Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

awec

mfceiling wrote: »

That's exactly what will happen. Stu at 12 and JP at 13 with Gilroy at 15.

As regards to the southern bias it has to be that way. Not much point talking otherwise as listners/readers won't be interested.
Newstalk did píss me off on Monday night rugby though..."we'll talk about Munster's disappointment at the weekend and also on Ulster's win"
30 minutes of Munster's woes and then "we'll leave it there and we didn't get time to mention ulster...We will in the future"...In other words "we won't bother our arse"

Huge hype about Ringrose but I doubt he'd be ahead of Payne, Marshall or even Earls at 13 at the moment. I'd prefer to see Cave there myself but it'll never happen....and I can't be arsed arguing with any of ye about it anyway!!!!

If this happens Kiss should honestly be sacked.

irishbucsfan

Payne should be playing 13 as much as possible between now and the 6 Nations so that we can integrate McCloskey (if Henshaw is out)

Tox56

awec wrote: »

We have already seen Brent Pope compare Ringrose to Conrad Smith and BOD call him the best young talent based on this one time he outpaced a lock.

The idea that the only thing Ringrose has done well is outpace a lock is as ridiculous as anything BOD has said in fairness. He is a special talent and the media attention reflects that.

awec

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Payne should be playing 13 as much as possible between now and the 6 Nations so that we can integrate McCloskey (if Henshaw is out)

It's not possible thankfully.

Journeyman_1

It would be crazy for Ulster to have Payne at 13 and 2 of Cave, Marshall and McCloskey not starting, while Gilroy plays FB!

irishbucsfan

Journeyman_1 wrote: »

It would be crazy for Ulster to have Payne at 13 and 2 of Cave, Marshall and McCloskey not starting, while Gilroy plays FB!

Not crazy at all. Ireland comes first for all the provinces and he's going to be starting at 13 in February if he's fit.

awec

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Not crazy at all. Ireland comes first for all the provinces and he's going to be starting at 13 in February if he's fit.

Not for European games, and not for the only province with a sniff of a QF.

It would be absolutely mental with no justification.

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

Not for European games, and not for the only province with a sniff of a QF.

It would be absolutely mental with no justification.

Well if he's not fit enough for Europe then he won't be playing, so I don't see the relevance of that. I agree it'd be surprising if he's rushed straight back into starting in a European game.

awec

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Well if he's not fit enough for Europe then he won't be playing, so I don't see the relevance of that. I agree it'd be surprising if he's rushed straight back into starting in a European game.

It's likely he'll be involved cause Ludik is injured.

What I meant was the IRFU can't stick their oar into selections for European games.

awec

Tox56 wrote: »

The idea that the only thing Ringrose has done well is outpace a lock is as ridiculous as anything BOD has said in fairness. He is a special talent and the media attention reflects that.

Ah I know he has Tox and I am not slating him as a player, but it was that incident that really set the train in motion.

CMOTDibbler

awec wrote: »

It's likely he'll be involved cause Ludik is injured.

What I meant was the IRFU can't stick their oar into selections for European games.

Isn't that what Les Kiss was sent up there for? To make sure ye toe the line. :pac:

molloyjh

I do hope Ulster start to look to Payne more as a FB now as well. Ireland are starting to develop centres again and our need there isn't what it was. But we are seriously limited at FB. That's where Payne is needed most by Ulster and Ireland going forward. We may see a transition period but hopefully that'll be all we'll see.

jacothelad

molloyjh wrote: »

I do hope Ulster start to look to Payne more as a FB now as well. Ireland are starting to develop centres again and our need there isn't what it was. But we are seriously limited at FB. That's where Payne is needed most by Ulster and Ireland going forward. We may see a transition period but hopefully that'll be all we'll see.

Yep! If Rob K. got even a minor injury that kept him out for a week or two during the 6 Ns, who would fill in? Felix has gone. Are we talking Zebo? I'd rather have Payne at 15.

former total

IIRC Payne first moved to 13 during Kiss' first stint at Ulster.

I think moving him back now is unlikely and I'm not sure it benefits Ireland.

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

I do hope Ulster start to look to Payne more as a FB now as well. Ireland are starting to develop centres again and our need there isn't what it was. But we are seriously limited at FB. That's where Payne is needed most by Ulster and Ireland going forward. We may see a transition period but hopefully that'll be all we'll see.

