Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 13-01-2016 2:09pm

jm08 wrote: »

What counts is that he was deemed to be man of the match in and Irish team that had players like Darren Cave, Rory Best, Iain Henderson and Jamie Heaslip.

So.... if the entire Ireland squad played Clontarf u12's it would count the same?

jm08 · 13-01-2016 2:10pm

Harley Uptight Light wrote: »

God only knows why I'm bothering but are you saying you want to see Earls at 13 in the 6N or what?

No, I'm not bothered where he plays.

I'm objecting to the slating of a player with little or no foundation for no other reason than big up the next big thing.

Podge_irl · 13-01-2016 2:10pm

I must say, the whole issue around Cave in the World Cup is definitely the things that confuses me most/I disagree with most in terms of what Schmidt has done. It didn't really make sense to me and I think Cave would have been a much better bet at 13 (but what do I know!?)

aimee1 · 13-01-2016 2:12pm

shuffol wrote: »

If we picked Fitz/Earls in midfield I don't see how anybody could have faith in them performing well and we'd be gaining nothing in the long term. I'd have far more faith in McCloskey/AN other, we'd also have the benefit of giving a long term option experience.

Also on the need for players to go through purgatory in camp before ascending to the first team. Did that occur with Payne, I thought he became eligible and then went straight in against S.A.

Stander too..... Maybe?

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 13-01-2016 2:13pm

jm08 wrote: »

No, I'm not bothered where he plays.

I'm objecting to the slating of a player with little or no foundation for no other reason than big up the next big thing.

The fact he was very poor at 13 in the actual World Cup games is reasonable foundation to object.

jm08 · 13-01-2016 2:13pm

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

So.... if the entire Ireland squad played Clontarf u12's it would count the same?

Look, I don't know why you brought Clontarf U12s up as they clearly have nothing to do with international rugby.

aimee1 · 13-01-2016 2:14pm

jm08 wrote: »

What counts is that he was deemed to be man of the match in and Irish team that had players like Darren Cave, Rory Best, Iain Henderson and Jamie Heaslip.

by who? Journos? A Sponsor? They mean zero. Absolutely nothing.

jacothelad · 13-01-2016 2:14pm

Moflojo wrote: »

I think Cave is out of the reckoning at Ireland level at this stage. There were legitimate and logical grounds to play him during the world cup when both Henshaw and Payne were injured but Schmidt went with Earls and Fitzgerald on both occasions. At this point I reckon Cave is behind Henshaw, Payne, McCloskey, Fitzgerald, Earls, Marshall, Ringrose and Madigan in terms of Irish centre selection. (Sorry Ulster people)

We know. As Cave once rather naively said something about his face not fitting.

jm08 · 13-01-2016 2:16pm

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

The fact he was very poor at 13 in the actual World Cup games is reasonable foundation to object.

Joe didn't think so. In fact he played him ahead of Cave, Fitzgerald and Henshaw as an outside centre even though he was recovering from a broken jaw.

Now, what does that say about how Schmidt rates them as centres?

Podge_irl · 13-01-2016 2:16pm

A MoM award in a major game is of relatively little importance. One in a warm up game means absolute diddly squat.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 13-01-2016 2:17pm

jm08 wrote: »

Look, I don't know why you brought Clontarf U12s up as they clearly have nothing to do with international rugby.

You said you can only play what's in front of you . We're as likely to come face to face with Clontarf u12's the first week of the 6 Nations as we are to face the Welsh side we played that day.

jm08 · 13-01-2016 2:18pm

aimee1 wrote: »

by who? Journos? A Sponsor? They mean zero. Absolutely nothing.

Its usually an ex pro who awards Man of the Match awards.

They only mean nothing when they don't support your argument

Podge_irl · 13-01-2016 2:18pm

jm08 wrote: »

Joe didn't think so. In fact he played him ahead of Cave, Fitzgerald and Henshaw as an outside centre even though he was recovering from a broken jaw.

Now, what does that say about how Schmidt rates them as centres?

It says that he rates them wildly differently from me apparently.

Putting Henshaw there is silly though - he's clearly rated higher as a centre he was just playing 12.

Bazzo · 13-01-2016 2:18pm

jm08 wrote: »

Joe didn't think so. In fact he played him ahead of Cave, Fitzgerald and Henshaw as an outside centre even though he was recovering from a broken jaw.

Now, what does that say about how Schmidt rates them as centres?

Is this the boards equivalent of groundhog day?

