Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Not true, the other provinces can make better offers when he's looking abroad. Exactly what happened with Jamie Hagan when he was going to go to the not-nots.

First I've ever heard of that, which province outbid which?

errlloyd

Moore has always been fairly businesslike about his contract. Getting off the academy one early, always signing one year deals to keep his options open. Who is his agent?

irishbucsfan

Harley Uptight Light wrote: »

First I've ever heard of that, which province outbid which?

Connacht were outbid by the foreigners, then at the last minute Leinster came in and convinced him to stay in Ireland

jm08

errlloyd wrote: »

Moore has always been fairly businesslike about his contract. Getting off the academy one early, always signing one year deals to keep his options open. Who is his agent?

Niall Woods is his agent.

Murray Kinsella on the whole saga. Seems he wanted a central contract.

http://www.the42.ie/marty-moore-ian-madigan-shifting-ground-2548382-Jan2016/

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Connacht were outbid by the foreigners, then at the last minute Leinster came in and convinced him to stay in Ireland

Are you sure that was with an offer that was above what Connacht offered? Or has Connacht withdrawn their offer at that point maybe? Because I've heard people up to and including Schmidt say that the provinces can't compete on wages.

case885

errlloyd wrote:

Moore has always been fairly businesslike about his contract. Getting off the academy one early, always signing one year deals to keep his options open. Who is his agent?

Niall woods according to an article a few years ago, he could have changed since then though.

former total

Sorry now but there is no way Marty Moore was being offered 90k. That's not credible at all.

irishbucsfan

former total wrote: »

Sorry now but there is no way Marty Moore was being offered 90k. That's not credible at all.

No, it could be what he's on currently perhaps. I think those numbers come from the Wasps side.

awec

BTW back to Payne.

He's out of contract this summer

molloyjh

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I think the discussion about Payne and Cave has related to their performances at Ulster, rather than for Ireland.

Yeah I think Payne is one of those guys who can transfer his ability as a centre directly from club level to Test level. Whereas Cave is the kind of guy who is far better at club level than he ever will be at Test level. That ultimately means that Payne is a better Test centre but Cave (or Marshall) is better for Ulster. If that makes any sense.

English Lurker

irishbucsfan wrote: »

No, it could be what he's on currently perhaps. I think those numbers come from the Wasps side.

Don't know where molloyjh heard it from, but I heard it from a Munster fan who's normally been quite reliable in the past.

molloyjh

English Lurker wrote: »

Don't know where molloyjh heard it from, but I heard it from a Munster fan who's normally been quite reliable in the past.

I actually don't remember where I heard it from. Might well have been from LeinsterFans, who probably got it from the Wasps forum.

mfceiling

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yeah I can't understand how people don't see the quality of Payne at 13. His skill set there is much better than his skill set at 15 which I think as a position is a bit of a waste of his talents.

Similarly I agree that Cave doesn't step up to International level well and his inability to push ahead of Earls here speaks volumes.

This kills me having to argue this point.

Cave gets a game in an absolute hotch potch of an irish backline and then gets criticized as not showing anything.

Payne/Earls get steady games in the settled irish backline and neither do great (or particularly bad).

Then we hear "ah sure Cave isn't international standard"

He is a great defender, has great hands and runs some of the best trailing lines you will watch a 13 run....check his tries...the amount of times he is on an attackers shoulder or in space for a try scoring pass is great.

I genuinely believe ireland wouldn't be weaker with him at 13 than with Payne...and he's comfortably a better 13 than Earls....just to defend Earls and say he is a smashing winger.

Journeyman_1

Wasn't it one of these lowball offers that pissed Sexton off and convinced him to head to France? I thought the IRFU had learned from that.

jacothelad

mfceiling wrote: »

This kills me having to argue this point.

Cave gets a game in an absolute hotch potch of an irish backline and then gets criticized as not showing anything.

Payne/Earls get steady games in the settled irish backline and neither do great (or particularly bad).

Then we hear "ah sure Cave isn't international standard"

He is a great defender, has great hands and runs some of the best trailing lines you will watch a 13 run....check his tries...the amount of times he is on an attackers shoulder or in space for a try scoring pass is great.

I genuinely believe ireland wouldn't be weaker with him at 13 than with Payne...and he's comfortably a better 13 than Earls....just to defend Earls and say he is a smashing winger.

You're wasting your time. The jury is in and Cave is convicted of mediocrity given all those 'chances' he's had playing mainly out of position for and with the dirt trackers. Let's just benefit at Ulster from his continued presence while 'superior' 13s - like Earls get to be internationally mediocre time and again. Payne is a very good 13 btw, Keet is not.

former total

I can see some logic in saying that a coach has got it wrong in preferring Payne (or Earls) to Cave at 13.

