Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

aimee1

aimee1 wrote: »

Noel reid & keith earls v Roberts and Davies

Good god

.ak

I'd imagine it'd be fitz and earls if henshaw isn't fit. It should be mccloskey and fitz tho...

Journeyman_1

I really hope its not Fitz and Earls, that would be a terrible selection decision imo. I completely could understand not starting McCloskey when the incumbent centres are fit, even if he is a slightly better choice, due to the unknowns around how he will react to Test level etc. but when both first choice centres are out, it forces your hand. A better familiarity with a system should not outweigh the clear difference in abilities in the position. I like Earls, he's a good player, but he is just not a Test level centre. McCloskey may be, so give him a shot. Failing that stick Marshall back in.

.ak

Mccloskey for me is the best centre in Ireland right now, I'm a massive fan. But I think dumping him into a game against Wales would be a massive risk. Like I said, fitz and mccloskey should be starting in my mind, but then again with everything that's at risk id completely understand not starting him.

Marshall's a good shout actually.

awec

Fitz and Earls would make me cry. I can think of few combinations I'd rather see less.

sydthebeat

assuming payne is fit

fitz / payne
mc closkey / payne
mc closkey / fitz
mc closkey / marshall


are all combinations superior to fitz / earls

dub_skav

awec wrote: »

Fitz and Earls would make me cry. I can think of few combinations I'd rather see less.

Madigan and Ferg?

aimee1

.ak wrote: »

Mccloskey for me is the best centre in Ireland right now, I'm a massive fan. But I think dumping him into a game against Wales would be a massive risk. Like I said, fitz and mccloskey should be starting in my mind, but then again with everything that's at risk id completely understand not starting him.

Marshall's a good shout actually.

Would mccloskey be a massive risk? He is playing regular rugby in his preferred position.

WeleaseWoderick

If Henshaw is out then I'd love to see McCloskey start against Wales. I'd also be tempted to play Luke Marshall alongside him too as they've looked a very impressive partnership this season.

To be honest I'd be happy with any combination of Henshaw, Payne, Fitzgerald, McCloskey and Marshall at the moment. Think it is possibly a few months too early to throw Ringrose into international rugby but hopefully can add him to that list for the summer tour.

Hoping not to see Earls moved to centre again unless we have a complete injury crisis. He's a great winger but never have I been confident with him in the centre.

awec

dub_skav wrote: »

Madigan and Ferg?

Yea that's definitely worse.

Yeah_Right

WeleaseWoderick wrote: »

If Henshaw is out then I'd love to see McCloskey start against Wales. I'd also be tempted to play Luke Marshall alongside him too as they've looked a very impressive partnership this season.

To be honest I'd be happy with any combination of Henshaw, Payne, Fitzgerald, McCloskey and Marshall at the moment. Think it is possibly a few months too early to throw Ringrose into international rugby but hopefully can add him to that list for the summer tour.

Hoping not to see Earls moved to centre again unless we have a complete injury crisis. He's a great winger but never have I been confident with him in the centre.

I pretty much agree with everything here.

Bazzo

sydthebeat wrote: »

assuming payne is fit

fitz / payne
mc closkey / payne
mc closkey / fitz
mc closkey / marshall


are all combinations superior to fitz / earls

If Payne is fit enough to play Henshaw will be too. After the scan(yesterday) the surgeon recommended another 1-2 weeks before returning to playing matches(he's already training).

1eg0a3xv7b82of

at moment its henshaw/mccloskey, if henshaw out then it should be mccloskey/marshall.

jacothelad

Cave is fit again afaik.

molloyjh

aimee1 wrote: »

Would mccloskey be a massive risk? He is playing regular rugby in his preferred position.

He's been playing in his preferred position for a different team at a totally different level outside a different out-half playing a different game.

Everybody sees the guy playing really well and just seems to forget all this other stuff that is actually relevant. He should feature for Ireland this year and if he can carry his Ulster form through should definitely be in with a shout to take the 12 jersey going forward. But throwing him directly in to international rugby when he has never so much as trained with the squad before now is a risk. If he does well enough in training to force Joes hand then great, but I wouldn't expect him to start at all.

Bazzo wrote: »

If Payne is fit enough to play Henshaw will be too. After the scan(yesterday) the surgeon recommended another 1-2 weeks before returning to playing matches(he's already training).

That would see him get at 1, maybe 2 games, before the 6 Nations. Is that enough to have him straight back into the squad?

.ak

.ak wrote: »

I'd imagine it'd be fitz and earls if henshaw isn't fit. It should be mccloskey and fitz tho...

