Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

Teferi

I would love to see Payne at 15 for Ireland.

Tox56 wrote: »

:D:D:D

Utah_Saint

Teferi wrote: »

I would love to see Payne at 15 for Ireland.



:D:D:D

And Zebo to 13?

irishbucsfan

Utah_Saint wrote: »

I believe he only played 13 in super rugby for a very short time. Possibly injury cover. Unless he comes back as Conrad smith and bod combined then he should play 15 for ulster

He was starting at 13 for the Blues all season when Ulster signed him, apart from a very short patch.

He did cover 15 for the Crusaders when Colin Slade was unavailable, so the opposite is true, but was signed for the Blues to play 13. Played a couple of games at 15 for the Blues when Toeava was out injured as well.

.ak

I don't get the hate that Payne gets at 13. At club level backs are often made look better at 15 because of the spaces afforded to him. Payne is a must for Ireland at 13, he's the glue that holds our back line together. He's nigh on perfect in terms of decision making and understanding situations and plays.

awec

Utah_Saint wrote: »

I believe he only played 13 in super rugby for a very short time. Possibly injury cover. Unless he comes back as Conrad smith and bod combined then he should play 15 for ulster

If he wants to play 13 we should genuinely just get rid. He is of no use to us there.

He shouldn't, if things are right, be getting any games for Ulster at 13 for the rest of the season. How can he play 13 for Ireland if he can't (and shouldn't) get games there for Ulster?

awec

irishbucsfan wrote: »

End of story I guess.

All those coaches; Blackadder, Lam, Anscombe, Kiss and Schmidt, must have been picking him at 13 by accident then, if they weren't being genuine!

Do you think he has played better for Ulster at 13 than he has at 15?

bilston

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Just because you hold the opinion that a player isn't very good in a position does not make it a fact.

If it was a fact, then his coaches at Crusaders, Blues, Ulster and Ireland must all be wrong or it must all be an international conspiracy to subvert the midfield of a mid-table Pro 12 rugby team.

Payne is a perfectly good centre, but he is a top class FB. I remember watching him play 15 against Northampton at Franklins Gardens about three years ago and man he was utterly sublime that day. That's just one example but there have been plenty of others.

What interests me (and maybe this is more for the Ulster thread, albeit with relevance for Ireland) is who plays 13 when Cave, Payne and Marshall are all fit. For me Luke Marshall is Ulster's best 13 right now.

Utah_Saint

.ak wrote: »

I don't get the hate that Payne gets at 13. At club level backs are often made look better at 15 because of the spaces afforded to him. Payne is a must for Ireland at 13, he's the glue that holds our back line together. He's nigh on perfect in terms of decision making and understanding situations and plays.

There is no hate at all...I'm just a fan who wants all the best players on the pitch, and for Ulster that means shifting Payne to 15 so we can accomidate our 300 other centres

awec

.ak wrote: »

I don't get the hate that Payne gets at 13. At club level backs are often made look better at 15 because of the spaces afforded to him. Payne is a must for Ireland at 13, he's the glue that holds our back line together. He's nigh on perfect in terms of decision making and understanding situations and plays.

He gets the hate because Ulster are noticably worse when he plays in the centre.

Cave is a better 13 than he is. Marshall is a better 13 than he is. Marshall has done better these past few weeks at 13 than Payne has in all his games there for Ulster.

Olding will probably be a better 13 than he is too.

If you think I am bad when it comes to Payne you should read UAFC. I am tame in comparison.

former total

Just to clarify; if Payne doesn't play 13 for Ulster, who does? Luke Marshall?

He is not better than Payne.

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

Do you think he has played better for Ulster at 13 than he has at 15?

I think he's a very good attacking 15, and so people are very excited by what they see him doing there, but it's not as important as what he brings to the team at 13. And Ireland need that just as much as Ulster do. Ireland don't need him at 15, we have one of the best in the business there and he's much better at the basics from 15 than Payne ever will be.

bilston

former total wrote: »

Just to clarify; if Payne doesn't play 13 for Ulster, who does? Luke Marshall?

He is not better than Payne.

Two options for this weekend.