But they can't ALL be wrong.

irishbucsfan

jacothelad wrote: »

You're wasting your time. The jury is in and Cave is convicted of mediocrity given all those 'chances' he's had playing for and with the dirt trackers. Let's just benefit at Ulster from his continued presence while 'superior' 13s - like Earls get to be internationally mediocre time and again.

I don't think Cave was ever given a great chance. I don't think there was ever a time when he was the best choice either. Players don't just get a chance at an Ireland jersey by virtue of their existence I'm afraid.

Gatland says to be an elite player you need to possess two of three attributes, speed, power and skill. I think he has the skill he just doesn't have breakaway speed or the power to put in a big hit or hold defenders in the line when off the ball. That's not to say he's slow or weak, he just doesn't threaten with either of those attributes. He is someone who is very solid and extremely capable when he gets the ball in his hands. He's also always going to be a fan favourite because of the type of player he is and the way he came into the team.

Ultimately I think we'll see more opportunity for the likes of Henshaw/McCloskey who can threaten both with their skillset and their athleticism. Ringrose seems to have a lot of pace as well, I'm hoping Olding also has that still. It'll be impossible to look beyond those guys long-term I'd imagine.

awec

former total wrote: »

I can see some logic in saying that a coach has got it wrong in preferring Payne (or Earls) to Cave at 13.

But they can't ALL be wrong.

The only ones who are relevant are Anscombe and Doak given they are the only ones who have managed him within the Ulster squad. Don't really care where he played for previous teams, perhaps they had other top class options at 15 and some really crap options at 13 (i.e. the total opposite to Ulster).

When Payne plays 13 for Ulster we are weakened in two positions, 15 and 13. That is just a fact.

Anscombe was definitely wrong to play him at 13 given that doing so cost us a pro12 semi final.

Doak was definitely wrong too, as evidenced by the fact he was never that good relative to the other players who can play there.

.ak

awec wrote: »

When Payne plays 13 for Ulster we are weakened in two positions, 15 and 13. That is just a fact.

No, that's an opinion.

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

The only ones who are relevant are Anscombe and Doak given they are the only ones who have managed him within the Ulster squad. Don't really care where he played for previous teams, perhaps they had other top class options at 15 and some really crap options at 13 (i.e. the total opposite to Ulster).

When Payne plays 13 for Ulster we are weakened in two positions, 15 and 13. That is just a fact.

You know just because you say "that is a fact" at the end of a sentence it doesn't change it from being an opinion? It's not a magic phrase I'm afraid.

It's easy to just say you don't care about other teams, but the reality is Pat Lam made the exact same decision that Anscombe, Kiss, Doak and Schmidt made. Blackadder played him less at 13 but he played more at 14 for the Crusaders than he did at fullback, he was very much their utility option (coming off the bench to replace Freuan at 13 as well).

He was picked at 13 ahead of Benson Stanley by the way. His next stop was Clermont.

awec

.ak wrote: »

No, that's an opinion.

Does anyone, anyone on here hold the opinion that Payne has been better for Ulster at 13 than he has been at 15?

Identify yourselves. Present yourselves before me so I can question your sanity.

.ak

awec wrote: »

Does anyone, anyone on here hold the opinion that Payne has been better for Ulster at 13 than he has been at 15?

Identify yourselves. Present yourselves before me so I can question your sanity.

Until recently I would've thought along the same lines as you. But then I saw what he actually brings to 13. He's an incredibly important asset at 13. I would say his abilities are best used at 13, at 15 he may be good at club level but I stand by my earlier statement that he's made look better at 15 than he actually is, due to opposition. In that regards I'm happy to say he's a better 13.

It's the same thing with Ben smith, the space at 15 makes him look like a flash player, stick him at 13 and people thing his as exciting as collecting stamps... But look harder and see what he's actually doing to support his team and suddenly the weight of his impact is realised.

awec

.ak wrote: »

Until recently I would've thought along the same lines as you. But then I saw what he actually brings to 13. He's an incredibly important asset at 13. I would say his abilities are best used at 13, at 15 he may be good at club level but I stand by my earlier statement that he's made look better at 15 than he actually is, due to opposition. In that regards I'm happy to say he's a better 13.

It's the same thing with Ben smith, the space at 15 makes him look like a flash player, stick him at 13 and people thing his as exciting as collecting stamps... But look harder and see what he's actually doing to support his team and suddenly the weight of his impact is realised.

Not for Ulster though! If Joe wants to stick with him at 13 for Ireland so be it (though I really hope not).

Cave and Marshall both bring more. As I said, Luke Marshall has done better these past few weeks than Jared Payne has ever done for Ulster at 13.

Payne brings so much to Ulster at 15 that using him at 13 is just a waste, especially when we have so much talent at 13 who are outperforming him.

mfceiling

mfceiling wrote: »

This kills me having to argue this point.