I'd rather take a potential unknown risk on McCloskey then take a definite known risk on Earls. If Payne is back over the next week or two then himself and Fitz should be fine.

I have total faith in Joe, but unless every international, ERC and Pro12 centre in the country is injured he shouldn't be letting Earls anywhere near the 13 jersey.

Bazzo

molloyjh wrote: »

He's been playing in his preferred position for a different team at a totally different level outside a different out-half playing a different game.

That would see him get at 1, maybe 2 games, before the 6 Nations. Is that enough to have him straight back into the squad?

Personally I'd say he'll be fine, his fitness won't really have been affected and he's been participating in at least some sort of training for the last week or so now. I was moreso pointing out to that poster though that Henshaw and Payne will be back to full availability at similar times so if Payne is considered viable Henshaw should be too.

awec

jacothelad wrote: »

Cave is fit again afaik.

Sure what does that matter?

Schmidt would stick Earls at 13 again before he'd pick Cave. :rolleyes:

aimee1

molloyjh wrote: »

He's been playing in his preferred position for a different team at a totally different level outside a different out-half playing a different game.

Henshaw? I know he had the advantage of camp involvement the previous 12 months but he made the same jump. I think its a risk, just dont think its a massive one, and Henshaw went from 15/13 to 12.

aimee1

aimee1 wrote: »

Henshaw? I know he had the advantage of camp involvement the previous 12 months but he made the same jump. I think its a risk, just dont think its a massive one, and Henshaw went from 15/13 to 12.

He did but that only proves that it was something he was capable of. For all the good will in the world, the systems may not come as fast to McCloskey.

Don't get me wrong, he could learn to swim at international level even faster, I'm just making the point that one person making the transition doesn't equate to everyone making the transition.

awec

I swear I hate this talk of "systems". You would think players need a phd to play for Ireland sometimes.

So what if he hasn't played outside Sexton, or inside Henshaw or whoever? That's what training is for.

McCloskey has shone all season at 12, including European level. If we can't go Henshaw Payne (which I really, really hope we don't go with anyway) then he is definitely the best option at 12. The guy can do no more than what he has done to show that. He has been the best centre in Ireland all season.

awec

awec wrote: »

I swear I hate this talk of "systems". You would think players need a phd to play for Ireland sometimes.

The "system" is what has won us 2 six nations in a row. It's not about how complicated it is, it's about how familiar everyone is with it so that decisions made on the field resonate across 15 separate individuals.

Pretty much every player who has ever been coached by Joe has talked about how unique it is and how precise it is. We all want to see talent come through, but people don't talk about "familiarity with the setup / systems" for the craic, it's because of direct quotes from team members and coaches.

jacothelad

awec wrote: »

I swear I hate this talk of "systems". You would think players need a phd to play for Ireland sometimes.

So what if he hasn't played outside Sexton, or inside Henshaw or whoever? That's what training is for.

McCloskey has shone all season at 12, including European level. If we can't go Henshaw Payne (which I really, really hope we don't go with anyway) then he is definitely the best option at 12. The guy can do no more than what he has done to show that. He has been the best centre in Ireland all season.

Here's a novel thought. If Sexton is the best 10 in the N.H., wouldn't McCloskey be even better playing next to him and then next to Ireland's second best 10, Madigan than next to Jackson. I'd also say, based on what we've seen, McC looks at least as effective as Henshaw....at least. However, I'd be very happy to see Fitz at 12 and Earls at 13 with McCloskey, Cave and Marshall at Ulster during the 6 Nations. None of the Ulster guys were good enough for Ireland during the RWC and why would they suddenly be good enough now. If Payne is fit then he and Fitzgerald should be the centres.

I just hope McCloskey makes the reduced squad tbh

awec

jacothelad wrote: »

Here's a novel thought. If Sexton is the best 10 in the N.H., wouldn't McCloskey be even better playing next to him and then next to Ireland's second best 10, Madigan than next to Jackson. I'd also say, based on what we've seen, McC looks at least as effective as Henshaw....at least. However, I'd be very happy to see Fitz at 12 and Earls at 13 with McCloskey, Cave and Marshall at Ulster during the 6 Nations. None of the Ulster guys were good enough for Ireland during the RWC and why would they suddenly be good enough now. If Payne is fit then he and Fitzgerald should be the centres.

He is at least as effective as Henshaw at 12 because Henshaw is not really a 12 (another player played out of position for Ireland).

There's no reason why McCloskey couldn't be at least as effective for Ireland outside Sexton as he is for Ulster outside Jackson, and I don't think we need week after week of training camp for him to figure it out.