1)
Pienaar
Jackson
Gilroy
McCloskey
Marshall
Trimble
Payne

or
2)
Pienaar
Jackson
Scholes
McCloskey
Payne
Trimble
Gilroy

Option 1 every time.

awec

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think he's a very good attacking 15, and so people are very excited by what they see him doing there, but it's not as important as what he brings to the team at 13. And Ireland need that just as much as Ulster do. Ireland don't need him at 15, we have one of the best in the business there and he's much better at the basics from 15 than Payne ever will be.

That doesn't answer the question though.

If Ireland really need him at 13 he should honestly leave Ulster. Ulster have at least two better 13s than him. Let him become some other provinces problem.

awec

former total wrote: »

Just to clarify; if Payne doesn't play 13 for Ulster, who does? Luke Marshall?

He is not better than Payne.

Yea he is. At 13 he 100% is.

Utah_Saint

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think he's a very good attacking 15, and so people are very excited by what they see him doing there, but it's not as important as what he brings to the team at 13. And Ireland need that just as much as Ulster do. Ireland don't need him at 15, we have one of the best in the business there and he's much better at the basics from 15 than Payne ever will be.

I can see we are almost edging into a club vs country debate...:)

Us nordies love a good political debate about national interests...:D

awec

Utah_Saint wrote: »

I can see we are almost edging into a club vs country debate...:)

Us nordies love a good political debate about national interests...:D

Ireland need Payne more at 15 too in fairness.

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

That doesn't answer the question though.

If Ireland really need him at 13 he should honestly leave Ulster. Ulster have at least two better 13s than him. Let him become some other provinces problem.

It does answer the question. It's not just Irish coaches selecting him at 13.

Maybe UAFC are right. Or maybe they don't actually know what they're on about and every professional coach who has ever worked with Jared Payne are right.

Ulster don't have any 13s better than Payne at the moment. Marshall might well become one, Olding will probably become one, both will benefit as they continue to work with him. [EDIT: As will Henshaw/Ringrose in Irish camp]

awec

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It does answer the question. It's not just Irish coaches selecting him at 13.

Maybe UAFC are right. Or maybe they don't actually know what they're on about and every professional coach who has ever worked with Jared Payne are right.

Ulster don't have any 13s better than Payne at the moment. Marshall might well become one, Olding will probably become one, both will benefit as they continue to work with him. [EDIT: As will Henshaw/Ringrose in Irish camp]

Marshall and Cave are both better than him.

Ulster are better with Marshall at 13.

Ulster are better with Cave at 13.

Marshall has been more impressive at 13 these past few weeks than Payne ever has been.

Do you think Payne has been better for Ulster at 13 than he has at 15? I am asking you, not his coaches.

If this 13 nonsense continues I would honestly be delighted to see him leave. We could really use him at fullback, he is quality there and to be honest was unrivalled in Ireland when he played there. If he insists on placing centre he is a complete waste of money.

former total

bilston wrote: »

Two options for this weekend.

1)
Pienaar
Jackson
Gilroy
McCloskey
Marshall
Trimble
Payne

or
2)
Pienaar
Jackson
Scholes
McCloskey
Payne
Trimble
Gilroy

Option 1 every time.

All that tells us is that Gilroy isn't a FB.

Put a proper full back into team 2 and it looks much better. Ludik, Nelson or Piutau, a vast improvement.

Marshall has quite a way to go before he's in the conversation.

Zzippy

My €0.02: Agree with the Ulster lads, Payne is a better 15 than 13. He's a decent 13, he's much better at 15. He's played 13 because that's where he was needed most, especially for Ireland, and because our best 13 had to play 12. Now we have options at 12 and 13 coming through, he won't be needed as much to fill in and we should really look to play him in his best position. He's far far better at 15 than the options we have been playing as backup to Kearney, and would seriously push RK for the starting jersey if he was given the time there.

stephen_n

I think you might be underestimating slightly how much Payne himself wanted to play there.

awec

stephen_n wrote: »

I think you might be underestimating slightly how much Payne himself wanted to play there.

Nope, I know how much he wanted to play there. However it has got to the point where he needs to be told he is playing 15 or be shown the door.

He's had his shot at 13, other lads have done better. Back to full back.

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

Marshall and Cave are both better than him.

Ulster are better with Marshall at 13.

Ulster are better with Cave at 13.

Marshall has been more impressive at 13 these past few weeks than Payne ever has been.

Do you think Payne has been better for Ulster at 13 than he has at 15? I am asking you, not his coaches.

