Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

WarZ

O.K as of today at 07:40am I think I am finally over the World Cup exit.

There will be no more negative posts as I try to move from the horrors of 2003, 2007, 2011 and 2015

pickarooney

CatFromHue wrote: »

Anyway the RWC is not the be all and end all of rugby.

Ah here, that's just loser talk. Hire could anyone really prefer a grand slam over a world cup?

WarZ

WarZ wrote: »

The WC is the be all and end all and we were humiliated in 2015.

Unless an Irish team ever actually manages to achieve a SF or Final then they will always be overrated sportsmen IMO. They look good compared to the mediocre current 6N teams and occasionally with a touring SH side.

When it comes to games that matters, or when playing the SH side away its a different matter.

We are not a team of superstars, we are a team of average players, overhyped by the media and from a limited playing pool that play below or at the very best on par with their ability.

At provincial level, we WERE good, when our teams were one of the few teams stacked fully with internationals but now that has even changed.

I don't like reading your posts first thing in the morning

shuffol

Why sacrifice 4 years of a championship we've only won a handful of times for a competition we've never even made a semi final of. No matter how much we prioritise the WC we're still going to go in as serious underdogs.

shuffol

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't like reading your posts first thing in the morning

It's always morning somewhere

1eg0a3xv7b82of

2 points.
Neil Francis, a man who knows more about rugby than all posters here combined, has stated that Ruddock should start at lock.great minds think alike.

Ringrose not being included is a bad decision, another one from Schmidt, who seems to making more and more conservative decisions the longer he is in the job.

Eponymous

awec wrote: »

Leinster fans are mexicans.

We're Mexicans, not Mexican'ts.

¡OLÉ!

irishbucsfan

Leandro Round Billboard wrote: »

Neil Francis, a man who knows more about rugby than all posters here combined, has stated that Ruddock should start at lock.great minds think alike.

When you find yourself agreeing with Neil Francis on anything it's time to take a step back from everything, perhaps sequester yourself away to some remote island, and re-evaluate everything you think you know about everything

Yeah_Right

Leandro Round Billboard wrote: »

Neil Francis, a man who knows more about rugby than all posters here combined,

Thanks. I appreciate a good joke to start the day but it did cause me to spray coffee all over the screen.

molloyjh

Leandro Round Billboard wrote: »

2 points.
Neil Francis, a man who knows more about rugby than all posters here combined, has stated that Ruddock should start at lock.great minds think alike.

Ringrose not being included is a bad decision, another one from Schmidt, who seems to making more and more conservative decisions the longer he is in the job.

Neil Francis!? I'm not sure there are enough laughing gifs on the internet for that one. But here's one for illustrative purposes.

molloyjh

WarZ wrote: »

The WC is the be all and end all and we were humiliated in 2015.

Unless an Irish team ever actually manages to achieve a SF or Final then they will always be overrated sportsmen IMO. They look good compared to the mediocre current 6N teams and occasionally with a touring SH side.

When it comes to games that matters, or when playing the SH side away its a different matter.

We are not a team of superstars, we are a team of average players, overhyped by the media and from a limited playing pool that below below or at the very best on par with their ability.

At club level, we WERE good, when our teams were one of the few teams stacked fully with internationals but now that has even changed.

This is just boring now. I thought you'd stopped, but it's clear now you never will. And yes I saw your other post. I still don't believe it.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Leandro Round Billboard wrote: »

Ringrose not being included is a bad decision, another one from Schmidt, who seems to making more and more conservative decisions the longer he is in the job.

Not selecting a player who has 8 full senior caps to his name is conservative?
I think people got extremely carried away with this. Yes he's a good player but there is no way on earth he was getting near an Irish starting 15 or even a match day 23 this year. It just doesn't make any sense to sacrifice any of the other players for him at this point.

molloyjh

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Not selecting a player who has 8 full senior caps to his name is conservative?
I think people got extremely carried away with this. Yes he's a good player but there is no way on earth he was getting near an Irish starting 15 or even a match day 23 this year. It just doesn't make any sense to sacrifice any of the other players for him at this point.