Eh no, people above are talking about Fitzgerald and Earls as being our centers if Payne/Henshaw are out. That's not depth.

Olding, McCloskey and Ringrose are great prospects. When they are converted from prospects to established internationals then we can forget Payne, but until then he is a absolutely the best option we have by quite a distance.

People forget that this international season is extremely important, much more important than next season will be. We need to win as many games as possible this year (which is why an extra test against the All Blacks is insanity).

errlloyd

jacothelad wrote: »

Yep! If Rob K. got even a minor injury that kept him out for a week or two during the 6 Ns, who would fill in? Felix has gone. Are we talking Zebo? I'd rather have Payne at 15.

Ireland 2014 - "We have literally no centres, let's convert some fullbacks"
Ireland 2016 - "We've made a terrible mistake"

irishbucsfan

former total wrote: »

IIRC Payne first moved to 13 during Kiss' first stint at Ulster.

I think moving him back now is unlikely and I'm not sure it benefits Ireland.

Not sure it benefits Ulster either considering they have an NIQ full back arriving next season.

I think Payne played more games at 14 than at 15 when in New Zealand (in his Crusaders days), maybe they can play him there!

aimee1

errlloyd wrote: »

Ireland 2014 - "We have literally no centres, let's convert some fullbacks"
Ireland 2016 - "We've made a terrible mistake"

Ireland 2018 - we have no fullbacks.........

molloyjh

errlloyd wrote: »

Ireland 2014 - "We have literally no centres, let's convert some fullbacks"
Ireland 2016 - "We've made a terrible mistake"

In fairness it worked when we needed it to. If we don't convert Payne back to FB over the next little while though we'll be jam packed with centres and short on FBs. Unless there's a FB or two floating about that we don't know about. Haven't seen much of Connacht this season but how is TOH looking?

awec

former total wrote: »

IIRC Payne first moved to 13 during Kiss' first stint at Ulster.

I think moving him back now is unlikely and I'm not sure it benefits Ireland.

Payne first moved to 13 under Anscombe. He was put at 13 for the semi final of the pro12 against Leinster in Anscombe's last season and it ended up costing us the match.

He was only ever moved to 13 for Ireland purposes. At least that is all that made sense, because he has never, ever been as good at 13 for Ulster as he was at 15 and Ulster are without question better with him at 15.

Bazzo

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Not sure it benefits Ulster either considering they have an NIQ full back arriving next season.

I think Payne played more games at 14 than at 15 when in New Zealand (in his Crusaders days), maybe they can play him there!

He's a fair sized fella, give him a run at 6 maybe?

awec

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Not sure it benefits Ulster either considering they have an NIQ full back arriving next season.

I think Payne played more games at 14 than at 15 when in New Zealand (in his Crusaders days), maybe they can play him there!

It benefits Ulster because we are far better with him at 15.

We also need him there way more than at 13.

Tox56

molloyjh wrote: »

In fairness it worked when we needed it to. If we don't convert Payne back to FB over the next little while though we'll be jam packed with centres and short on FBs. Unless there's a FB or two floating about that we don't know about. Haven't seen much of Connacht this season but how is TOH looking?

molloyjh

Piutau can play on the wing too. With Bowe and Trimble at the tail end of their careers and not the most dependable in the injury department that might be the best use of resources there?

awec

Well the Ulster in the know bloke is stating on UAFC that Payne is indeed starting at 15 for Ulster.

If true this may be the start of the road to redemption. Finally the misery might be ending.

former total

I dunno lads. Joe has a lot of faith in Payne at 13. I wouldn't share said faith but I'd be surprised if Joe abandons it so quickly and without a credible alternative.

thomond2006

It's not the best use of resources to use Payne at centre. I'd prefer to see him at 15.

mfceiling

jacothelad wrote: »

Yep! If Rob K. got even a minor injury that kept him out for a week or two during the 6 Ns, who would fill in? Felix has gone. Are we talking Zebo? I'd rather have Payne at 15.

The way things are going we'd probably end up with Earls there...

bilston

former total wrote: »

I dunno lads. Joe has a lot of faith in Payne at 13. I wouldn't share said faith but I'd be surprised if Joe abandons it so quickly and without a credible alternative.

