Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

Paul Smeenus

aimee1 wrote: »

Bit like 2014 then

Yes, we should base all our decisions on events two years ago rather than current form. As I understand it, all the other teams in the 6N have agreed to play the same teams as 2014, so no need for us to move forward.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Trimble should be the first winger on the team sheet as far as I'm concerned. He's the only winger (that Schmidt likes) who has maintained the same decent level of form all season. Dave K, Earls, Zebo they've all been too inconsistent to warrant Trimble being left out.
I'm sure one of them will end up on the other wing. At this point I'd go with Fitzgerald on the bench. He can cover wing and centre. If Henshaw or Payne are on the pitch they can cover FB if necessary.

The Rape of Lucretia

swiwi_ wrote: »

I would say I really hope Schmidt goes with Jackson on the bench at 10, and finds other ways to cover the centres and outside backs.

The Ringrose manoeuvre could facilitate what you want on this point too - he can kick, which would help Paddy's chances of making the bench. Ringrose would need some regular kicking game time, but maybe for Leinster during this 6N with Mads away.

I don't think selections should be made based on one instance or even one game but Schmidt surely had to take notice of Jackson nailing that kick against Oyonnax.

I don't think Payne or Ross will start, I think it's really tough to justify those selections. Payne hasn't played all season up to now and he's started at 15 for Ulster, it's hard to see that changing. Ross I don't think makes the Leinster 23 now quite frankly. Furlong and Moore for me to fight it out for the starting spot, probably go to Moore.

Midfield I think and hope he'll pick Henshaw and McCloskey, and I also think Ruddock will start at 6. Wingers is up in the air, not sure anyone is nailed on like Bowe would be if he was fit. Kearney, Trimble, Earls, Fitz all in contention, I think Zebo will be left out and I think that's probably the right call.

Ringrose, I genuinely believe we're seeing a top tier player emerge before us, but this is a season to soon for international rugby. If it goes badly for him it does nobody any good. I'm happy for him to start for Leinster in the big games at 13, throw him in again next week sure, but come back in the summer or next season for international rugby. Definitely have him in camp though.

swiwi_

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

The Ringrose manoeuvre could facilitate what you want on this point too - he can kick, which would help Paddy's chances of making the bench. Ringrose would need some regular kicking game time, but maybe for Leinster during this 6N with Mads away.

If Ringrose was already capped, especially against decent opposition, he would be a dead cert imo.

My view is that Henshaw is a better 13 than 12, but if you play Payne in the centre you are obliged to move Robbie one in.

I've quite liked the look of Henshaw at 15, Payne can also play at 15, whereas Ringrose and McCloskey strike me as pure centres.

You have to think about age too, Payne is 30.

swiwi_

Harley Uptight Light wrote: »

I don't think selections should be made based on one instance or even one game but Schmidt surely had to take notice of Jackson nailing that kick against Oyonnax.

I don't think Payne or Ross will start, I think it's really tough to justify those selections. Payne hasn't played all season up to now and he's started at 15 for Ulster, it's hard to see that changing. Ross I don't think makes the Leinster 23 now quite frankly. Furlong and Moore for me to fight it out for the starting spot, probably go to Moore.

Midfield I think and hope he'll pick Henshaw and McCloskey, and I also think Ruddock will start at 6. Wingers is up in the air, not sure anyone is nailed on like Bowe would be if he was fit. Kearney, Trimble, Earls, Fitz all in contention, I think Zebo will be left out and I think that's probably the right call.

Ringrose, I genuinely believe we're seeing a top tier player emerge before us, but this is a season to soon for international rugby. If it goes badly for him it does nobody any good. I'm happy for him to start for Leinster in the big games at 13, throw him in again next week sure, but come back in the summer or next season for international rugby. Definitely have him in camp though.

You argue well IO. I don't think it would be too risky to play Ringrose vs Italy. The ITs strike me already as a sure bet for zero wins and the wooden spoon, although you can never discount Scotland to underwhelm.

