Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

sydthebeat

jm08 wrote: »

It reflects the commentary on here though and shouldn't surprise you.

it only reflects the commentary on here from posters who said he mixed the good with the bad on that day........

Podge_irl

jm08 wrote: »

He selected Earls ahead of Cave, Fitzgerald & Henshaw to play at outside centre in the world cup.

He absolutely, unequivocally did NOT select Earls ahead of Henshaw at 13. He selected Earls at 13 ahead of Madigan at 12.

And the main point here, is that we all just think he was wrong. So what he thought or did is irrelevant.

jm08

MJohnston wrote: »

It beggars belief that an Earls fan would want him to play in one of his weakest likely positions when he could easily be top choice for a spot in one of his strongest ones.

I have posted I don't care where Earls plays.

I won't let him be slated though for his performance as an outside centre without arguing his case.

sydthebeat

Deleted User wrote: »

Didn't make it myself but is it?

For a player who knocked on, spilled ball, missed tackles and got held up multiple times throughout a game to get man of the match is a bit of a joke. If Joe does it in the analysis room is it any different? How about when Murray Kinsella does it on the 42, demonstrating through .gif after .gif how a team or individual was taken apart or outplayed?

I think it's fair game personally. It's worse to criticise with no evidence, or to make up reasons to criticise someone like we see so often with other players (Heaslip). The above linked video is decisive and constructive in making a point, even if it's a point some people don't want to acknowledge (not referring to you there).

its unfair because if its questioning the MOTM award for the performance, the maker should be brave enough to show the good aspects against the bad, and let the viewer make up their minds if the MOTM was deserved.

all it is is a purely biased viewpoint

MJohnston

jm08 wrote: »

I have posted I don't care where Earls plays.

That's not really how your posts are coming across to be honest. Most of us would love to see Earls back at the wing, I don't know why you wouldn't share that hope.

jm08

Podge_irl wrote: »

He absolutely, unequivocally did NOT select Earls ahead of Henshaw at 13. He selected Earls at 13 ahead of Madigan at 12.

And the main point here, is that we all just think he was wrong. So what he thought or did is irrelevant.

He could have selected Henshaw at 13 - many people claim that that his best position (though they might have changed their minds about that now that Ringrose has appeared on the scene).

Are you telling me now that it is ok to argue the case that Joe Schmidt got it wrong, but the case that Joe Schmidt got it right cannot be even suggested?

Podge_irl

jm08 wrote: »

He could have selected Henshaw at 13 - many people claim that that his best position (though they might have changed their minds about that now that Ringrose has appeared on the scene).

Are you telling me now that it is ok to argue the case that Joe Schmidt got it wrong, but the case that Joe Schmidt got it right cannot be even suggested?

And if he selected Henshaw at 13 he would have had to pick someone at 12. Henshaw was the first choice centre - if Fofana was Irish and available Henshaw would have started at 13, it's just silly to suggest otherwise.


Of course you can put forward the case that he was right. But if I don't think Earls is the best option at centre (and I don't) then telling me "But Joe picked him" isn't a very convincing argument. Particularly when you have plenty of issues with Joe's selections normally.

jm08

MJohnston wrote: »

That's not really how your posts are coming across to be honest. Most of us would love to see Earls back at the wing, I don't know why you wouldn't share that hope.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harley Uptight Light
God only knows why I'm bothering but are you saying you want to see Earls at 13 in the 6N or what?

JM08: No, I'm not bothered where he plays.

I'm objecting to the slating of a player with little or no foundation for no other reason than big up the next big thing.

I can't be clearer than that.

MJohnston

jm08 wrote: »

No, I'm not bothered where he plays.

That in itself is the problem though - I think you should be bothered where he plays, because we all know that centre is not his strongest place, and you want the best for the man, you would actually be bothered by him playing out of position.

jm08

Podge_irl wrote: »

And if he selected Henshaw at 13 he would have had to pick someone at 12. Henshaw was the first choice centre - if Fofana was Irish and available Henshaw would have started at 13, it's just silly to suggest otherwise.


Of course you can put forward the case that he was right. But if I don't think Earls is the best option at centre (and I don't) then telling me "But Joe picked him" isn't a very convincing argument. Particularly when you have plenty of issues with Joe's selections normally.

The someone would have been either Fitzgerald or Cave. Both played 12 in the warm-ups I think.

Many are advocating that Henshaw should start outside Fitzgerald for the 6Ns.