Podge_irl · 13-01-2016 2:19pm

jm08 wrote: »

Its usually an ex pro who awards Man of the Match awards.

They only mean nothing when they don't support your argument

No, they always mean nothing.

I don't abdicate my opinions to anyone who happens to be on TV.

aimee1 · 13-01-2016 2:19pm

jm08 wrote: »

Its usually an ex pro who awards Man of the Match awards.

They only mean nothing when they don't support your argument

Was frankie sheehan or quinlan covering this match then

jacothelad · 13-01-2016 2:19pm

aimee1 wrote: »

Stander too..... Maybe?

I'd have Stander in the starting 15. I think he's the kind of player to spark those around him.

Podge_irl wrote: »

A MoM award in a major game is of relatively little importance. One in a warm up game means absolute diddly squat.

Ea4rls got that MOTM on the back of a Trimble tackle that set him up for a run in try. I think he scored 2 that day but was pretty poor apart from scoring.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 13-01-2016 2:20pm

jm08 wrote: »

Joe didn't think so. In fact he played him ahead of Cave, Fitzgerald and Henshaw as an outside centre even though he was recovering from a broken jaw.

Now, what does that say about how Schmidt rates them as centres?

We're not talking about how Schmidt rates them. We're talking about our own personal opinions on his performances at 13 during the World Cup.

jm08 · 13-01-2016 2:21pm

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

You said you can only play what's in front of you . We're as likely to come face to face with Clontarf u12's the first week of the 6 Nations as we are to face the Welsh side we played that day.

I didn't think you could manage to drag the Clontarf u12s into it.

I was thinking more on teams at international level when I posted that.

Wales are notoriously slow to start and frequently need a game to warm up. They will have even less time to prepare for the 6Ns as they did for the world cup!

aimee1 · 13-01-2016 2:25pm

jm08 wrote: »

I'm objecting to the slating of a player with little or no foundation for no other reason than big up the next big thing.

Eh kettle, Stander, pot, black, Heaslip, jm08 :cool:

13-01-2016 2:25pm

There was even question marks over Earls getting MOTM for that Wales warm-up at the time. He mixed the sublime with downright awful.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 13-01-2016 2:26pm

jm08 wrote: »

I didn't think you could manage to drag the Clontarf u12s into it.
I was thinking more on teams at international level when I posted that.

Wales are notoriously slow to start and frequently need a game to warm up. They will have even less time to prepare for the 6Ns as they did for the world cup!

Wales were playing a 3rd strength team that day because they needed to cut players. Nothing to do with starting slow. We will not be facing anything resembling that Wales team in the 6 Nations so it's ridiculous to point to any players performance that day as an indicator of their ability to do, or indeed not do, the job required in a certain position.

Your logic, as usual, is ridiculous at best and non existent most of the time.

jm08 · 13-01-2016 2:27pm

jacothelad wrote: »

I'd have Stander in the starting 15. I think he's the kind of player to spark those around him.

Ea4rls got that MOTM on the back of a Trimble tackle that set him up for a run in try. I think he scored 2 that day but was pretty poor apart from scoring.

1 try, like Cave, Zebo, Heaslip & Felix Jones.

Teferi · 13-01-2016 2:27pm

jm08 wrote: »

I'm objecting to the slating of a player with little or no foundation for no other reason than big up the next big thing.

The lack of self awareness in this sentence is, quite frankly, alarming.

13-01-2016 2:30pm

jm08 wrote: »

I'd imagine he might have noticed that Earls picked up man of the match in the first warm up game v. Wales in the centre.

That "Man of the Match" Performance:

https://streamable.com/d76r

jm08 · 13-01-2016 2:30pm

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Wales were playing a 3rd strength team that day because they needed to cut players. Nothing to do with starting slow. We will not be facing anything resembling that Wales team in the 6 Nations so it's ridiculous to point to any players performance that day as an indicator of their ability to do, or indeed not do, the job required in a certain position.

Your logic, as usual, is ridiculous at best and non existent most of the time.

If you check out Wales's record you will see they frequently lose the first game of their campaign, particularly if away from home. They are slow starters.

And for the record, I don't know where you got the idea that Wales would field a similar team in the 6Ns.

sydthebeat · 13-01-2016 2:30pm

based on current form, not a chance Earls is in the running for a centre spot with the national team.

realistically mccloskey is actually right up Joes street for what he wants in a 1st centre and for how he wants his game played out.
Strong runner, hard to turn over, strong defensively compared to what he would be up against, an asset in a choke tackle.

as long as hes hitting his marks in training hes definitely a realistic selection choice for this 6N.