1eg0a3xv7b82of

i think this will be the 23 if fit
healy best ross
mccarthy toner
ruddock heaslip obrien
murray sexton
henshaw payne
trimble kearney kearney

mcgrath strauss moore
ryan
stander
reddan madigan zebo

earls white and jordi murphy are the only real outside bets.

sydthebeat

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

aimee1 wrote: »

Bit like 2014 then

Yes, we should base all our decisions on events two years ago rather than current form. As I understand it, all the other teams in the 6N have agreed to play the same teams as 2014, so no need for us to move forward.

Well to be honest if your picking on "current form" Dave Kearney is ahead of gilroy and zebo for the 11 shirt, and possibly only has Luke fitz ahead of him there. At 14 its between Trimble and earls, neither off whom is actually playing at dk's current level either.

Paul Smeenus

I'd don't get why we'd put Ringrose in ahead of Marshall, who is performing better.

Especially given how het up we get about partnerships and understanding - Stu and Luke have a really nice balance and rhythm to their partnership.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

swiwi_ wrote: »

If Ringrose was already capped, especially against decent opposition, he would be a dead cert imo.

My view is that Henshaw is a better 13 than 12, but if you play Payne in the centre you are obliged to move Robbie one in.

I've quite liked the look of Henshaw at 15, Payne can also play at 15, whereas Ringrose and McCloskey strike me as pure centres.

Ringrose played on the wing a few times for Leinster and did okay but I'd hate to see another promising player shunted about the pitch and never given the chance to nail down the one position.
I remember before the WC ROG was on RTÉ and they were talking about who would make the squad and he was saying that it's all well and good having versatile players but it's specialists who win you matches.

With McCloskey and Ringrose we have the opportunity to have a 12/13 partnership that is 100% a 12/13 partnership. I don't expect to see it at this 6 Nations, maybe not even in the summer but eventually it must happen.

swiwi_

swiwi_ wrote: »

You argue well IO. I don't think it would be too risky to play Ringrose vs Italy. The ITs strike me already as a sure bet for zero wins and the wooden spoon, although you can never discount Scotland to underwhelm.

No you're probably right there, but for Ireland Schmidt hasn't really done any mixing-and-matching for the craic (that I can remember) so I'm not really seeing it.

Paul Smeenus

sydthebeat wrote: »

Well to be honest if your picking on "current form" Dave Kearney is ahead of gilroy and zebo for the 11 shirt, and possibly only has Luke fitz ahead of him there. At 14 its between Trimble and earls, neither off whom is actually playing at dk's current level either.

That's patently nonsense. Trimble has been playing better that Kearney.bid go Earls and Trimble.

Look - ill dial it down. I disagree. I think Kearney is a decent standby at international level. No more.

swiwi_

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

I'd don't get why we'd put Ringrose in ahead of Marshall, who is performing better.

Especially given how het up we get about partnerships and understanding - Stu and Luke have a really nice balance and rhythm to their partnership.

Marshall is a dark horse, potential bolter alright. Bit of a forgotten man. He deserves a wider squad call-up imo, but I'm really not sure he's the man to lock down the 13 jersey for Ireland for the years to come, although he is still young.

Just the fact he's playing again, and at a good level, is a real credit to the guy, obviously has a good work ethic.

Paul Smeenus

swiwi_ wrote: »

Marshall is a dark horse, potential bolter alright. Bit of a forgotten man. He deserves a wider squad call-up imo, but I'm really not sure he's the man to lock down the 13 jersey for Ireland for the years to come, although he is still young.

Just the fact he's playing again, and at a good level, is a real credit to the guy, obviously has a good work ethic.

I understand the excitement about Ringrose, and the palpable relief from Leinster fans that they have some kind of new talent in midfield. But I think that relief is blinding them to the reality of the cold lighting day - Marshal has been the best 13 in Ireland this season, and is developing a great bond with McCloskey. He's also - what? 23? Maybe 24?

I wouldn't let Payne back near the 13 jersey for Ulster.

The Rape of Lucretia

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

With McCloskey and Ringrose we have the opportunity to have a 12/13 partnership that is 100% a 12/13 partnership. I don't expect to see it at this 6 Nations, maybe not even in the summer but eventually it must happen.