I have plenty of issues with one or two of Joe's selections, but my main issue with Joe is the gameplan which dictates the players he uses and doesn't best utilise the talent that is available.

molloyjh

aimee1 wrote: »

Henshaw? I know he had the advantage of camp involvement the previous 12 months but he made the same jump. I think its a risk, just dont think its a massive one, and Henshaw went from 15/13 to 12.

No, McCloskey.

awec wrote: »

I swear I hate this talk of "systems". You would think players need a phd to play for Ireland sometimes.

So what if he hasn't played outside Sexton, or inside Henshaw or whoever? That's what training is for.

McCloskey has shone all season at 12, including European level. If we can't go Henshaw Payne (which I really, really hope we don't go with anyway) then he is definitely the best option at 12. The guy can do no more than what he has done to show that. He has been the best centre in Ireland all season.

So you're saying the fact that he'll get a week or so training with Ireland should prepare him for the step up from Europe to International AND should help him develop a good familiarity with Sexton and whoever else is playing at 13 AND should enable him to learn whatever attacking and defensive tactics and systems that Ireland want to use? What exactly do you think it is that they do in training?

Systems and partnerships are incredibly important in the international game. We've seen that quite clearly at centre the last few years. We went from a 10-12-13 who were incredibly familiar with each other (where we played some very good attacking rugby) to a 10-12-13 who were not at all familiar with each other (where we saw a far more limited game, partly as a result of the lack of familiarity). You don't just bed all this stuff down in a week. That doesn't happen in real life.

Also, nobody is arguing with the guys ability at all. Not a single person. He absolutely should be brought into the set-up and he absolutely should be starting at least 1 game come June. I'd be shocked if anyone felt he shouldn't be involved.

sydthebeat

jm08 wrote: »

but my main issue with Joe is the gameplan which dictates the players he uses and doesn't best utilise the talent that is available.

so what way would YOU have them playing?

remember, your game plan must be good enough to have given us 2 grand slams over the last 2 seasons... no pressure there

connemara man

jm08

MJohnston wrote: »

That in itself is the problem though - I think you should be bothered where he plays, because we all know that centre is not his strongest place, and you want the best for the man, you would actually be bothered by him playing out of position.

All in your opinion, not mine. I'm equally happy seeing him in the centre or on the wing and as far as I'm aware, so is he.

sydthebeat

molloyjh wrote: »

So you're saying the fact that he'll get a week or so training with Ireland should prepare him for the step up from Europe to International AND should help him develop a good familiarity with Sexton and whoever else is playing at 13 AND should enable him to learn whatever attacking and defensive tactics and systems that Ireland want to use? What exactly do you think it is that they do in training?

Systems and partnerships are incredibly important in the international game. We've seen that quite clearly at centre the last few years. We went from a 10-12-13 who were incredibly familiar with each other (where we played some very good attacking rugby) to a 10-12-13 who were not at all familiar with each other (where we saw a far more limited game, partly as a result of the lack of familiarity). You don't just bed all this stuff down in a week. That doesn't happen in real life.

Also, nobody is arguing with the guys ability at all. Not a single person. He absolutely should be brought into the set-up and he absolutely should be starting at least 1 game come June. I'd be shocked if anyone felt he shouldn't be involved.

surely he would have been given full information about systems, calls, moves etc at the team get together before christmas and have the time from then until the training camps to study up on them.....
in that way you dont have to waste time in limited training session to be describing moves / calls etc from scratch

well, thats the way id imagine the team being run

jm08

sydthebeat wrote: »

so what way would YOU have them playing?

remember, your game plan must be good enough to have given us 2 grand slams over the last 2 seasons... no pressure there

More positive rugby.

Pressure is off then, as we didn't win two grand slams - in fact a Joe Schmidt coached team have never won a Grand Slam.

MJohnston

jm08 wrote: »

All in your opinion, not mine. I'm equally happy seeing him in the centre or on the wing and as far as I'm aware, so is he.

And, like I said, I don't know why you wouldn't share the hope that he'd be back playing in his strongest position.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

jm08 wrote: »

More positive rugby.

Pressure is off then, as we didn't win two grand slams - in fact a Joe Schmidt coached team have never won a Grand Slam.

Great game plan there. My game plan would be "win all the games".

molloyjh

sydthebeat wrote: »

surely he would have been given full information about systems, calls, moves etc at the team get together before christmas and have the time from then until the training camps to study up on them.....
in that way you dont have to waste time in limited training session to be describing moves / calls etc from scratch

well, thats the way id imagine the team being run

Maybe, but knowing the stuff in your head and being familiar enough with it all in practice are two different things. I have nothing against McCloskey, I just think it's utterly ridiculous to think that he can just slot straight into international level like that.