Fitz Payne doesn't inspire me either. Schmidt is most likely to go with something like this but I think we'd be mad to overlook McCloskey at this stage, whatever about these "systems".

typhoony

Henshaw can do a job in center, but he's a very good 15. I'd go as far as saying had he been playing in that position against Argentina we may have seen a different outcome especially for the 1st try that we conceded

Moflojo

The only person who should be worried about McCloskey making the Ireland team is Rob Kearney. If McCloskey plays at 12 it frees up Henshaw or Payne (but hopefully Henshaw) to play at fullback, which is the natural position for both players.

Henshaw emerged as a fullback originally and is a far better all-round fullback than Kearney. Payne is only marginally behind Henshaw as a fullback, where Henshaw beats him in all-round athleticism. Both players are exceptional at reading the game and coming into the attacking line from fullback. Both also have a heads-up approach to returning a kick, as they have the ability to identify & run at space, set up a counter, kick-chase, or kick for position (R Kearney can only kick-chase or run into 2+ tacklers).

I'd cement McCloskey at 12 and put any one of Payne, L Marshall, L Fitzgerald or even Earls outside him, and put Henshaw at 15 where he will run rampant.

.ak

.ak wrote: »

I'd imagine it'd be fitz and earls if henshaw isn't fit. It should be mccloskey and fitz tho...

Don't see much basis for it being Earls, would be a ridiculous selection. I know he put him there in the RWC but he was miles out of his depth, I'd imagine Schmidt noticed that too

jacothelad

Harley Uptight Light wrote: »

Don't see much basis for it being Earls, would be a ridiculous selection. I know he put him there in the RWC but he was miles out of his depth, I'd imagine Schmidt noticed that too

Yes but Earls is familiar with the system...that's more important apparently than actually being good at what you do.

errlloyd

The McCloskey, Ringrose, Henshaw (12,13,15) will be a reality at some point in the next 3 seasons IMHO.

jacothelad

Moflojo wrote: »

The only person who should be worried about McCloskey making the Ireland team is Rob Kearney. If McCloskey plays at 12 it frees up Henshaw or Payne (but hopefully Henshaw) to play at fullback, which is the natural position for both players.

Henshaw emerged as a fullback originally and is a far better all-round fullback than Kearney. Payne is only marginally behind Henshaw as a fullback, where Henshaw beats him in all-round athleticism. Both players are exceptional at reading the game and coming into the attacking line from fullback. Both also have a heads-up approach to returning a kick, as they have the ability to identify & run at space, set up a counter, kick-chase, or kick for position (R Kearney can only kick-chase or run into 2+ tacklers).

I'd cement McCloskey at 12 and put any one of Payne, L Marshall, L Fitzgerald or even Earls outside him, and put Henshaw at 15 where he will run rampant.

Well, the most accomplished and most effective 13 at Ulster is Cave. Ask any Ulster supporter or any club coach or player who is the best 13 here and the answer will be unanimous. Each of the others has strengths in that position but Cave is a more complete player. The fact that Schmidt would rather play Earls there is i.m.o., a major black mark against the coach.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

If I was Schmidt now I'd be working on the assumption that neither Payne or Henshaw will be available for the first few games, at least, and put all my resources into getting McCloskey caught up. You've got Payne up there with him on a daily basis, half an hour after Ulster training every day to go through stuff with him can't hurt. Kiss will already have been putting some of his own system, presumably quite similar to Ireland's, into place with the Ulster lads.

Worst case scenario is Henshaw and Payne are both fit come the Wales game and McCloskey is a viable option for the bench.

Moflojo

errlloyd wrote: »

The McCloskey, Ringrose, Henshaw (12,13,15) will be a reality at some point in the next 3 seasons IMHO.

Probably next year's 6N, barring injury or a horrendous loss of form by one of them (or unbelievable run of form from an incumbent).

Mr.Applepie

awec wrote: »

I swear I hate this talk of "systems". You would think players need a phd to play for Ireland sometimes.

So what if he hasn't played outside Sexton, or inside Henshaw or whoever? That's what training is for.

McCloskey has shone all season at 12, including European level. If we can't go Henshaw Payne (which I really, really hope we don't go with anyway) then he is definitely the best option at 12. The guy can do no more than what he has done to show that. He has been the best centre in Ireland all season.

Until he moves to Leinster and proves it I think there will be doubts over him.

jacothelad

Mr.Applepie wrote: »

Until he moves to Leinster and proves it I think there will be doubts over him.