The thing is we have two maybe three altermatives at 13. Robbie Henshaw, Luke Marshall and Luke Fitzgerald. What alternatives do we have at FB? Yes all three of those players are untested at 13 at test level (more or less) but they are at least options. With the exception of TOH is there any alternative at all to Kearney?

There is talk that Ludik will be allowed to stay at Ulster next season as a second project player, this potentially shows the concerns at the lack of options at 15 for Ireland.

kuang1

For me, if all are fit, then I'd like all of Payne, Henshaw, Fitz, McCloskey, Earls & Trimble to be in the matchday 23 against Wales.
R Kearney would need to tear it up in Carton House in order to stay in the 23, let alone hold on to the 15 jersey imo.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

If Henshaw was fit I'd say move Payne to 15 and go with McCloskey/Henshaw or whoever your personal choice is.
If Henshaw is out for a bit of the 6 Nations I'm not sure having a completely new central pairing is the best idea. Having at least one of the players who have been first choice under Schmidt I think is important.

Pink Fairy

former total wrote: »

I dunno lads. Joe has a lot of faith in Payne at 13. I wouldn't share said faith but I'd be surprised if Joe abandons it so quickly and without a credible alternative.

Did someone say "Keith Earls"

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Pink Fairy wrote: »

Did someone say "Keith Earls"

He did get MotM against Wales in the first warm up match last summer.

Sinbad_NI

mfceiling wrote:

The way things are going we'd probably end up with Earls there...

Or worse... playing 13 again!!!!

irishbucsfan

bilston wrote: »

The thing is we have two maybe three altermatives at 13. Robbie Henshaw, Luke Marshall and Luke Fitzgerald. What alternatives do we have at FB? Yes all three of those players are untested at 13 at test level (more or less) but they are at least options. With the exception of TOH is there any alternative at all to Kearney?

There is talk that Ludik will be allowed to stay at Ulster next season as a second project player, this potentially shows the concerns at the lack of options at 15 for Ireland.

The alternative to Kearney is Zebo, who is a lot more tested at test level than those guys.

People are absolutely mad if they think Schmidt is going to suddenly change his approach to the squad in a year where he has had no meaningful time to coach them, facing into an opening game against Wales, in a season where every game is a must-win. Absolutely mad.

The Rape of Lucretia

Payne at 13 off the agenda and getting some 15 time is essential to the plan now :

Payne on the bench. Like starts at 12, Robbie outside him. Payne covers centre and full back, and wing by Fitzie moving out and Hench back to 12.

It all fits.

Pink Fairy

On a different note, if Marty Moore leaves Leinster and goes to wasps, should Nucifora be dropped kicked back to whatever backwater he crawled out of?
For someone who was brought in to the Irish setup to improve things and redistribute players etc...he has failed on epic levels that haven't been seen here since the Titanic was deemed unsinkable

The Rape of Lucretia

awec wrote: »

If they endorsed him to start for Ireland every time he out paced a static forward people would soon get sick of it!

The magic isnt in outpacing a static forward. Anyone can do that.

The real genius is putting yourself in the position to outpace a static forward. Not too many can do it.

b.gud

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

The magic isnt in outpacing a static forward. Anyone can do that.

The real genius is putting yourself in the position to outpace a static forward. Not too many can do it.

The magic is getting Sean O’Brien to do all the hard work in creating the opportunity and then taking the credit

bilston

Pink Fairy wrote: »

On a different note, if Marty Moore leaves Leinster and goes to wasps, should Nucifora be dropped kicked back to whatever backwater he crawled out of?
For someone who was brought in to the Irish setup to improve things and redistribute players etc...he has failed on epic levels that haven't been seen here since the Titanic was deemed unsinkable

Not much Nucifora can do if a player wants to leave a province.