Now it is also possible that he absolutely rips it up in training and shows that he can do that, and fantastic if he does, but there are people here getting all their outrage ducks in a row just waiting to let rip themselves. We need to temper things with a dose of reality here. He's unlikely to start because he is unlikely to be comfortable enough with the whole thing quite that quickly. Maybe a little later in the tournament against Italy he might be in a better position to give it a go.

Mr Tickle

sydthebeat wrote: »

surely he would have been given full information about systems, calls, moves etc at the team get together before christmas and have the time from then until the training camps to study up on them.....
in that way you dont have to waste time in limited training session to be describing moves / calls etc from scratch

well, thats the way id imagine the team being run

He'll also have had the benefit of working with Kiss and Payne. Can't say that they HAVE done this but if i was looking to break into the irish team and i worked with a very recent coach and potential centre partner I'd be getting all the help i could.

Also didn't henshaw spend a year or so in and around the squad before he made his break?

molloyjh

sydthebeat wrote: »

so what way would YOU have them playing?

remember, your game plan must be good enough to have given us 2 grand slams over the last 2 seasons... no pressure there

Do you expect to get an actual answer to this?

wp_rathead

have I clicked on "Ireland Team Talk/Gossip Rumour Thread IV" by mistake?

Podge_irl

jm08 wrote: »

in fact a Joe Schmidt coached team have never won a Grand Slam.

...so?

molloyjh

Podge_irl wrote: »

...so?

So he's obviously crap. Like, hello!? Sure it's not like a 6 Nations title means anything. If you're not going to win a Grand Slam then you may as well not win anything at all. Sure isn't that what Deccie did.....

sydthebeat

molloyjh wrote: »

Maybe, but knowing the stuff in your head and being familiar enough with it all in practice are two different things. I have nothing against McCloskey, I just think it's utterly ridiculous to think that he can just slot straight into international level like that.
.

see i dont agree with this, if hes good enough, hes good enough.

Pollard made his international test debut a week after returning from the JWCs.
so in that week he had to get up to speed on all the calls and systems at such a pivotal position.

Milner Scudder was offered his debut in the ruby championship decider against australia... deemed good enough in such an important game ahead of more seasoned 'lesser' players.

bilston

To be fair I would have agreed with Molloy up until a few weeks ago but such is the form of McCloskey I think it would be very brave to leave him out. One thing, and this isn't me having a go at Leinster fans, it's me having a go at the media, if McCloskey was playing for Leinster the media pressure on Joe to pick him would be fecking enormous.

Just on the systems point, I think there is a fair chance that Molloy will be proved right in the end and McCloskey will have to bide his time, it's why I wouldn't be massively shocked if Luke Marshall sneaked under the radar into the team at 13 if Payne isn't fit (although he is likely to play for Ulster on Saturday). Marshall would have a bit of knowledge about the systems etc, although it's been a while since he played for Ireland.

mfceiling

jm08 wrote: »

Not just me thinks that Earls can play in the centre. Every coach he has ever had has played him there. They can't all be wrong.

Can you not get your head around the fact that Wales are slow starters - i.e., the more games they play together the better they get, its better to get them early in a tournament than late.

Is it not 2 separate things?

1. Wales are slow starters.

2. That wasn't anywhere close to the full strength Welsh team ergo beating them or playing well against them is no barometer as to how you would go against their "proper" first 15.

awec

bilston wrote: »

To be fair I would have agreed with Molloy up until a few weeks ago but such is the form of McCloskey I think it would be very brave to leave him out. One thing, and this isn't me having a go at Leinster fans, it's me having a go at the media, if McCloskey was playing for Leinster the media pressure on Joe to pick him would be fecking enormous.

Just on the systems point, I think there is a fair chance that Molloy will be proved right in the end and McCloskey will have to bide his time, it's why I wouldn't be massively shocked if Luke Marshall sneaked under the radar into the team at 13 if Payne isn't fit (although he is likely to play for Ulster on Saturday). Marshall would have a bit of knowledge about the systems etc, although it's been a while since he played for Ireland.

Probably would have got a few Twitter endorsements from BOD and all.

awec

awec wrote: »

Probably would have got a few Twitter endorsements from BOD and all.

Nothing stopping Ferris or Wallace endorsing him on twitter is there?

former total

Ah, the Dublin meeja. When reasonable argument is just too much hassle, accept no substitute.

Bridge93

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Nothing stopping Ferris or Wallace endorsing him on twitter is there?

