Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

phog

The only issue I have with Farrell is that he seems to be another kick chase merchant and while we're winning that's fine it really isn't the moist attractive rugby to be watching or paying about €70 to watch.

CMOTDibbler

phog wrote: »

The only issue I have with Farrell is that he seems to be another kick chase merchant and while we're winning that's fine it really isn't the moist attractive rugby to be watching or paying about €70 to watch.

I think that's because of the weather

molloyjh

phog wrote: »

The only issue I have with Farrell is that he seems to be another kick chase merchant and while we're winning that's fine it really isn't the moist attractive rugby to be watching or paying about €70 to watch.

But we weren't playing a kick chase game in the RWC. In all of our games we were playing more expansively. Against France we were running it from our own half. Joe has said repeatedly that if you don't move forward you go backwards, in other words that we need to constantly revise how we play the game. We only really played that kick chase game in the 2014 AIs and 2015 6Ns. In every other tournament/series we haven't played that way.

errlloyd

I'll probably be quite disappointed if we don't see some currently uncapped players get meaningful game time in this tournament. Joe was very good at rotating in Leinster but hasn't been for Ireland.

In particular I think henshaw is the best centre in Ireland, but he's flexible and the other centre spot is certainly up for grabs, that is no slight on Payne, who is fantastic. For that spot I think we can look at a range of options, and I'd be disappointed if we didn't.

CMOTDibbler

errlloyd wrote: »

I'll probably be quite disappointed if we don't see some currently uncapped players get meaningful game time in this tournament. Joe was very good at rotating in Leinster but hasn't been for Ireland.

I think it's been forgotten that the squad size was limited by the RWC rules which tends to skew the stats a bit. If you look at the 2014/2015 season, Joe used a total of 45 players. In 2013/2014 it was 47.

It's at 34 so far this season, but I would expect (based on previous years) that this will jump significantly during the six nations.

The Rape of Lucretia

errlloyd wrote: »

I'll probably be quite disappointed if we don't see some currently uncapped players get meaningful game time in this tournament. Joe was very good at rotating in Leinster but hasn't been for Ireland.

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I think it's been forgotten that the squad size was limited by the RWC rules which tends to skew the stats a bit. If you look at the 2014/2015 season, Joe used a total of 45 players. In 2013/2014 it was 47.

It's at 34 so far this season, but I would expect (based on previous years) that this will jump significantly during the six nations.

I wouldnt bet on that at all, and (can only think of Ruddock off the top of my head), it will be any returning injuries, or injury replacements, that will get in. The replacement, most likely being already part of the inner circle.
Joe doesnt rotate through the 6N (Irish coaches tend not to - it is the be and end all of their jobs to go all out for every win - sackings usually come after a 6N failure) unless forced. A change or two if needed, but think his ideal is to pick the best 15 for the first game, and if they all remain healthy, not to have to make a change.
Who could break in :
Stander - yes, maybe at 6, but, without going back into a parallel universe argument again, he wont be replacing Heaslip
Moore - quite likely; effectively an injury returnee
Ruddock - possible; injury returnee
Trimble - I would guess, guaranteed
McCloskey - slightly possible
Ringrose - unlikely

The big miss is the lack of a backup scrumhalf. The most serious opening is at 9, but there simply isnt a contender of the level coming through yet.

Any other shuffling will come from within the established group of backups that arent 1st choice starters; Cronin, Murphy, Earlsie, Mads, etc,and I'd even be putting Healy in that group at this stage.

So maybe two or 3 returnees, and one new name into the mix.

The Rape of Lucretia

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

I wouldnt bet on that at all, and (can only think of Ruddock off the top of my head), it will be any returning injuries, or injury replacements, that will get in. The replacement, most likely being already part of the inner circle.
Joe doesnt rotate through the 6N (Irish coaches tend not to - it is the be and end all of their jobs to go all out for every win - sackings usually come after a 6N failure) unless forced. A change or two if needed, but think his ideal is to pick the best 15 for the first game, and if they all remain healthy, not to have to make a change.
Who could break in :
Stander - yes, maybe at 6, but, without going back into a parallel universe argument again, he wont be replacing Heaslip
Moore - quite likely; effectively an injury returnee
Ruddock - possible; injury returnee
Trimble - I would guess, guaranteed
McCloskey - slightly possible
Ringrose - unlikely

The big miss is the lack of a backup scrumhalf. The most serious opening is at 9, but there simply isnt a contender of the level coming through yet.