This does seem to be the future all right. Which leaves Hench hanging.
A couple of years to and fro at full back with Rob until Rob retires and its his for keeps ?

swiwi_

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

I understand the excitement about Ringrose, and the palpable relief from Leinster fans that they have some kind of new talent in midfield. But I think that relief is blinding them to the reality of the cold lighting day - Marshal has been the best 13 in Ireland this season, and is developing a great bond with McCloskey. He's also - what? 23? Maybe 24?

I wouldn't let Payne back near the 13 jersey for Ulster.

Well one could also argue that your being an Ulster fan is clouding your view. But I won't

stephen_n

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Yes, we should base all our decisions on events two years ago rather than current form. As I understand it, all the other teams in the 6N have agreed to play the same teams as 2014, so no need for us to move forward.

And yet you want to ignore current form and pick based on one poor performance or possibly a pre-existing bias.
Who should be on the wing in your opinion, which winger in the shake up is playing better at this time?

Paul Smeenus

swiwi_ wrote: »

Well one could also argue that your being an Ulster fan is clouding your view. But I won't

I could argue that the dearth of new talent that Leinster has produced in the centre in the last five years has resulted in a massive over-reaction from their supporters the first time a guy appears with a bit about him.

But I won't.

( I don't use smilies, but I do mean this in a light-hearted way. It's nevertheless true...)

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

This does seem to be the future all right. Which leaves Hench hanging.
A couple of years to and fro at full back with Rob until Rob retires and its his for keeps ?

I would say Henshaw to FB is the way to go but if he moves to Leinster he's probably going to be playing in the centre, perhaps occasionally at FB if Rob K needs a break. In terms of the Irish team he'd be better staying at Connacht and playing FB regularly. They seem happy enough with the centres they'be been using in his absence.
Between the Provinces we're overrun with centres at the moment. A recognisable international FB other than Rob K is what we're missing.

Paul Smeenus

stephen_n wrote: »

And yet you want to ignore current form and pick based on one poor performance or possibly a pre-existing bias.
Who should be on the wing in your opinion, which winger in the shake up is playing better at this time?

If you actually read what I posted, you'd see I've already said. But I suppose time reading other people's replies is less time composing posts self-consciously using terms like "confirmation bias".

swiwi_

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

I could argue that the dearth of new talent that Leinster has produced in the centre in the last five years has resulted in a massive over-reaction from their supporters the first time a guy appears with a bit about him.

But I won't.

( I don't use smilies, but I do mean this in a light-hearted way. It's nevertheless true...)

I admire your dedication to the anti-smilie cause. Temptation always gets the better of me sadly.

I'm not a leister fan in the strict definition of the term, but he looks class to me albeit untested at higher levels (but an U20 star in the junior rwc in NZ if I'm not mistaken).

Paul Smeenus

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

If you actually read what I posted, you'd see I've already said. But I suppose time reading other people's replies is less time composing posts self-consciously using terms like "confirmation bias".

that's a bit snarky - apologies. But just posting here is basically "confirmation bias" for Leinster fans...

I think we need to shake things up at tight head this year. Would like to see how Furlong fairs and think Ross should probably act more as backup to who ever emerges.

A lot of people have no time for Dave Kearney and that's fair enough. I think if you watch even just his last two performances (Bath & Ospreys) you would see why he is likely to feature this 6N.

Paul Smeenus

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I think we need to shake things up at tight head this year. Would like to see how Furlong fairs and think Ross should probably act more as backup to who ever emerges.

A lot of people have no time for Dave Kearney and that's fair enough. I think if you watch even just his last two performances (Bath & Ospreys) you would see why he is likely to feature this 6N.

Haven't seen the Bath game, in fairness, but certainly the Ospreys game hewas some distance off either of Trimble's performances against Toulouse.

phog

phog wrote: »

I'd start Stander at 8 and Payne at 15 in a game just to show Heaslip & Rob that their names are not automatically on the team sheet.

Start Stander and Payne if they're the best options or start Heaslip and Kearney if they are.

Why you would use the 6N to try and teach some kind of lesson to two professional players is beyond me.

errlloyd

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Haven't seen the Bath game, in fairness, but certainly the Ospreys game hewas some distance off either of Trimble's performances against Toulouse.