If this 13 nonsense continues I would honestly be delighted to see him leave. We could really use him at fullback, he is quality there and to be honest was unrivalled in Ireland when he played there. If he insists on placing centre he is a complete waste of money.

I did answer the question. Ulster are better with Payne at 13 (I think he shines more at 15 but it's not remotely as important as 13). I've said that. You didn't answer my question though, are all these professional coaches just out to get Ulster?

If Ulster were better with Marshall or Cave at 13 then they would play at 13, there's absolutely no reason why Payne would play ahead of them given they're all Irish Qualified. In reality, Cave has been overlooked consistently throughout his career for a reason, and Luke Marshall is an exceptional talent who is in an oft-disrupted process of converting across to 13 and unfortunately perhaps one major head knock away from retirement.

With a bit of luck Marshall or Olding will take over from Payne when they're ready and they'll then be in the frame for Ireland. Until then Payne will be starting there for club and country unless perhaps Henshaw is given a run at 13 (which is something I'd like to see).

bilston

former total wrote: »

Marshall has quite a way to go before he's in the conversation.

Flip, if Garry Ringrose had been performing like Marshall over the last couple of months the Indo would have him captaining the Lions:D

former total

Usually these comments about player X wanting to play in position Y get blown out of all proportion.

Payne will play where he's told and where the coaches think he fits best and he'll be happy to do so. At the moment that's 13 and I don't see it changing for the Six Nations, because we have no one to take the jersey.

former total

bilston wrote: »

Flip, if Garry Ringrose had been performing like Marshall over the last couple of months the Indo would have him captaining the Lions:D

FWIW, I think Ringrose is exactly where he should be, on the fringes of the Leinster team.

bilston

I've no idea about how much Payne wanted to play 13 or not. He got thrown under the bus a bit by a previous Ulster coach in this respect.

A lot of the hate for Payne seems to come from members of the Darren Cave fan club on uafc. I try and look at it from the point of view of what's best for Ulster and Ireland.

Payne at FB has always been best for Ulster
Payne at centre was best for Ireland, however as I've said already I think Payne playing FB is better for Ireland now.

I do agree that it is unlikely Joe will ditch the Payne at 13 plan, but ,aye gradually we could see Henshaw move out one with McCloskey introduced gently at 12.

It's all up in the air. I was thinking earlier that the Irish team for Wales is completely up in the air at the minute. Between injuries, retirements, and the beginning of a new WC cycle (not that I think that matters massively) it is probably harder than ever to pick the Irish team this year.

Best, Toner, SOB, Heaslip, Murray, Sexton and Kearney are the only players that you would get the house on as getting starts.

irishbucsfan

former total wrote: »

FWIW, I think Ringrose is exactly where he should be, on the fringes of the Leinster team.

And Marshall made his debut for Ireland when he was 21 in the 6 Nations, and the media were talking a lot about him before that iirc

Don't think Ringrose will make his 6 Nations debut this year.

Zzippy

former total wrote: »

Usually these comments about player X wanting to play in position Y get blown out of all proportion.

Payne will play where he's told and where the coaches think he fits best and he'll be happy to do so. At the moment that's 13 and I don't see it changing for the Six Nations, because we have no one to take the jersey.

Sorry but that's nonsense. Henshaw is easily good enough to take the jersey, he has only been played at 12 because needs must, but he should be first choice at 13 as soon as we can trust a 12, which IMO McCloskey is ready for.

former total

Zzippy wrote: »

Sorry but that's nonsense. Henshaw is easily good enough to take the jersey, he has only been played at 12 because needs must, but he should be first choice at 13 as soon as we can trust a 12, which IMO McCloskey is ready for.

It's not a slight on any player, it's just the reality. I know Henshaw is a very good 13.

That midfield has never played together, a 12 who has never played with Sexton, being thrown into a 6N game that Joe simply has to win? I'd be very surprised.

And this will NOT go down well but... I want to see more of McCloskey against quality opposition before I get on the bandwagon.

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

That doesn't answer the question though.

If Ireland really need him at 13 he should honestly leave Ulster. Ulster have at least two better 13s than him. Let him become some other provinces problem.

Jesus, Payne is a problem now because you're demands haven't been met! I'd love Leinster to have a problem like Payne.