Ringrose himself is much better off racking up game time at the moment that anything else. And that will happen more at Leinster at a level that will allow him to continue build his performances and confidence. It was the correct call.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

molloyjh wrote: »

Ringrose himself is much better off racking up game time at the moment that anything else. And that will happen more at Leinster at a level that will allow him to continue build his performances and confidence. It was the correct call.

Exactly.

I notice also that O'Driscoll doesn't offer any suggestions as to who should be left out of the squad to allow Ringrose in. No doubt it's McCloskey.

former total

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Exactly.

I notice also that O'Driscoll doesn't offer any suggestions as to who should be left out of the squad to allow Ringrose in. No doubt it's McCloskey.

Nah, I'd say Brian O'Driscoll knows enough about rugby to realise that McCloskey is a 12 and Ringrose is a 13.

Seriously, people.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

former total wrote: »

Nah, I'd say Brian O'Driscoll knows enough about rugby to realise that McCloskey is a 12 and Ringrose is a 13.

Seriously, people.

Does their position matter when you're talking about selecting the wider squad and players who may not even get into match day 23's? No. I don't think it does.

I didn't ask who O'Driscoll wanted to leave out of the 13 position in favour of Ringrose, that's obviously Payne who is the first choice 13 at the moment.

irishbucsfan

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Exactly.

I notice also that O'Driscoll doesn't offer any suggestions as to who should be left out of the squad to allow Ringrose in. No doubt it's McCloskey.

Don't see why anyone would need to be left out

MJohnston

Are we really talking about Schmidt being too conservative? Absolute nonsense imo, he brought in 4 very exciting completely new faces, and said that he wanted some others to more game time with their provinces for more development.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Don't see why anyone would need to be left out

Is there not a limit to how many players are in the squad?

MJohnston

irishbucsfan wrote:

Don't see why anyone would need to be left out

Surely it's simple - include too many players and you have a bunch with zero chance of game time who could instead be gaining experience at their provinces/clubs.

irishbucsfan

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Is there not a limit to how many players are in the squad?

No

irishbucsfan

MJohnston wrote: »

Surely it's simple - include too many players and you have a bunch with zero chance of game time who could instead be gaining experience at their provinces/clubs.

Well actually these guys on the fringes like Van Der Flier, Marmion, Dillane would be released back to provinces to play during the competition

MJohnston

Then maybe it's about ineffectiveness of training when a squad grows beyond a certain size - I reckon too big of a squad and you'd be in danger of having too many people to look after.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

irishbucsfan wrote: »

No

Fine but as the post above you points out surely there is a logical limit on numbers. I know fringe players can be released to play for their clubs during the tournament but if you have too many players that aren't in the plans for match day 23 then what's the point in having them in the squad?
Most people who are annoyed about Ringrose don't seem to be talking about him just being in the squad, they want him involved in matches, which would mean, in my opinion, someone being left out, either of the 23 or wider squad, or both.

BOD certainly wanted him in the match day squad, starting even, so that's definitely talking about leaving someone out of somewhere.

Sangre

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Well actually these guys on the fringes like Van Der Flier, Marmion, Dillane would be released back to provinces to play during the competition

My recollection though is that these players wouldn't typically start; presumably because they haven't been training with the team all week. In other words, if you're a fringe player you'll get more actual game time by not being in Ireland squad.

irishbucsfan

MJohnston wrote: »

Then maybe it's about ineffectiveness of training when a squad grows beyond a certain size - I reckon too big of a squad and you'd be in danger of having too many people to look after.

Yes, certainly, but there's no hard limit. Sometimes the squad is bigger, sometimes it's smaller. It just depends on how much value you can get out of bringing a guy in versus leaving him at his province.

It's not a case of player X v player Y for these fringe selections.

It also wouldn't be hugely surprising if he ended up going out to Carton House for a few days without them making any announcement about it

former total

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Does their position matter when you're talking about selecting the wider squad and players who may not even get into match day 23's? No. I don't think it does.

I didn't ask who O'Driscoll wanted to leave out of the 13 position in favour of Ringrose, that's obviously Payne who is the first choice 13 at the moment.

Maybe I'm misreading this. I must be.

You're not suggesting that BOD wants Joe to drop Payne and put Ringrose in the starting team. Are you?

irishbucsfan

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

BOD certainly wanted him in the match day squad, starting even, so that's definitely talking about leaving someone out of somewhere.