Venjur is being quite cheeky in his sample selection. Dave Kearney best two games of the season are Ospreys and Bath. So I don't necessarily think it is fair to judge him purely on those games, and I'd suggest no one here does. (it's important to get a wholistic idea of how good a player is).

However saying Kearney didn't reach trimble levels against Ospreys is just wrong and I'd encourage a rewatch. Trimble did very well to take his try in the away leg, but at home his chip was a very poor decision, brilliantly executed. Kearney had to do an awful lot in tricky conditions away from home for both his tries, and was otherwise very strong around the park.

I think trimble should start for Ireland, but I think the Kearney game against the ospreys deserves serious plaudits.

jm08

Harley Uptight Light wrote: »

Sounds reasonable considering Munster's financial circumstances currently.

Not according to the Munster CEO:

A substantial offer was made to Stephen Moore, which the IRFU originally turned down, and then the “persuasive powers of the right honourable Michael Cheika” came into play. “There was no issue with the money, that’s 100 per cent.”

In the interview with the Munster CEO in yesterday's Irish Times stated:

The Thomond Park debt is, he says, “capital investment. That’s not current annual expenditure. They are two totally different things. You make allowances out of cash flow for paying it. There’s very little difference between our budget and Leinster and Ulster. If there’s a perception that there is a difference, that perception is wrong.

“If any mistake was made, it was the repayment terms rather than the amount. But that is not a financial drain.”

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/munster-chief-keeps-faith-through-trying-time-1.2498605

Paul Smeenus

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Haven't seen the Bath game, in fairness, but certainly the Ospreys game hewas some distance off either of Trimble's performances against Toulouse.

I think Trimble is playing very well, he'll be in the running for the 6N and I'd be happy to see him start. However against Ospreys Dave Kearney scored two tries, one of which is likely to be in the running for try of the tournament yet "should be nowhere near the 6Ns".

I think if we're measuring both players performances fairly and honestly, little or nothing separates them and personally I think Dave is in better form. We'll see what Joe thinks soon enough.

errlloyd

errlloyd wrote: »

Venjur is being quite cheeky in his sample selection.

I chose them as they're his most recent two games, anything else is purely a coincidence.....

Paul Smeenus

errlloyd wrote: »

Venjur is being quite cheeky in his sample selection. Dave Kearney best two games of the season are Ospreys and Bath. So I don't necessarily think it is fair to judge him purely on those games, and I'd suggest no one here does. (it's important to get a wholistic idea of how good a player is).

However saying Kearney didn't reach trimble levels against Ospreys is just wrong and I'd encourage a rewatch. Trimble did very well to take his try in the away leg, but at home his chip was a very poor decision, brilliantly executed. Kearney had to do an awful lot in tricky conditions away from home for both his tries, and was otherwise very strong around the park.

I think trimble should start for Ireland, but I think the Kearney game against the ospreys deserves serious plaudits.

I think reducing Trimble's play to his tries is a serious underestimation of his game. He was excellent at putting his opposing wingers under pressure under the high ball, winning a couple back, excellent in defence, shepherding a couple of players into touch and stopping momentum a couple of times with big hits. His work for Scholes' non-try was typically excellent. At least one turnover came from him refusing to say die at a French ruck - he just kept heaving, and when a couple of Ulster boys caught up and joined him, the ball was ours.

I do appreciate the proper analysis in your post, though.

irishbucsfan

I'd have Trimble every day of the week but Kearney's work off the ball is just as good IMO. I'd like to see Dave turn into Leinster's Trimble (permanently on the right wing please).

kuang1

I'd love to see Trimble start.

I'd love to see Henshaw at full back.

I'd love to see a Mcclosky/Fitz centre pairing.

I'd love for all of the above to become reality.

(I'd settle for 2 out of 3! But I think the Trimble wish is the one that's got most chance.)

Buer

Deleted User wrote: »

Start Stander and Payne if they're the best options or start Heaslip and Kearney if they are.

Why you would use the 6N to try and teach some kind of lesson to two professional players is beyond me.