Cave gets a game in an absolute hotch potch of an irish backline and then gets criticized as not showing anything.

Payne/Earls get steady games in the settled irish backline and neither do great (or particularly bad).

Then we hear "ah sure Cave isn't international standard"

He is a great defender, has great hands and runs some of the best trailing lines you will watch a 13 run....check his tries...the amount of times he is on an attackers shoulder or in space for a try scoring pass is great.

I genuinely believe ireland wouldn't be weaker with him at 13 than with Payne...and he's comfortably a better 13 than Earls....just to defend Earls and say he is a smashing winger.

Its very dismissive of other people's opinions to presume that they are based solely on specific performances.

I think Cave is relatively average for Ulster, but good enough for pro12 rugby. Also, those scratch sides were playing other scratch sides and some of the handful of players that performed, surprisingly, also progressed.

He hasn't made a breakthrough and at this stage he won't. Payne had a few early games for Ulster where he didn't set the world on fire, but otherwise is noticeably better than Cave for Ulster and clearly for Ireland. He should stay at 13 and start building a partnership with McCloskey.

awec

Payne should just move to Leinster, his contract is up this year anyway.

All the Leinster fans seem to want him at 13, all the Ulster fans (and most others) at 15. He can play outside Luke Fitz or Noel Reid for Leinster.

jm08

mfceiling wrote: »

This kills me having to argue this point.

Cave gets a game in an absolute hotch potch of an irish backline and then gets criticized as not showing anything.

Payne/Earls get steady games in the settled irish backline and neither do great (or particularly bad).

Then we hear "ah sure Cave isn't international standard"

He is a great defender, has great hands and runs some of the best trailing lines you will watch a 13 run....check his tries...the amount of times he is on an attackers shoulder or in space for a try scoring pass is great.

I genuinely believe ireland wouldn't be weaker with him at 13 than with Payne...and he's comfortably a better 13 than Earls....just to defend Earls and say he is a smashing winger.

He isn't athletic enough for international rugby - that has always been his big drawback. Also he wouldn't touch Earls when it comes to rucking.

Teferi

awec wrote: »

Payne should just move to Leinster, his contract is up this year anyway.

All the Leinster fans seem to want him at 13, all the Ulster fans (and most others) at 15. He can play outside Luke Fitz or Noel Reid for Leinster.

Payne/Henshaw axis at Leinster, 2016/2017 season is going to be epic.

b.gud

awec wrote: »

Payne should just move to Leinster, his contract is up this year anyway.

All the Leinster fans seem to want him at 13, all the Ulster fans (and most others) at 15. He can play outside Luke Fitz or Noel Reid for Leinster.

Connacht fans approve of this too

mfceiling

jm08 wrote: »

He isn't athletic enough for international rugby - that has always been his big drawback. Also he wouldn't touch Earls when it comes to rucking.

He's plenty athletic. Is Earls great at clearing out rucks? I know who I'd rather have defending the 13 channel...and it's not Earls!!

aimee1

Bazzo wrote: »

90K??? Didn't John Muldoon say in an interview a few years ago that a decent pro 12 player makes somewhere around the 100k mark? That seems ludicrous.

bernard jackman wrote in his book possibly that his contract was worth 150k/year at leinster

jm08

mfceiling wrote: »

He's plenty athletic. Is Earls great at clearing out rucks? I know who I'd rather have defending the 13 channel...and it's not Earls!!

Murray Kinsella did some analysis on Ireland during the warmup games and Earls was one of the top 3 ruckers with being first to a ruck (No. 1) and effectiveness.

I don't think Cave has the engine to be able to do that.

Why is everyone being so mean to Earls

Yeah_Right

awec wrote: »

Does anyone, anyone on here hold the opinion that Payne has been better for Ulster at 13 than he has been at 15?

Identify yourselves. Present yourselves before me so I can question your sanity.

I do. Question away

Pink Fairy

Journeyman_1 wrote: »

Wasn't it one of these lowball offers that pissed Sexton off and convinced him to head to France? I thought the IRFU had learned from that.

Sexton cut off his nose to spite his face, wasted 2 years of his career in France if he was honest

awec

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I do. Question away

Aren't you a kiwi?

Sure what would a kiwi know about rugby?

irishbucsfan

Pink Fairy wrote: »

Sexton cut off his nose to spite his face, wasted 2 years of his career in France if he was honest

Wasted 2 years of his career making lots and lots of cash! Also picked up 2 6 Nations medals those years, which is what we'll see when we look back on his career, didn't really miss much at Leinster.

Pink Fairy

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Wasted 2 years of his career making lots and lots of cash! Also picked up 2 6 Nations medals those years, which is what we'll see when we look back on his career, didn't really miss much at Leinster.