No, there's nothing certain about that at all.

It's amazing how these things grow legs on their own and then people convince themselves they're true.

O'Driscoll sent a tweet, of all things, saying that Ireland "could do worse" than playing Ringrose. He did not say he should start. He didn't even say he should play. Suddenly everyone is saying that O'Driscoll is calling for his inclusion.

Now he's just said it's a shame that Ringrose isn't in the squad. That doesn't mean he thinks its a mistake. It also doesn't mean he thinks Ringrose should start either.

molloyjh

former total wrote: »

Maybe I'm misreading this. I must be.

You're not suggesting that BOD wants Joe to drop Payne and put Ringrose in the starting team. Are you?

Well he did suggest Ringrose should start against Wales on Twitter in fairness.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

former total wrote: »

Maybe I'm misreading this. I must be.

You're not suggesting that BOD wants Joe to drop Payne and put Ringrose in the starting team. Are you?

You are misreading it and I think wilfully so. BOD suggested the idea of Ringrose starting against Wales. How does that happen if Payne is there?

I didn't say BOD wants Joe to get rid of Payne.

You brought up the 12/13 issue. Not me. If you're talking about who Ringrose replaces at 13 in a match day squad it's Payne.

I was talking about as part of the wider squad who gets left out for Ringrose. Other posters have since pointed out that nobody needs to be left out but just go ahead and ignore that part of the conversation.

MJohnston

Why are we talking about BOD's thoughts anyway - the man records his videos in portrait mode (http://www.brianodriscoll.com/ireland-captain/) so therefore his opinions are instantly invalid.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Also, just to be clear. The reason I suggested BOD would leave McCloskey out is because when someone on twitter suggested if McCloskey was at Leinster BOD would give him the credit he deserves to which BOD replied if McCloskey was at Leinster he'd struggle to get game time, especially once Henshaw arrives. Tongue in cheek perhaps but it seems clear he doesn't rate McCloskey as highly as he does the other centres, certainly the Leinster ones.

Neil3030

There's a time and place to give youth a chance* and it's not the Six Nations. Ringrose will get his first cap this Summer.

*I mean for its own sake. If a young lad is clearly outplaying the incumbent, that's a different matter.

molloyjh

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Also, just to be clear. The reason I suggested BOD would leave McCloskey out is because when someone on twitter suggested if McCloskey was at Leinster BOD would give him the credit he deserves to which BOD replied if McCloskey was at Leinster he'd struggle to get game time, especially once Henshaw arrives. Tongue in cheek perhaps but it seems clear he doesn't rate McCloskey as highly as he does the other centres, certainly the Leinster ones.

In fact Drico said that other than Payne none of the Ulster centres were "of that standard". Now you could read "that standard" to mean international standard or Ringrose standard. Either way he clearly doesn't rate the Ulster options as highly outside of Payne. And maybe Olding who he thinks will "push hard" if he can stay fit.

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

In fact Drico said that other than Payne none of the Ulster centres were "of that standard". Now you could read "that standard" to mean international standard or Ringrose standard. Either way he clearly doesn't rate the Ulster options as highly outside of Payne. And maybe Olding who he thinks will "push hard" if he can stay fit.

Last time I heard him talk about McCloskey on television he was very positive and talking about how Schmidt would be very interested in him, so I don't really think that's true.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

O'Driscoll sent a tweet, of all things, saying that Ireland "could do worse" than playing Ringrose. He did not say he should start. He didn't even say he should play.

Being ultra-pedantic about you are of course technically correct. However I think most people would read that tweet as Drico saying he would favour Ringrose starting, and the reality is that they'd probably be interpreting the tweet correctly. Twitter is hardly word of law where every word is measured and considered to ensure there is no room for interpretation. And I think if you're falling back on deconstructing the precise language used in a tweet you're probably going a step too far.

former total

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Last time I heard him talk about McCloskey on television he was very positive and talking about how Schmidt would be very interested in him, so I don't really think that's true.

And he was absolutely gushing in his praise of Payne during the world cup.