Ferris talks enough ****e when he's on a live game on BBC. We don't need him spouting more biased rubbish

awec

Deleted User wrote: »

Nothing stopping Ferris or Wallace endorsing him on twitter is there?

If they endorsed him to start for Ireland every time he out paced a static forward people would soon get sick of it!

Zzippy

Bridge93 wrote: »

Ferris talks enough ****e when he's on a live game on BBC. We don't need him spouting more biased rubbish

As opposed to the totally independent and unbiased punditry from, say, Shane Horgan or BOD?

Bridge93

Zzippy wrote: »

As opposed to the totally independent and unbiased punditry from, say, Shane Horgan or BOD?

Did I say they were?

jm08

Podge_irl wrote: »

...so?

He doesn't have to live up to that.

mfceiling

I remember the good old days in here when it was all about Zebo and Dave Kearney...

*sighs wistfully*

Journeyman_1

mfceiling wrote: »

I remember the good old days in here when it was all about Zebo and Dave Kearney...

*sighs wistfully*

Thankfully the players put that debate to bed last weekend on the pitch!

sydthebeat

mfceiling wrote: »

I remember the good old days in here when it was all about Zebo and Dave Kearney...

*sighs wistfully*

who?

awec

awec wrote: »

If they endorsed him to start for Ireland every time he out paced a static forward people would soon get sick of it!

Every time? You mean once..

Ringrose has produced some good moments and a former international 13 who knows what it takes at that level has backed him to make the transition?

I'd have no problem with Wallace, an international and grand slam winning 12 backing McCloskey. I certainly wouldn't get as irate about it as you have gotten at BOD.

awec

Deleted User wrote: »

Every time? You mean once..

Ringrose has produced some good moments and a former international 13 who knows what it takes at that level has backed him to make the transition?

I'd have no problem with Wallace, an international and grand slam winning 12 backing McCloskey. I certainly wouldn't get as irate about it as you have gotten at BOD.

Not irate about anything Venjur, we are all well used to it by this stage.

It's not really a criticism, but the southern media panders to the southern supporters and focuses on Leinster and Munster players. If any of the Leinster or Munster centres were putting in performances anywhere near as good as McCloskey the amount of media fawning would be overwhelming.

We have already seen Brent Pope compare Ringrose to Conrad Smith and BOD call him the best young talent based on this one time he outpaced a lock.

In the indo article that talked about Ringrose and McCloskey being called up all the focus was on Garry, based on this single try he set up against Munster.

I quote:

It is the inclusion of Ringrose which is set to cause the biggest stir after legendary former outside centre Brian O'Driscoll called on Schmidt to start the Leinster centre against Wales in the first game of his side's Championship defence against Wales.

The 20-year-old has impressed on his limited outings for the province this season, starring in their win over Munster in Thomond Park last week.

The hype is so great that you'd almost think it's Ringrose who is starting in Europe for his province and in his third professional season, and McCloskey the one with the handful of Pro12 caps in his debut season of senior rugby.

awec

awec wrote: »

Not irate about anything Venjur, we are all well used to it by this stage.

It's not really a criticism, but the southern media panders to the southern supporters and focuses on Leinster and Munster players. If any of the Leinster or Munster centres were putting in performances anywhere near as good as McCloskey the amount of media fawning would be overwhelming.

We have already seen Brent Pope compare Ringrose to Conrad Smith and BOD call him the best young talent based on this one time he outpaced a lock.

In the indo article that talked about Ringrose and McCloskey being called up all the focus was on Garry, based on this single try he set up against Munster.

I quote:



The hype is so great that you'd almost think it's Ringrose who is starting in Europe for his province and in his third professional season, and McCloskey the one with the handful of Pro12 caps in his debut season of senior rugby.

Do you not accept that this is because a young talent has emerged at "13" as opposed to anything else? BOD is the most world recognised and Iconic player we have ever produced and an heir apparent coming out of the woodwork in his position is going to sell papers / clicks.

In fairness, Henderson is a good example of a player who has gotten heaps of hype with all the "southern media" calling for his inclusion ahead of Toner. But sure let's just ignore that so we can all maintain our confirmation bias.

EDIT:

On a side note, wasn't BOD calling for Payne to start all last season? Where does he play again?

molloyjh

sydthebeat wrote: »

see i dont agree with this, if hes good enough, hes good enough.

Pollard made his international test debut a week after returning from the JWCs.
so in that week he had to get up to speed on all the calls and systems at such a pivotal position.

Milner Scudder was offered his debut in the ruby championship decider against australia... deemed good enough in such an important game ahead of more seasoned 'lesser' players.