Any other shuffling will come from within the established group of backups that arent 1st choice starters; Cronin, Murphy, Earlsie, Mads, etc,and I'd even be putting Healy in that group at this stage.

So maybe two or 3 returnees, and one new name into the mix.

Going on form Reddan is pushing for a start at 9. He has been exceptional the last month whilst Murray seems quite off form.

Could see Marmion or Luke McGrath getting bench against Italy.

errlloyd

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Going on form Reddan is pushing for a start at 9. He has been exceptional the last month whilst Murray seems quite off form.

Could see Marmion or Luke McGrath getting bench against Italy.

Reddan has been okay, but he's been firing a lot of passes along the ground recently. He did it yesterday afternoon McGrath had been delivering well all afternoon.

The Rape of Lucretia

phog wrote: »

The only issue I have with Farrell is that he seems to be another kick chase merchant and while we're winning that's fine it really isn't the moist attractive rugby to be watching or paying about €70 to watch.

Winning rugby is what we want first and foremost. And I think Farrell being a kick and chase merchant, and defense first coach is the great news in this appointment. He will complement and enhance Joe very well.

We did change tack during the WC. To our detriment. It is very easy to criticise kick-chase, as one dimensional, limited, unspectacular, any 3bs club or Castle 4ths team can do it, we expect more elaborate skills from our best, etc.
But well executed, with the right players (yes, even the 'Daverage' or McFadden type player that doesnt get the wow gasp from the crowd) who can execute it well, can be very effective. It is the perfect long range both attack and defense weapon.
Handling, slick back moves, dancing or speeding wingers, etc, of course have their role. But best kept until the inside the opposition 22, and then only when the kick chase or pressure game has opened a weakness to exploit. Mauls, pick and go, are all only oriented in creating the desired kicking opportunity.

Rugby ability of course depends on fundamental athletic ablity, power, and speed. But also to a great degree on learned habits and reactions acquired over many hours drilling from a young age. For the above strategy, the likely best implementers, are full backs. I have said it here before, but the dream is to be able to field 5 top class fullbacks from 11-15. Yes, there will be some mix in the detail of their characteristics: a Payne will be a bit more elusive than a Rob, A Bowe will be a bit quicker than each, a Henshaw a bit better tackler than both.
But they are all variations on the 6'2"-6'4", solid tackler, kick retriever, bustler-over-from-10-yards theme.

More kick-chase please - a Grand Slam is there for the taking if we do it more and well enough.

The Rape of Lucretia

Deleted User wrote: »

Going on form Reddan is pushing for a start at 9. He has been exceptional the last month whilst Murray seems quite off form.

Could see Marmion or Luke McGrath getting bench against Italy.

Whats the story with Murray. Surely you arent seing any realistic possbility (whether on 'form' or not) that he drop to third in the order behind Reddan and Marms ?
If at all healthy, I cannot believe he will not be in all 23s.

CMOTDibbler

errlloyd wrote: »

Reddan has been okay, but he's been firing a lot of passes along the ground recently. He did it yesterday afternoon McGrath had been delivering well all afternoon.

The ball was like a bar of soap yesterday evening. There were an awful lot of handling errors as a result. The one along the ground was definitely in that category.

It's not something he does regularly, although when he's at high tempo, the odd pass can be a bit off target. Luke McGrath's passing (which has been his one major weakness) was excellent last night.

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

I wouldnt bet on that at all, and (can only think of Ruddock off the top of my head), it will be any returning injuries, or injury replacements, that will get in. The replacement, most likely being already part of the inner circle.
Joe doesnt rotate through the 6N (Irish coaches tend not to - it is the be and end all of their jobs to go all out for every win - sackings usually come after a 6N failure) unless forced. A change or two if needed, but think his ideal is to pick the best 15 for the first game, and if they all remain healthy, not to have to make a change.

Joe rotates through the use of the bench first. The chances will come to players who get a bench slot and it's not unlikely that McGrath or Marmion will get a start there. The same with the likes of JVdF or Stander. Granted that the 6N isn't a tournament to start new players, it still is an opportunity to get them in a training camp and see how they go from there.

wp_rathead

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Going on form Reddan is pushing for a start at 9. He has been exceptional the last month whilst Murray seems quite off form.

Could see Marmion or Luke McGrath getting bench against Italy.

Off form? He's been out injured I thought?

The Pheasant2

jacothelad wrote: »

I hope he is as talented as BOD - or even more so as I believe he is a high quality goal kicker.