The Rape of Lucretia · 13-01-2016 2:33pm

jm08 wrote: »

I'd imagine he might have noticed that Earls picked up man of the match in the first warm up game v. Wales in the centre.

Joe take notice of who gets man of the match from a former player or journo live at a game as to whether his man played well and should be there again ??????
I have heard it all now.

With Joe's attention to detail and analysis, he probably has a spreadsheet compiled by one of his analysts that keeps track of man of the match winners for each position, their frequency, and against what opposition (sorry, he wouldnt have that - the quality of the opposition doesnt matter), that computes a MOM Quotient (tm), which then pick the next team for him.

jm08 · 13-01-2016 2:33pm

aimee1 wrote: »

Eh kettle, Stander, pot, black, Heaslip, jm08 :cool:

Have I questioned your defence of Heaslip? Free speech and all of that. I'm not commenting on your double standards

The Rape of Lucretia · 13-01-2016 2:34pm

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

That match where Wales fielded a 3rd choice team?

Thats the one. The squad has had tougher workouts against the tackle bags in Belfield.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 13-01-2016 2:37pm

jm08 wrote: »

If you check out Wales's record you will see they frequently lose the first game of their campaign, particularly if away from home. They are slow starters.

And for the record, I don't know where you got the idea that Wales would field a similar team in the 6Ns.

You are incredible.

You want to use the fact Earls got MotM in that game as evidence that he can play at centre. I am saying it was against a third rate team so unless Wales plan on playing their 3rd string in the 6 Nations your argument is invalid.

jacothelad · 13-01-2016 2:38pm

Deleted User wrote: »

That "Man of the Match" Performance:

https://streamable.com/d76r

He was truly awful that day. It was travesty. I doubt if Sheahan would have even given it to him he was so bad.

jm08 · 13-01-2016 2:39pm

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Joe take notice of who gets man of the match from a former player or journo live at a game as to whether his man played well and should be there again ??????
I have heard it all now.

With Joe's attention to detail and analysis, he probably has a spreadsheet compiled by one of his analysts that keeps track of man of the match winners for each position, their frequency, and against what opposition (sorry, he wouldnt have that - the quality of the opposition doesnt matter), that computes a MOM Quotient (tm), which then pick the next team for him.

We know Schmidt rated Earls to be a better option than Cave, Fitz & Henshaw at outside centre. Getting a man of the match award v. Wales is just more evidence of the quality of the player.

The Rape of Lucretia · 13-01-2016 2:41pm

jm08 wrote: »

We know Schmidt rated Earls to be a better option than Cave, Fitz & Henshaw at outside centre. Getting a man of the match award v. Wales is just more evidence of the quality of the player.

How do we know that ?

13-01-2016 2:41pm

jacothelad wrote: »

He was truly awful that day. It was travesty. I doubt if Sheahan would have even given it to him he was so bad.

In fairness, that video is quite unfair, he did a lot well that day too.

But he did things well that you would associate with wing play, his distribution and decision making from 13 were very poor and as always at international level, he has zero composure.

Mahatma Geansai · 13-01-2016 2:43pm

Deleted User wrote: »

That "Man of the Match" Performance:

https://streamable.com/d76r

Christ that is pathetic. :rolleyes:

Good to see that the board has returned to its status quo of Earls being terrible. Whatever was infallible Joe thinking when he selected him.

aimee1 · 13-01-2016 2:43pm

jm08 wrote: »

Have I questioned your defence of Heaslip? Free speech and all of that. I'm not commenting on your double standards

double standards? I want earls on the left wing, his best position and IMO our best left wing option. Not like Im arguing for him to be dropped

MJohnston · 13-01-2016 2:43pm

It beggars belief that an Earls fan would want him to play in one of his weakest likely positions when he could easily be top choice for a spot in one of his strongest ones.

jm08 · 13-01-2016 2:44pm

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

You are incredible.

You want to use the fact Earls got MotM in that game as evidence that he can play at centre. I am saying it was against a third rate team so unless Wales plan on playing their 3rd string in the 6 Nations your argument is invalid.

Not just me thinks that Earls can play in the centre. Every coach he has ever had has played him there. They can't all be wrong.