He made a mistake and he knew it. He had signed to return to Leinster inside 12 months of leaving, won nothing at club level while there and neither fans nor players were sorry to see the back of him.... And yet, he got a pay rise to come back!! #kerching

irishbucsfan

Pink Fairy wrote: »

He made a mistake and he knew it. He had signed to return to Leinster inside 12 months of leaving, won nothing at club level while there and neither fans nor players were sorry to see the back of him.... And yet, he got a pay rise to come back!! #kerching

I don't think you'll find he agrees with you on that one.

No idea where you're getting the idea fans wanted to see the back of him. The idea players didn't like him is also massively overstated, I'm sure in a couple of years we'll hear from ROG on it and he'll point that out.

Yeah_Right

awec wrote: »

Aren't you a kiwi?

Sure what would a kiwi know about rugby?

Very true

I'm a Blues fan and that obviously skews my view on Payne. He had a great season at centre for the Blues and I was gutted when he signed with Ulster. If he had stayed in NZ and kept his form, I'm certain he would have got some game time in the ABs midfield.

thomond2006

Pink Fairy wrote: »

He made a mistake and he knew it. He had signed to return to Leinster inside 12 months of leaving, won nothing at club level while there and neither fans nor players were sorry to see the back of him.... And yet, he got a pay rise to come back!! #kerching

Would you call #kerching a mistake?

Pink Fairy

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I don't think you'll find he agrees with you on that one.

No idea where you're getting the idea fans wanted to see the back of him. The idea players didn't like him is also massively overstated, I'm sure in a couple of years we'll hear from ROG on it and he'll point that out.

Eh? It's no secret that a lot of fans thought he was at best, ordinary in a Metro shirt. He had a frosty relationship with teammates , reports of arguments and his coach not overly enthused with him.
As for him not regretting it..genuinely, I think he will, he's come back and isn't the same player. If Paddy Jackson was a 90% kicker he'd start ahead of him i think.
I believe injuries and concussion have played a big part in Sextons career recently and have a feeling that he's 1 concussion away from taking a long break from the game.

Pink Fairy

thomond2006 wrote: »

Would you call #kerching a mistake?

Yes, def from the irfu point of view, he'd nowhere else to go and they gave him a pay rise to come home

irishbucsfan

Pink Fairy wrote: »

Eh? It's no secret that a lot of fans thought he was at best, ordinary in a Metro shirt. He had a frosty relationship with teammates , reports of arguments and his coach not overly enthused with him.
As for him not regretting it..genuinely, I think he will, he's come back and isn't the same player. If Paddy Jackson was a 90% kicker he'd start ahead of him i think.
I believe injuries and concussion have played a big part in Sextons career recently and have a feeling that he's 1 concussion away from taking a long break from the game.

Who are these fans? I spoke to a few fans during the World Cup who were big fans. One told me that he'd prefer to keep Sexton over DC. Where are you meeting these fans?

Pink Fairy

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Who are these fans? I spoke to a few fans during the World Cup who were big fans. One told me that he'd prefer to keep Sexton over DC. Where are you meeting these fans?

I'd like to know what bar and how many pimms yourself and these French fans had to say they'd rather have Sexton over Carter

Synode

Pink Fairy wrote: »

neither fans nor players were sorry to see the back of him

irishbucsfan

Pink Fairy wrote: »

I'd like to know what bar and how many pimms yourself and these French fans had to say they'd rather have Sexton over Carter

It was before the French game. There had been a few drinks consumed I must admit, but I believe the honesty of a French person increases by approximately 35% for each glass of wine they consume.

Pink Fairy

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It was before the French game. There had been a few drinks consumed I must admit, but I believe the honesty of a French person increases by approximately 35% for each glass of wine they consume.

Ah, that's only because he told you that you had lips like the reddest Indian rubys and eyes that were like bottomless pools and he was getting lost deep within them.
"Lamour! Lamour! Toujours Lamour!

CatFromHue

Deleted User wrote: »

Why is everyone being so mean to Earls

That reminds me of one of RTE's promos for the 6N where they showed a few action clips. One was of RK booting a ball away under pressure but when you actually watched how he kicked the ball he sliced it terribly.

I suppose the ladies where happy to see RK though.

:pac:

mfceiling

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Very true

I'm a Blues fan and that obviously skews my view on Payne. He had a great season at centre for the Blues and I was gutted when he signed with Ulster. If he had stayed in NZ and kept his form, I'm certain he would have got some game time in the ABs midfield.

Nonu and Conrad!!

Join the queue there Jared...

jm08

Deleted User wrote: »

Why is everyone being so mean to Earls

Inadvertent compliment;)

Nothing worse about being talked about, than not being talked about.