Yep, kicked 26/27 in the Senior Cup; I do hope he is keeping the kicking up as I haven't seen him take a kick in any recent games.

sydneybound

bilston wrote: »

Don't think it's confirmed. If it was it would be on the IRFU website. It has only been speculated in the media so far.

Thanks for that. I won't rush off and get the flights just yet

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Brace yourselves....

BOD chiming in on the Stander issue. Says he "should start somewhere for Ireland next month"

Clegg

ToD taken a bad head knock, came back on and had to b subbed off a few minutes after. Don't think he's had enough game time this season to force his way into the 23 for Ireland.

aimee1

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Brace yourselves....

BOD chiming in on the Stander issue. Says he "should start somewhere for Ireland next month"

He must have signed for ikon during the week so.

Hardly a shocker to claim one of the best backrowers in the country should be considered for selection.

Heaslip, SOB, Ruddock, Stander, Henry. 4 of those 5 in match day squads.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

aimee1 wrote: »

He must have signed for ikon during the week so.

Hardly a shocker to claim one of the best backrowers in the country should be considered for selection.

Heaslip, SOB, Ruddock, Stander, Henry. 4 of those 5 in match day squads.

Not a controversial opinion but everything BOD says becomes headline news. Next week's topic of conversation is set, no doubt.

salmocab

Think in his short retirement BOD has forgotten how many players are on a rugby team.

The Rape of Lucretia

Clegg wrote: »

ToD taken a bad head knock, came back on and had to b subbed off a few minutes after. Don't think he's had enough game time this season to force his way into the 23 for Ireland.

Dont think he'd even be near it even if he played loads with everyone else fit.

sydthebeat

Munster were abysmal tonight. I think certain players could do with some schmidtification overt the next few weeks.

Swan Curry

salmocab wrote: »

Think in his short retirement BOD has forgotten how many players are on a rugby team.

The effects of concussion are often delayed

Clegg

Very disappointed by Zebo's performance. A lot of poor Munster players, but he was one of the most wasteful and looked like he gave up after Stade's second try.

aimee1

Clegg wrote: »

Very disappointed by Zebo's performance. A lot of poor Munster players, but he was one of the most wasteful and looked like he gave up after Stade's second try.

DK got crucified, with some justification, after the argies game but Zebo tonight was simply a disgrace. Earls I thought was good in the first half, had a few nice touches but was awful in the second half.

aimee1

aimee1 wrote: »

DK got crucified, with some justification, after the argies game but Zebo tonight was simply a disgrace. Earls I thought was good in the first half, had a few nice touches but was awful in the second half.

Considering how savagely slated DK has been recently on boards, he produced the wing performance of the weekend so far from an Irish province, and undoubtedly a contender for try of the season.

Murray in the 23 and Stander as a back up option but really I don't see anyone else from Munster deserving a green Jersey after recent performances (especially tonight).

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Considering how savagely slated DK has been recently on boards, he produced the wing performance of the weekend so far from an Irish province, and undoubtedly a contender for try of the season.

Murray in the 23 and Stander as a back up option but really I don't see anyone else from Munster deserving a green Jersey after recent performances (especially tonight).

I think Earls has a good chance. Cronin too who is a quality player.

Zebo has just played himself out of any involvement barring injury.

Clegg

Murray has to start for Ireland, he's one of our onfield leaders and I think he plays to a higher standard in green than he does red. What's a real worry is that there are only three Munster players who have realistic chances of making the 23, Murray, Stander and Earls. The rest just arent good enough. The decline has been stark.

Ok that might be a bit harsh as they do have some decent players like Kilcoyne and Cronin, but there are better players at other provinces. Things aren't looking good for Munster.

aimee1

Clegg wrote: »

Murray has to start for Ireland, he's one of our onfield leaders and I think he plays to a higher standard in green than he does red. What's a real worry is that there are only three Munster players who have realistic chances of making the 23, Murray, Stander and Earls. The rest just arent good enough. The decline has been stark.

Ok that might be a bit harsh as they do have some decent players like Kilcoyne and Cronin, but there are better players at other provinces. Things aren't looking good for Munster.