But do you know how much time those guys had spent in camp up to that point? Milner Scudder for example was in camp for the whole of the Championship up to that point? having been named in the squad 6 weeks before his debut. And as I said before if McCloskey can prove himself in training I wouldn't be surprised to see him against Italy. So is there really a difference there?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/69573883/five-new-caps-in-all-blacks-41man-squad-for-rugby-championship

former total

awec wrote: »

Not irate about anything Venjur, we are all well used to it by this stage.

It's not really a criticism, but the southern media panders to the southern supporters and focuses on Leinster and Munster players. If any of the Leinster or Munster centres were putting in performances anywhere near as good as McCloskey the amount of media fawning would be overwhelming.

We have already seen Brent Pope compare Ringrose to Conrad Smith and BOD call him the best young talent based on this one time he outpaced a lock.

In the indo article that talked about Ringrose and McCloskey being called up all the focus was on Garry, based on this single try he set up against Munster.


The hype is so great that you'd almost think it's Ringrose who is starting in Europe for his province and in his third professional season, and McCloskey the one with the handful of Pro12 caps in his debut season of senior rugby.

Not really.

When the captaincy was being discussed last week, the "southern media" were only too happy to pile into Jamie Heaslip and back Rory Best. During the World Cup, the absolute media consensus was that Henderson had to start ahead of Toner. When Payne came in for criticism during the RWC, the wagons were circled around him in a big way.

It's a selective argument.

PTH2009

id take a triple crown more than a grand slam this year but beat france are ur 80% there (we expect to beat italy at home).

We need to beat England away, joe has ever done it and the team has not done it since 2010

we should of won a triple crown in 2010 (scotland beat us in the last croke park game)

awec

former total wrote: »

Not really.

When the captaincy was being discussed last week, the "southern media" were only too happy to pile into Jamie Heaslip and back Rory Best. During the World Cup, the absolute media consensus was that Henderson had to start ahead of Toner. When Payne came in for criticism during the RWC, the wagons were circled around him in a big way.

It's a selective argument.

Hardly the same though is it?

Henderson only got this push in the media after he put in numerous performances in green that there was no option but for the media to start to believe the hype. The captaincy debate is hardly the same either given that Heaslip has never been a darling of the media down here, nor has he ever had universal support from the fans.

I have no issue with the southern papers talking about Ringrose a lot (even if some of the things being said are ridiculous), after all he is a subject that appeals to most of their readership and they don't sell papers up in Belfast. I wouldn't expect the Belfast Telegraph to be doing much touting of Ringrose.

But let's not pretend that the bias in coverage doesn't exist.

Some of BODs comments though did annoy me, because they were total nonsense.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

I was fairly annoyed when one of the major Irish papers produced 3 separate covers for their WC supplement, one for each province....

awec

In more interesting news, Payne and Cave are both in contention to start for Ulster this week.

Ludik is injured, which should mean Payne gets some very important time at 15 these next few weeks. I say should, because I wouldn't put it past our coaches to do something daft like play him at 13 and Gilroy at 15.

errlloyd

If you guys think the papers are bad now imagine the amount of xenophobic sh!te that is gonna be spilled into the pages of Irish newspapers if Payne and Stander start blocking the pathway of Ringrose, and VDF.

case885

errlloyd wrote:

If you guys think the papers are bad now imagine the amount of xenophobic sh!te that is gonna be spilled into the pages of Irish newspapers if Payne and Stander start blocking the pathway of Ringrose, and VDF.

We already see that being posted here, especially about stander.

mfceiling

awec wrote: »

In more interesting news, Payne and Cave are both in contention to start for Ulster this week.

Ludik is injured, which should mean Payne gets some very important time at 15 these next few weeks. I say should, because I wouldn't put it past our coaches to do something daft like play him at 13 and Gilroy at 15.

That's exactly what will happen. Stu at 12 and JP at 13 with Gilroy at 15.

As regards to the southern bias it has to be that way. Not much point talking otherwise as listners/readers won't be interested.
Newstalk did píss me off on Monday night rugby though..."we'll talk about Munster's disappointment at the weekend and also on Ulster's win"
30 minutes of Munster's woes and then "we'll leave it there and we didn't get time to mention ulster...We will in the future"...In other words "we won't bother our arse"

Huge hype about Ringrose but I doubt he'd be ahead of Payne, Marshall or even Earls at 13 at the moment. I'd prefer to see Cave there myself but it'll never happen....and I can't be arsed arguing with any of ye about it anyway!!!!