Can you not get your head around the fact that Wales are slow starters - i.e., the more games they play together the better they get, its better to get them early in a tournament than late.

aimee1 · 13-01-2016 2:44pm

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Christ that is pathetic. :rolleyes:

Ah bit harsh on earls, first game of the season, few mistakes inevitable

Moflojo · 13-01-2016 2:48pm

This Earls debate is tiresome. There's no contemporary evidence to suggest he's in the running to play centre for Ireland, given that Munster are currently playing an outhalf at 12 with Earls on the wing.

Earls, if fit, will push for a wing berth with Ireland but there's no need to shoehorn him into centre again now that there are viable alternatives.

Henshaw, Payne and Fitzgerald are all ahead of Earls for roles in the centres, as are McCloskey, Marshall, and Ringrose (probably in that order).

Are we going to debate our 7th choice second row alternatives too?

Teferi · 13-01-2016 2:50pm

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Christ that is pathetic. :rolleyes:

Good to see that the board has returned to its status quo of Earls being terrible. Whatever was infallible Joe thinking when he selected him.

I'll just file this one under "Things that aren't true" shall I?

dub_skav · 13-01-2016 2:51pm

Moflojo wrote: »

This Earls debate is tiresome. There's no contemporary evidence to suggest he's in the running to play centre for Ireland, given that Munster are currently playing an outhalf at 12 with Earls on the wing.

Earls, if fit, will push for a wing berth with Ireland but there's no need to shoehorn him into centre again now that there are viable alternatives.

Henshaw, Payne and Fitzgerald are all ahead of Earls for roles in the centres, as are McCloskey, Marshall, and Ringrose (probably in that order).

Are we going to debate our 7th choice second row alternatives too?

Unfortunately he's probably still in school

The Rape of Lucretia · 13-01-2016 2:51pm

Moflojo wrote: »

This Earls debate is tiresome. There's no contemporary evidence to suggest he's in the running to play centre for Ireland, given that Munster are currently playing an outhalf at 12 with Earls on the wing.

Earls, if fit, will push for a wing berth with Ireland but there's no need to shoehorn him into centre again now that there are viable alternatives.

Henshaw, Payne and Fitzgerald are all ahead of Earls for roles in the centres, as are McCloskey, Marshall, and Ringrose (probably in that order).

Are we going to debate our 7th choice second row alternatives too?

We debated our 7th choice wing for 30 pages. And even that same candidate to start full back.
So Earls in the centre as 7th choice centre seems like a very valid topic to discuss. You never know. There could be 5 injuries. Who ya gona call ? Defence Busters.

sydthebeat · 13-01-2016 2:51pm

Deleted User wrote: »

That "Man of the Match" Performance:

https://streamable.com/d76r

thats quite deplorable that someone would go to the rounds of making that in order to criticize an individual player

jm08 · 13-01-2016 2:54pm

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

How do we know that ?

He selected Earls ahead of Cave, Fitzgerald & Henshaw to play at outside centre in the world cup.

I also think Earls started every game in the world cup.
Fitz played 165 minutes.
Cave 80 mina
Earls 351 mins

Henshaw was injured for some of the games.

awec · 13-01-2016 2:55pm

OMG this again?

jm08 · 13-01-2016 2:56pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

thats quite deplorable that someone would go to the rounds of making that in order to criticize an individual player

It reflects the commentary on here though and shouldn't surprise you.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 13-01-2016 2:58pm

jm08 wrote: »

Not just me thinks that Earls can play in the centre. Every coach he has ever had has played him there. They can't all be wrong.

Can you not get your head around the fact that Wales are slow starters - i.e., the more games they play together the better they get, its better to get them early in a tournament than late.

What has Wales being slow starters got to do with it? If anything it sounds like you're saying it's fine to play Earls at centre against them because they probably won't be that good anyway. Hardly a ringing endorsement.

13-01-2016 2:58pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

thats quite deplorable that someone would go to the rounds of making that in order to criticize an individual player

Didn't make it myself but is it?

For a player who knocked on, spilled ball, missed tackles and got held up multiple times throughout a game to get man of the match is a bit of a joke. If Joe does it in the analysis room is it any different? How about when Murray Kinsella does it on the 42, demonstrating through .gif after .gif how a team or individual was taken apart or outplayed?

I think it's fair game personally. It's worse to criticise with no evidence, or to make up reasons to criticise someone like we see so often with other players (Heaslip). The above linked video is decisive and constructive in making a point, even if it's a point some people don't want to acknowledge (not referring to you there).

Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

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