Kilcoyne over Healy currently on form anyway

Bazzo

As a Connacht supporter I feel obligated to pipe up with Buckley. I rate Kilcoyne and Cronin but I really do think Buckley may be the best of the 3. I don't remember him ever having a bad game for Connacht.

aimee1

Bazzo wrote: »

As a Connacht supporter I feel obligated to pipe up with Buckley. I rate Kilcoyne and Cronin but I really do think Buckley may be the best of the 3. I don't remember him ever having a bad game for Connacht.

is Buckley fit again?

Bazzo

aimee1 wrote: »

is Buckley fit again?

He's 1-2 weeks out. He recovered at a phenomenal pace. He was initially expected to be out for 12 weeks and it's looking like he'll be back after 6.

1eg0a3xv7b82of

Deleted User wrote: »

Considering how savagely slated DK has been recently on boards, he produced the wing performance of the weekend so far from an Irish province, and undoubtedly a contender for try of the season.

Murray in the 23 and Stander as a back up option but really I don't see anyone else from Munster deserving a green Jersey after recent performances (especially tonight).

The Irish team has and never will be picked on form, if it was Marshall, McCloskey would be the centre partnership every day of the week and twice on sundays,

Injuries yes, form no.

aimee1

Leandro Round Billboard wrote: »

The Irish team has and never will be picked on form, if it was Marshall, McCloskey would be the centre partnership every day of the week and twice on sundays,

Injuries yes, form no.

attention to details and other things outside of a players positional role are also considered so i think there is a few guys playing for munster today who might find themselves in pro12 action during the 6n

bilston

If he is fit Murray will start for Ireland. Outside that there are no guarentees for the other Munster players. Zebo is nowhere near where he needs to be at the minute and while I'm a fan of Earls on the wing I think he would behind Trimble and Fitzgerald who would be my wing picks. A lot depends on the centres though as Fitz could end up there which could allow Earls in or maybe Save Kearney. That's how I see it anyway.

1eg0a3xv7b82of

aimee1 wrote: »

attention to details and other things outside of a players positional role are also considered so i think there is a few guys playing for munster today who might find themselves in pro12 action during the 6n

there is but form has zero to do with how Schmidt picks his 23/ starting 15.
Schmidt knows his matchday 23 for every game well in advance and only injuries change that 23, but even then he knows exactly who will be called in.
Lets see if McGrath starts at loosehead with cronin on bench- they should
if Donnacha Ryan makes the 23 - he should not
if McCloskey starts at 12 - he should

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

bilston wrote: »

If he is fit Murray will start for Ireland. Outside that there are no guarentees for the other Munster players. Zebo is nowhere near where he needs to be at the minute and while I'm a fan of Earls on the wing I think he would behind Trimble and Fitzgerald who would be my wing picks. A lot depends on the centres though as Fitz could end up there which could allow Earls in or maybe Save Kearney. That's how I see it anyway.

I know Schmidt isn't one to just throw new people into a team unless it necessary but it's hard to see how he could look past McCloskey in the centre, assuming Payne or Henshaw aren't fit. Which should remove Fitzgerald from the centre conversation. Although I know he has been playing there a fair bit for Leinster recently. Earls could maybe take the last bench spot. I see no need for Zebo unless Rob K is a fitness worry but even then I'd rather see Henshaw or Payne used back there, if necessary and with McCloskey/Fitzgerald as really good centre options I think that would work.

Ultimately I'd hope that Schmidt knows a few weeks out who is or isn't fit and can spend the training camps working with the players who he intends to play. Mainly I'm thinking about Payne here. I'd rather not have anyone be a "hopeful" to be available and then have to make last minute changes.

Murray has been referenced a few times now, I don't think anyone is suggesting he shouldn't start.

aimee1

Leandro Round Billboard wrote: »

there is but form has zero to do with how Schmidt picks his 23/ starting 15.
Schmidt knows his matchday 23 for every game well in advance and only injuries change that 23, but even then he knows exactly who will be called in.
Lets see if McGrath starts at loosehead with cronin on bench- they should
if Donnacha Ryan makes the 23 - he should not
if McCloskey starts at 12 - he should

Define form. JS will pick his team based on who he feels best fulfils the role he wants, that in itself is form.

Cronin? Think Kilcoyne, Healy would be rated ahead of him tbh

Why would Donncha Ryan not be considered? Henderson is injured, so Toner starts alongside who? McCarthy/Tuohy/Ryan are the next options

Pink Fairy

Harley Uptight Light wrote: »

Murray has been referenced a few times now, I don't think anyone is suggesting he shouldn't start.

I saw someone suggesting reddan should start and that Murray should be in the 23, was it the usual suspects saying that?