Two Lions tours each, both have captained their province and one has captained his country on multiple occasions.

Obviously, there are question marks over their professionalism and ability to maintain focus.

Buer

What I think we could be looking at: McGrath, Best, Ross, Toner, McCarthy, Ruddock, SOB, Heaslip, Murray, Sexton, Earls, McCloskey, Henshaw, Trimble, Kearney

Strauss, Healy, Furlong, Ryan, Stander, Reddan, Madigan, Fitzgerald

What I'd like to look at:

McGrath, Best, Furlong, Toner, McCarthy, Stander, SOB, Heaslip, Murray, Sexton, Earls, McCloskey, Ringrose, Trimble, Henshaw

Cronin, Cronin, Moore, O'Connor/Ryan, Ruddock, McGrath, Jackson, Fitzgerald

errlloyd

Buer wrote: »

What I think we could be looking at: McGrath, Best, Ross, Toner, McCarthy, Ruddock, SOB, Heaslip, Murray, Sexton, Earls, McCloskey, Henshaw, Trimble, Kearney

Strauss, Healy, Furlong, Ryan, Stander, Reddan, Madigan, Fitzgerald

What I'd like to look at:

McGrath, Best, Furlong, Toner, McCarthy, Stander, SOB, Heaslip, Murray, Sexton, Earls, McCloskey, Ringrose, Trimble, Henshaw

Cronin, Cronin, Moore, O'Connor/Ryan, Ruddock, McGrath, Jackson, Fitzgerald

Yeah your dream team is pretty much the exact same as mine

The Rape of Lucretia

Buer wrote: »

What I think we could be looking at: McGrath, Best, Ross, Toner, McCarthy, Ruddock, SOB, Heaslip, Murray, Sexton, Earls, McCloskey, Henshaw, Trimble, Kearney

Strauss, Healy, Furlong, Ryan, Stander, Reddan, Madigan, Fitzgerald

What I'd like to look at:

McGrath, Best, Furlong, Toner, McCarthy, Stander, SOB, Heaslip, Murray, Sexton, Earls, McCloskey, Ringrose, Trimble, Henshaw

Cronin, Cronin, Moore, O'Connor/Ryan, Ruddock, McGrath, Jackson, Fitzgerald

Like to look at, as in, know the outcome of that experiment without the result having any consequence, or do you mean if you were Joe and your job, income, and coaching future could be influenced by it, you would pick that 15 against Wales in the opening game of this year's 6N ?

Would really go with Earls, McCloskey, Ringrose ?

phog

Deleted User wrote: »

Start Stander and Payne if they're the best options or start Heaslip and Kearney if they are.

Why you would use the 6N to try and teach some kind of lesson to two professional players is beyond me.

Deleted User wrote: »

I think we need to shake things up at tight head this year. Would like to see how Furlong fairs and think Ross should probably act more as backup to who ever emerges.

You were saying?

Tox56

phog wrote: »

You were saying?

How is that at all comparable? Ross isn't the best man for the job as starting tighthead anymore whereas Heaslip and Kearney are in their positions, accepting that fact (assuming you accept it, if you're dropping them because they're not the best option that's a completely different argument) but dropping them anyway in a six nations game for the sake of kicking them up the arse is ridiculous and completely different to the tighthead situation

stephen_n

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

If you actually read what I posted, you'd see I've already said. But I suppose time reading other people's replies is less time composing posts self-consciously using terms like "confirmation bias".

If you notice the post I'm replying to is two pages back, I only saw your more recent replies after I had posted. Trimble for my money should be ahead of Kearney as he's a better winger but in terms of form DK is currently probably the most in form of our wingers. Given that there's a strong chance Luke may start at 12 in the absence of Henshaw against Wales, as McCloskey has had pretty much no exposure to Joe or Ireland's systems. On past selections it's unlikely McCloskey will start. This means the three wingers in the shake up are Earls, Trimble and Kearney, Zebos form should have him out of contention. It's a strong possibility out of those three Earls will bench due to far greater versatility. This would mean DK starts. Even if Earls starts DK will bench, so there is no reason to assume DK shouldn't be in the 23 or even starting. Given injuries and form at this time!

phog

phog wrote: »

You were saying?