Zzippy

molloyjh wrote: »

Jesus, Payne is a problem now because you're demands haven't been met! I'd love Leinster to have a problem like Payne.

Me and awec have decided that you can have him instead of Henshaw!

molloyjh

Zzippy wrote: »

Me and awec have decided that you can have him instead of Henshaw!

Hey who are you to deny Henshaw the move he wants. Awec wants rid so we'd be doing Ukster a favour. And having Henshaw and Payne is a problem I think we can manage. :pac:

shuffol

bilston wrote: »

The thing is we have two maybe three altermatives at 13. Robbie Henshaw, Luke Marshall and Luke Fitzgerald.

I like Fitz at 12 but he'll never be a test level 13 for me.

Payne was playing awful at 13 at the start of last season but for Ireland he makes a huge contribution, some players are just better suited to test rugby due to nous/intelligence in their position, this is certainly the case with Payne. It's also the case with R.Kearney, he may not get fans off their seats but for the nuts and bolts of FB play he's unrivaled. I think it would take an injury to Kearney for Payne to get a look in at FB and then perhaps we could have a proper debate. Either that or we start the 6N poorly and some other options are looked at with long term in mind.

For Ulster however there's no doubt that they're better served with Payne at 15.

awec

molloyjh wrote: »

Jesus, Payne is a problem now because you're demands haven't been met! I'd love Leinster to have a problem like Payne.

He has always been a problem since his move to centre. The problem is just resurfacing again because Marshalls stint there now, like Cave before him, has been much better than Payne ever was.

Ulster are a weaker side with Payne at 13. This is there in the performances for all to see. It's not something based off one or two games, he has had an extended run there and has never excelled.

Pink Fairy

molloyjh wrote: »

It's very early days in that regard. There's an entire culture shift required to get people moving freely between provinces. And if a guy can get more money abroad and chooses to do so it is utterly illegal to stop it. So this whole game of point the finger at Nucifora that seems to be so popular these days is unfounded.

Nucifora's job is to promote the Irish game, we have Moore leaving and he could be the answer to a certain provinces needs...and still he's leaving? It's daft, think we are going to see more players leaving Ireland at this rate, weakens the provinces and in turn it weakens the national side. So imo finger pointing is justified

molloyjh

Pink Fairy wrote: »

Nucifora's job is to promote the Irish game, we have Moore leaving and he could be the answer to a certain provinces needs...and still he's leaving? It's daft, think we are going to see more players leaving Ireland at this rate, weakens the provinces and in turn it weakens the national side. So imo finger pointing is justified

And what would you like him to do exactly? Put a gun to their heads? Can you think of a single thing he can do that he is not?

Would players leaving not strengthen the national side? We're forced to blood new players sooner at provincial level.

English Lurker

molloyjh wrote: »

And what would you like him to do exactly? Put a gun to their heads? Can you think of a single thing he can do that he is not?

Permit provinces to outbid each other so that one of the other provinces with a genuine need for Moore might put together a financial packet that approached what Wasps were willing to pay?

I appreciate there's a huge number of issues that comes with that.

stephen_n

English Lurker wrote: »

Permit provinces to outbid each other so that one of the other provinces with a genuine need for Moore might put together a financial packet that approached what Wasps were willing to pay?

I appreciate there's a huge number of issues that comes with that.

Given the financial states of the provinces, that might well suit Leinster and Ulster but screw Munster & Connacht. Plus it would negatively impact on future contract negotiations with other players. I'd imagine the IRFU are going to have to consider banning players who move abroad from playing test rugby.

molloyjh

English Lurker wrote: »

Permit provinces to outbid each other so that one of the other provinces with a genuine need for Moore might put together a financial packet that approached what Wasps were willing to pay?

I appreciate there's a huge number of issues that comes with that.

The provinces still can't compete financially with the big English and French clubs. I'm wary of using Moore as the sample case because nothing at all is confirmed there. We simply don't know enough about it. But I can guarantee here and now that no player of Moores stature would move from Leinster to Munster or Connacht. It's even debatable whether they'd move to Ulster. No offence intended to the other provinces but if a player like Moore, who will be a regular in Irish match day squads for seasons to come, is going to leave a side it will be to further his career. He's not going to do that at Munster or at Connacht.