A lot of people seeing things that aren't there.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

former total wrote: »

And he was absolutely gushing in his praise of Payne during the world cup.

A lot of people seeing things that aren't there.

Or ignoring what is there. For example the post clearly stating that outside of Payne he doesn't rate Ulster's centres as highly. This is true for BOD and arguably Schmidt too. Lots of centre options from Ulster and he chooses a FB from them to play centre. Cave occasionally gets to come along to hold tackle bags. Rightly or wrongly it's hard to argue with the fact that Schmidt certainly seems to favour the centre options at the other provinces higher than the Ulster ones.

And that's not me accusing him of provincial favouritism either. It's just a fact.

A lot of what BOD says suggests the same opinion.

former total

molloyjh wrote: »

Being ultra-pedantic about you are of course technically correct. However I think most people would read that tweet as Drico saying he would favour Ringrose starting, and the reality is that they'd probably be interpreting the tweet correctly. Twitter is hardly word of law where every word is measured and considered to ensure there is no room for interpretation. And I think if you're falling back on deconstructing the precise language used in a tweet you're probably going a step too far.

Agreed, but what's happening here is that people are seizing upon the imprecise language and putting their own meaning on it, to suit their own perspective.

What did BOD actually say about the squad? "Shame no Garry Ringrose". Four words. So far this morning, that's been taken to mean that McCloskey shouldn't be in the squad at all and Payne shouldn't be starting and that O'Driscoll is massively biased in favour of Leinster players.

Seems reasonable...

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

Being ultra-pedantic about you are of course technically correct. However I think most people would read that tweet as Drico saying he would favour Ringrose starting, and the reality is that they'd probably be interpreting the tweet correctly. Twitter is hardly word of law where every word is measured and considered to ensure there is no room for interpretation. And I think if you're falling back on deconstructing the precise language used in a tweet you're probably going a step too far.

No. It's exactly what he said.

He hasn't said that Ringrose should start for Ireland in any form of media. People have taken one tweet and let their minds run off with it. If you're claiming to know that O'Driscoll wants Ringrose to start because he said once that we can do worse than it, then I don't think it's me going a step too far.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Last time I heard him talk about McCloskey on television he was very positive and talking about how Schmidt would be very interested in him, so I don't really think that's true.

Sigh, I know you'd argue with your shadow and I shouldn't do this but....

I simply recounted a series of tweets in that post you quoted so you're basically calling me a liar. So for the record see below. He used the word "class" as opposed to the word "standard" but other than that it's exactly as I said. So it is in fact true.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Also, just to be clear. The reason I suggested BOD would leave McCloskey out is because when someone on twitter suggested if McCloskey was at Leinster BOD would give him the credit he deserves to which BOD replied if McCloskey was at Leinster he'd struggle to get game time, especially once Henshaw arrives. Tongue in cheek perhaps but it seems clear he doesn't rate McCloskey as highly as he does the other centres, certainly the Leinster ones.

Could you please stop adding the provincial bias to this argument. It really adds nothing.

irishbucsfan

former total wrote: »

Agreed, but what's happening here is that people are seizing upon the imprecise language and putting their own meaning on it, to suit their own perspective.

What did BOD actually say about the squad? "Shame no Garry Ringrose". Four words. So far this morning, that's been taken to mean that McCloskey shouldn't be in the squad at all and Payne shouldn't be starting and that O'Driscoll is massively biased in favour of Leinster players.

Seems reasonable...

Actually he did say more than that.

He said he would have Ringrose in the squad intermittently. IE, not a full member of the squad.

https://twitter.com/BrianODriscoll/status/690465825220907008

How on earth could a starting player be an "intermittent" member of the squad? This whole thing is nonsense.

In response to McCloskey being part of the squad? He says it's well deserved

https://twitter.com/BrianODriscoll/status/689825336767438848

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

former total wrote: »

Agreed, but what's happening here is that people are seizing upon the imprecise language and putting their own meaning on it, to suit their own perspective.

What did BOD actually say about the squad? "Shame no Garry Ringrose". Four words. So far this morning, that's been taken to mean that McCloskey shouldn't be in the squad at all and Payne shouldn't be starting and that O'Driscoll is massively biased in favour of Leinster players.

Seems reasonable...