I doubt that McCloskey is a weak brained glory hunter.....:D Now Payne on the other hand has played in blue before. Henshaw, Payne and 'jesus' Ringrose....That's a combo that Leinster could get along with.

Moflojo

jacothelad wrote: »

Well, the most accomplished and most effective 13 at Ulster is Cave. Ask any Ulster supporter or any club coach or player who is the best 13 here and the answer will be unanimous. Each of the others has strengths in that position but Cave is a more complete player. The fact that Schmidt would rather play Earls there is i.m.o., a major black mark against the coach.

I think Cave is out of the reckoning at Ireland level at this stage. There were legitimate and logical grounds to play him during the world cup when both Henshaw and Payne were injured but Schmidt went with Earls and Fitzgerald on both occasions. At this point I reckon Cave is behind Henshaw, Payne, McCloskey, Fitzgerald, Earls, Marshall, Ringrose and Madigan in terms of Irish centre selection. (Sorry Ulster people)

awec

Moflojo wrote: »

I think Cave is out of the reckoning at Ireland level at this stage. There were legitimate and logical grounds to play him during the world cup when both Henshaw and Payne were injured but Schmidt went with Earls and Fitzgerald on both occasions. At this point I reckon Cave is behind Henshaw, Payne, McCloskey, Fitzgerald, Earls, Marshall, Ringrose and Madigan in terms of Irish centre selection. (Sorry Ulster people)

We know that.

We just hope that Schmidt doesn't waste everyone's time and call him up to hold some tackle bags. If he has no intention of playing him then at least let Ulster keep him.

jacothelad

jacothelad wrote: »

Yes but Earls is familiar with the system...that's more important apparently than actually being good at what you do.

Seriously, are you getting annoyed at a selection that hasn't been made yet? Cmon.

former total

Is Cave even fit? I haven't seen him in yonks.

If Payne is out, I'd move Henshaw out to 13 and play Fitzgerald at 12.

jm08

Harley Uptight Light wrote: »

Don't see much basis for it being Earls, would be a ridiculous selection. I know he put him there in the RWC but he was miles out of his depth, I'd imagine Schmidt noticed that too

I'd imagine he might have noticed that Earls picked up man of the match in the first warm up game v. Wales in the centre.

aimee1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

He did but that only proves that it was something he was capable of. For all the good will in the world, the systems may not come as fast to McCloskey.

Don't get me wrong, he could learn to swim at international level even faster, I'm just making the point that one person making the transition doesn't equate to everyone making the transition.

I think playing Henshaw at 12 was a bigger risk then putting SMcC in would be. His positional awareness makes up for lack of system awareness.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

jm08 wrote: »

I'd imagine he might have noticed that Earls picked up man of the match in the first warm up game v. Wales in the centre.

That match where Wales fielded a 3rd choice team?

aimee1

jm08 wrote: »

I'd imagine he might have noticed that Earls picked up man of the match in the first warm up game v. Wales in the centre.

Hopefully he also noticed the multiple missed tackles and multiple dropped balls too.

jm08

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

That match where Wales fielded a 3rd choice team?

You can only beat what is in front of you, but no one can ignore that he was regarded as the best player on the pitch.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

jm08 wrote: »

You can only beat what is in front of you, but no one can ignore that he was regarded as the best player on the pitch.

So if he got named man of the match playing against Clontarf u12's it would count the same?

jm08

aimee1 wrote: »

Hopefully he also noticed the multiple missed tackles and multiple dropped balls too.

Not in that game.;)

former total

Well, Earls was brutal in that match, the MOTM award was partly a sympathy vote as it was his first international in two years.

That said, Joe still proceeded to pick him at 13 in the RWC so it obviously didn't deter him too much.

I wouldn't be shocked to see Earls at 13 in the 6N. It's more likely than Marshall IMO.

jm08

jm08 wrote: »

You can only beat what is in front of you, but no one can ignore that he was regarded as the best player on the pitch.

God only knows why I'm bothering but are you saying you want to see Earls at 13 in the 6N or what?

jm08

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

So if he got named man of the match playing against Clontarf u12's it would count the same?

What counts is that he was deemed to be man of the match in and Irish team that had players like Darren Cave, Rory Best, Iain Henderson and Jamie Heaslip.

shuffol

If we picked Fitz/Earls in midfield I don't see how anybody could have faith in them performing well and we'd be gaining nothing in the long term. I'd have far more faith in McCloskey/AN other, we'd also have the benefit of giving a long term option experience.

Also on the need for players to go through purgatory in camp before ascending to the first team. Did that occur with Payne, I thought he became eligible and then went straight in against S.A.