The Rape of Lucretia

PTH2009 wrote: »

id take a triple crown more than a grand slam this year but beat france are ur 80% there (we expect to beat italy at home)

Its always been a flaw in the 6N that winning the grand slam takes you out of the running for the Triple Crown. It really something they organisers should look at correcting.

molloyjh

Pink Fairy wrote: »

On a different note, if Marty Moore leaves Leinster and goes to wasps, should Nucifora be dropped kicked back to whatever backwater he crawled out of?
For someone who was brought in to the Irish setup to improve things and redistribute players etc...he has failed on epic levels that haven't been seen here since the Titanic was deemed unsinkable

It's very early days in that regard. There's an entire culture shift required to get people moving freely between provinces. And if a guy can get more money abroad and chooses to do so it is utterly illegal to stop it. So this whole game of point the finger at Nucifora that seems to be so popular these days is unfounded.

molloyjh

former total wrote: »

I dunno lads. Joe has a lot of faith in Payne at 13. I wouldn't share said faith but I'd be surprised if Joe abandons it so quickly and without a credible alternative.

I can't imagine he'll be dropping the idea immediately. I'd imagine there would be a transition period if it were going to happen to allow the alternatives to bed in and give Payne time to acclimate to FB at international level.

Zzippy

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Payne should be playing 13 as much as possible between now and the 6 Nations so that we can integrate McCloskey (if Henshaw is out)

Henshaw will be fine. He's out of plaster and running ball drills with just a light strapping on the hand. Pretty sure he'll play against Enisei next week or Scarlets the week after. If he doesn't it won't be because of the hand. It's not 100% healed but will be very soon.

.ak

awec wrote: »

Payne first moved to 13 under Anscombe. He was put at 13 for the semi final of the pro12 against Leinster in Anscombe's last season and it ended up costing us the match.

He was only ever moved to 13 for Ireland purposes. At least that is all that made sense, because he has never, ever been as good at 13 for Ulster as he was at 15 and Ulster are without question better with him at 15.

Payne was signed as a replacement for BOD. He came to Ireland with the intention of playing 13.

awec

.ak wrote: »

Payne was signed as a replacement for BOD. He came to Ireland with the intention of playing 13.

That may be true, but then it was found out that he's actually way better at 15 than at 13.

This 13 thing needs to end right now. Honestly, if Payne doesn't play 15 for Ulster we just need to get rid of him. Leinster are welcome to him if that's the case, or we can send him to Connacht to replace Henshaw if he moves to Leinster. We have at least two, probably three 13s who are better than he is.

Has there ever been any other case of a player being persisted with in a position while it is blatantly obvious to all and sundry that he's much better in another position?

Imagine Leinster being told they have to play Sexton at 12. Ridiculous. I can't think of another player who has actually managed to annoy fans of his own province so much.

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

That may be true, but then it was found out that he's actually way better at 15 than at 13.

This 13 thing needs to end right now. Honestly, if Payne doesn't play 15 for Ulster we just need to get rid of him. Leinster are welcome to him if that's the case, or we can send him to Connacht to replace Henshaw if he moves to Leinster. We have at least two, probably three 13s who are better than he is.

Has there ever been any other case of a player being persisted with in a position while it is blatantly obvious to all and sundry that he's much better in another position?

Imagine Leinster being told they have to play Sexton at 12. Ridiculous.

Just because you hold the opinion that a player isn't very good in a position does not make it a fact.

If it was a fact, then his coaches at Crusaders, Blues, Ulster and Ireland must all be wrong or it must all be an international conspiracy to subvert the midfield of a mid-table Pro 12 rugby team.

awec

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Just because you hold the opinion that a player isn't very good in a position does not make it a fact.

If it was a fact, then his coaches at Crusaders, Blues, Ulster and Ireland must all be wrong or it must all be an international conspiracy to subvert the midfield of a mid-table Pro 12 rugby team.

Nobody who has watched Payne for Ulster at 13 and Payne for Ulster at 15 can sit there and genuinely say he is a better 13.

That is just not possible unless people are watching the games with their eyes closed.

The idea he is a better centre is just false. End of story.

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

Nobody who has watched Payne for Ulster at 13 and Payne for Ulster at 15 can sit there and genuinely say he is a better 13.

That is just not possible unless people are watching the games with their eyes closed.

The idea he is a better centre is just false. End of story.

End of story I guess.

All those coaches; Blackadder, Lam, Anscombe, Kiss and Schmidt, must have been picking him at 13 by accident then, if they weren't being genuine!

Utah_Saint

I believe he only played 13 in super rugby for a very short time. Possibly injury cover. Unless he comes back as Conrad smith and bod combined then he should play 15 for ulster