Which is exactly what you have done to most of my posts this morning.

I suggested he would leave McCloskey out because 1) I was under the mistaken impression that there was a limit to numbers and one in meant one out and 2) as I pointed out he doesn't seem to rate McCloskey as highly as the other centre options available for Ireland at the moment.

Neither of those is twisting things or putting my own meaning on it. It's looking at the facts and making an educated guess.

The only reason I mentioned Payne was because you felt the need to point out that McCloskey is a 12 and Ringorse is a 13. In terms of being fringe players in the wider squad their positions are irrelevant. Since you brought it up I suggested the only time that Ringrose being specifically a 13 would be IF he were starting in which case Payne would not be.

You've interpreted that one as me suggesting BOD wants Joe to drop Payne.

I don't know who suggested BOD was biased towards Leinster players? I simply used actual things he said that implied McCloskey would struggle for game time at Leinster which is hard to interpret any other way than he thinks McCloskey isn't as good as Leinster's other options, and Henshaw.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Deleted User wrote: »

Could you please stop adding the provincial bias to this argument. It really adds nothing.

Where did I suggest provincial bias. In fact if you read all the posts you'll see where I stated it wasn't be accusing Schmidt of provincial bias at all. I was using his selections since he took over as fairly hard evidence that he's not a huge fan of any of the Ulster centre options.

I mentioned Leinster in relation to BOD because of what he actually said about Leinster. Not bias, facts.

molloyjh

former total wrote: »

Agreed, but what's happening here is that people are seizing upon the imprecise language and putting their own meaning on it, to suit their own perspective.

What did BOD actually say about the squad? "Shame no Garry Ringrose". Four words. So far this morning, that's been taken to mean that McCloskey shouldn't be in the squad at all and Payne shouldn't be starting and that O'Driscoll is massively biased in favour of Leinster players.

Seems reasonable...

Well that is taking one single tweet and basing the entire discussion on it. But it's a different tweet to the one that raised the initial point. In the original tweet Drico said Ireland could do worse than go with Ringrose against Wales. Now yes technically that doesn't say Ringrose should start against Wales. But it is a tweet that is widely open to interpretation.

However the rational and reasonable interpretation of the tweet is that Drico thinks that Ringrose should start. Technically it means nothing more than he isn't the worst option. But what in Gods name would be the point in tweeting that!? I'm probably not the worst option either.

This isn't about anyone twisting things to their own perspective. My perspective is that Ringrose shouldn't make the squad, that Drico is the best 13 we've ever had (and so knows his stuff in that regard) and that Payne is still our best option at 13. Why would I read that tweet as Drico saying Ringrose should start against Wales? It doesn't suit my perspective at all.

And if you assume that to be what Drico meant then surely Ringrose starting comes at someone elses expense? And surely that is Payne? The rest of the McCloskey and Leinster bias stuff isn't worth talking about.

molloyjh

What I'm getting from all of this is that Dricos tweets are a little bit all over the place tbh.

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

However the rational and reasonable interpretation of the tweet is that Drico thinks that Ringrose should start.

Nope.

The rational and reasonable interpreation of "not the worst" option is not "the best" option. That's where you're wrong here.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

molloyjh wrote: »

What I'm getting from all of this is that Dricos tweets are a little bit all over the place tbh.

And he's very PC when on TV.

former total

molloyjh wrote: »

What I'm getting from all of this is that Dricos tweets are a little bit all over the place tbh.

You're all over the place!

Yeah, it's just the curse of Twitter. Like, that "could do worse" tweet was sent on Dec 27th, i.e. just after Ringrose had performed so well in Thomond, it's a reaction rather than a considered opinion.

Ideally, we should all be discussing article like Gordon D'Arcy's in the Times the other day, where he actually has the time to think and has more than 140 characters to get across what he means.
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/gordon-d-arcy-six-nations-a-step-too-far-for-young-guns-1.2502858

the Darce wrote:

We can’t afford to just throw Garry Ringrose, van der Flier or Ulster centre Stuart McCloskey and promising Munster flanker Jack O’Donoghue into the Test match arena.
I don’t like dampening expectations, but the leap from European club rugby to the Six Nations is a chasm.