Neil3030

stephen_n wrote: »

Given the financial states of the provinces, that might well suit Leinster and Ulster but screw Munster & Connacht. Plus it would negatively impact on future contract negotiations with other players. I'd imagine the IRFU are going to have to consider banning players who move abroad from playing test rugby.

And or lobby for the tax rules to be changed.

1eg0a3xv7b82of

Very worrying news with cronin and Moore. The provinces cannot afford to keep them.
The next few years are going to be really tough for the provinces.
They will pay high to keep what they consider are their main players, letting players like moore and Cronin go due to wage restrictions and fill out their squads with youth.
but in doing so they will have squads with huge differences in wages and talent and this will eventually cause splits.
The money men always ruin everything good.

errlloyd

Longer contracts are going to become the norm I think. They're financially risky, but they give the squad greater stability.

Mahatma Geansai

Hopefully Ulster play Payne at 15 and Joe follows suit with Ireland. A fullback who offers an attacking and playmaking threat would add significantly to the Irish backline.

I'd like to see the following backline for the 6N, but I won't hold my breath.

Murray, Sexton;
Earls, McCloskey, Henshaw, Trimble;
Payne.

wp_rathead

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Hopefully Ulster play Payne at 15 and Joe follows suit with Ireland. A fullback who offers an attacking and playmaking threat would add significantly to the Irish backline.

I'd like to see the following backline for the 6N, but I won't hold my breath.

Murray, Sexton;
Earls, McCloskey, Henshaw, Trimble;
Payne.

Swap Earls with Fitzgerald and that's the team I'd like see aswell

Mahatma Geansai

awec wrote: »

He has always been a problem since his move to centre. The problem is just resurfacing again because Marshalls stint there now, like Cave before him, has been much better than Payne ever was.

Ulster are a weaker side with Payne at 13. This is there in the performances for all to see. It's not something based off one or two games, he has had an extended run there and has never excelled.

The only problem with Payne playing at 15 is the imminent arrival of Piutau.

LostArt

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Hopefully Ulster play Payne at 15 and Joe follows suit with Ireland. A fullback who offers an attacking and playmaking threat would add significantly to the Irish backline.

I'd like to see the following backline for the 6N, but I won't hold my breath.

Murray, Sexton;
Earls, McCloskey, Henshaw, Trimble;
Payne.

I'd love to see that tbh, though there is no hope in hell R Kearney won't play if fit.

English Lurker

molloyjh wrote: »

The provinces still can't compete financially with the big English and French clubs. I'm wary of using Moore as the sample case because nothing at all is confirmed there. We simply don't know enough about it. But I can guarantee here and now that no player of Moores stature would move from Leinster to Munster or Connacht. It's even debatable whether they'd move to Ulster. No offence intended to the other provinces but if a player like Moore, who will be a regular in Irish match day squads for seasons to come, is going to leave a side it will be to further his career. He's not going to do that at Munster or at Connacht.

Is he still going to be a regular in Irish match day squads with his move abroad? My impression is there was enough other tightheads around to make that uncertain for him. I'd agree Leinster to any of the others is a step down (arguably, even Wasps is at this point), but so's international regular to no internationals.

Maybe Moore's particular situation means he can ignore that, but there will be guys at some point in the future where they won't. In which case, money talks. Maybe Munster or Ulster couldn't have matched Wasps - but maybe they could have got close enough, particularly if Moore has to consider the loss of international match payments.

Certainly, I think it stands as a potential option in future in some form, if not in this case; I know I've heard of some incredible lowballing going out at some of the provinces (and provincial CEOs might well feel better a player goes to England than rival).

stephen_n wrote: »

Given the financial states of the provinces, that might well suit Leinster and Ulster but screw Munster & Connacht. Plus it would negatively impact on future contract negotiations with other players. I'd imagine the IRFU are going to have to consider banning players who move abroad from playing test rugby.

All true.

Maybe a case by case relaxation? Or a hit list of strategically important players? Perhaps the answer is to allow players to say "I'm not staying at my home province, can I talk to the other provinces before I sign for abroad"?

I dunno. Maybe it's just flat out not possible. But I think it should be at least looked at.

Bridge93

I still can't really get my head around the Piutau deal. Ulster have outside backs coming out their ears and a poor enough pack and back up half backs. Surely the money and NIQ spot is better spent elsewhere?