I'm suggesting relegating Ross as he is close to retirement, injured and probably won't be in the reckoning next year at all.

This in no way compares to the sentiment in your post.

Teferi

phog wrote: »

You were saying?

You are being deliberately obtuse here and you know it. In absolutely no way are those two things comparable. Embarrassing.

shuffol

I'd love to see McCloskey start but I think Henshaw and Paynes defensive work will see them get the nod against Wales.

.ak

How did Payne get on yesterday?

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

.ak wrote: »

How did Payne get on yesterday?

Not sure how he played but he was on for 71 minutes which is a good sign in itself.

errlloyd

.ak wrote: »

How did Payne get on yesterday?

He mixed the good with the bad. His grubber for the ulster try was sumptuous, a real indication of what he can do.

But he threw one or two poor passes into touch, or just way too high.

b.gud

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I would say Henshaw to FB is the way to go but if he moves to Leinster he's probably going to be playing in the centre, perhaps occasionally at FB if Rob K needs a break. In terms of the Irish team he'd be better staying at Connacht and playing FB regularly. They seem happy enough with the centres they'be been using in his absence.
Between the Provinces we're overrun with centres at the moment. A recognisable international FB other than Rob K is what we're missing.

Connacht being happy to play him at FB isn't entirety true. This season he's played 3 game for Connacht. The first was against Treviso where he played full back. The indications are that he asked to be played their because he just came back from the rwc which had been quite physical so he wanted to be a bit of a break. The next game was against Briev where he played at 13. The next game was against Munster where he played 15. If Dani Poolman had been fit I am 100% confident that he would have been playing 13. With Poolman unavailable moving Henshaw to 15 made sense as it allowed us to get all our best players on the field which is essential for an interpro. If all our backs are fit and firing I don't think we'd see Henshaw anywhere other than 13

I personally think that Henshaw is good at fb but his best position is still in the centre

phog

Teferi wrote: »

You are being deliberately obtuse here and you know it. In absolutely no way are those two things comparable. Embarrassing.

I'm suggesting changing it up, Venjur was suggesting change but argued at the same time the 6Ns is not the time to try change.

I've no idea who you think is embarrassed by this but one thing is sure I'm not.

phog

Tox56 wrote: »

How is that at all comparable? Ross isn't the best man for the job as starting tighthead anymore whereas Heaslip and Kearney are in their positions, accepting that fact (assuming you accept it, if you're dropping them because they're not the best option that's a completely different argument) but dropping them anyway in a six nations game for the sake of kicking them up the arse is ridiculous and completely different to the tighthead situation

I'm not getting into a pissing contest and I don't really care who starts between the players I mentioned but if Heaslip and Rob had to compete for their place a bit more often I think it's reasonable to think they'd improve their game which can only be good for Ireland.

bilston

errlloyd wrote: »

He mixed the good with the bad. His grubber for the ulster try was sumptuous, a real indication of what he can do.

But he threw one or two poor passes into touch, or just way too high.

Yeah, a bit rusty but still some moments of class. But of course he was playing FB rather than centre. McCloskey, like the Ulster backs in general was starved of the ball but when he did get it was a threat and obviously made a great break for Marshall's try. He has got to be close to the team. He certainly can't do anything else on the pitch.

With regards to McCloskey, I'd say the truth is Schmidt himself doesn't even know if he will pick him for Wales yet. He will wait and see how he fares in training. If he goes well then has every chance of starting, if he takes a while to adapt to Schmidt's thinking he will have to bide his time.

molloyjh

phog wrote: »

I'm suggesting changing it up, Venjur was suggesting change but argued at the same time the 6Ns is not the time to try change.

I've no idea who you think is embarrassed by this but one thing is sure I'm not.

Phog come on, you know this isn't true. You suggested dropping 2 players to teach them a bit of a lesson. Venjur suggested dropping a guy who is no longer the clear front runner and at the end of his career. The two are in no way comparable. They just aren't.

Now if your post misrepresented your point then fine, say so. But you simply can't compare the two posts in any way.