Tox56

Pink Fairy wrote: »

I saw someone suggesting reddan should start and that Murray should be in the 23, was it the usual suspects saying that?

Ive seen it said Reddan could start, not that he should

1eg0a3xv7b82of

aimee1 wrote: »

Define form. JS will pick his team based on who he feels best fulfils the role he wants, that in itself is form.

Cronin? Think Kilcoyne, Healy would be rated ahead of him tbh

Why would Donncha Ryan not be considered? Henderson is injured, so Toner starts alongside who? McCarthy/Tuohy/Ryan are the next options

Donnacha Ryan is in poor form, Murray is in poor form, the Irish team is not picked on form. Murray will start every game and D Ryan will at the very least make matchday 23's.
Look at Bowe and Healy at the world Cup, both were not playing well yet were first choice.

I am saying Schmidt has his first 15 which if they were constantly fit, he would constantly select. Their form would mean Zip, if Bowe was fit he would start the 6 nations.
Form has nothing to do with nothing.

The Rape of Lucretia

Leandro Round Billboard wrote: »

Donnacha Ryan is in poor form, Murray is in poor form, the Irish team is not picked on form. Murray will start every game and D Ryan will at the very least make matchday 23's.
Look at Bowe and Healy at the world Cup, both were not playing well yet were first choice.

I am saying Schmidt has his first 15 which if they were constantly fit, he would constantly select. Their form would mean Zip, if Bowe was fit he would start the 6 nations.
Form has nothing to do with nothing.

I wouldnt worry about form from any of the Munster players. Like Leinster last year, they are a sinking ship, and any good players are due a free pass. 'Form', if you believe in it, will return when they are playing with other quality players around them, and back on the firm ground of Planet Joe.

1eg0a3xv7b82of

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

I wouldnt worry about form from any of the Munster players. Like Leinster last year, they are a sinking ship, and any good players are due a free pass. 'Form', if you believe in it, will return when they are playing with other quality players around them, and back on the firm ground of Planet Joe.

I agree, Murray for instance would have to completely forget what the game of rugby is before Ireland could afford to drop him from the first 15 and even then:)
Murray is in a different league to anything Ireland has or ever has had at 9.

mfceiling

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

I wouldnt worry about form from any of the Munster players. Like Leinster last year, they are a sinking ship, and any good players are due a free pass. 'Form', if you believe in it, will return when they are playing with other quality players around them, and back on the firm ground of Planet Joe.

If JS picks a couple of Munster players for the 6N is he biased and showing favouritism when there are other players available at other provinces?

wp_rathead

venjur is the only poster I've seen suggesting Reddan could start ahead of Murray- thought Murray had a decent game today considering what was going on around him. Was his first game back since Leicester away

wp_rathead

wp_rathead wrote: »

venjur is the only poster I've seen suggesting Reddan could start ahead of Murray- thought Murray had a decent game today considering what was going on around him. Was his first game back since Leicester away

Murray is going to start. Reddan looks to have put his really poor early season form behind him so I suspect he'll be used from the bench a bit.

former total

Ah yeah Murray will definitely start. If nothing else he's much better suited to the Joe game plan than Reddan.

The Rape of Lucretia

mfceiling wrote: »

If JS picks a couple of Munster players for the 6N is he biased and showing favouritism when there are other players available at other provinces?

No. He is being rational. Murray, to pick the obvious example, is still fundamentally head and shoulders above Joe's other SH options. To drop him because he doesnt look to be playing well, whith oodles of borderline Pro12 level players around him, in team with collapsing morale, and one being coached by a coach of no proven skill or record, would be crazy.
If he's fit. He starts. If he is borderline fit, he still starts. Correct decision.

molloyjh

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

No. He is being rational. Murray, to pick the obvious example, is still fundamentally head and shoulders above Joe's other SH options. To drop him because he doesnt look to be playing well, whith oodles of borderline Pro12 level players around him, in team with collapsing morale, and one being coached by a coach of no proven skill or record, would be crazy.
If he's fit. He starts. If he is borderline fit, he still starts. Correct decision.

I think you'll find mfceiling was referencing the complaints made last season about Leinster players being selected despite Leinster's form and questioning whether we'll see double standards from that perspective.

gmurphy70

Will this 6 nations have the least amount of Munster players involved? For me Murray,Stander,Earls,Ryan with only one starter. I thought the front row for Munster were dreadful tonight,wouldn't have any of these near Irish team.