Ireland v Argentina build up thread

The second row 60% power thing needs to be qualified a bit.

The front row has a primary role of (prop)ing up the scrum. They are binding the other team and have a physical battle all of their own. In terms of the 1234 PUSH, a lot of that comes from the second row and a bit from the back row but the front row still have to make sure they hold their form and shape.

To put it another way, it's like if you are drilling a screw into a piece of wood, the nail is the front row, you need a hand to steady it and make sure it goes in straight, the force your hands put on the drill to move it forward is kinda like your second row.

In terms of raw forward moving power, the front row wins each and every time, but often because they are doing other things, the actual move forward comes from the row.

Double post

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Yeah, but can he speak Argentinian??

To be fair though if they're just calling numbers it doesn't take a fluent Argentinian speaker to crack the code.

Magico Gonzalez

the untitled user wrote: »

Joke or no, it's a fair point actually, Spanish and Portuguese as spoken in South America is usually quite difficult for Europeans to understand. In a lot of regions they tend to have very thick accents down there and different vocabulary for a lot of every day stuff.

It's like trying to understand someone from the back-arse of Kerry or Donegal.

It's not particularly different, think of Argentine-Uruguayan spanish as involving saying "ye" instead of "you" (vos instead of tu) and pronouncing the double l as a j, not much more to it than that. Unless speaking in heavy slang there isn't much difference, nuances really. Argentine spanish got a bit bent out of shape by the large influx of Italians who arrived at the same time. Some of the slang uses Italian words etc. (As if this wasn't a dry enough explanation, i could add that the spanish prefer to use certain verb tenses which most of Argentina ignores.)

I can get by in Spain, people can get by here. You could say the same about someone from Kerry in NY I suppose. I didn't learn Spanish in Europe, just here. I can understand both varieties.

Also, when catalans speak Spanish it is a lot easier for South Americans to understand than people from Madrid for example as they dont go overboard with the affected lisp (e.g. thhhherrvethhha instead of cerveza). Catalonia and Galicia formed the basis of immigration over here.

TLDR - people understand each other just fine, so long as they dont off into local slang. Same as English really in that respect.

Annnnywaaaay...ZzzZzzzzZzzZZz

Neil3030

Much like if we switch to skoby slang to keep english speaking teams guessing:

"Lob de bleedin yoke to de mead fukker", I venture would be pretty indecipherable...

Neil3030

Much like if we switch to skoby slang to keep english speaking teams guessing:

"Lob de bleedin yoke to de mead fukker", I venture would be pretty indecipherable...

Micky Dolenz

Rugby forum has it all. Jokes, language lessons and a bit of rugby for good measure

Flipper22

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

To be fair though if they're just calling numbers it doesn't take a fluent Argentinian speaker to crack the code.

You'd be surprised at what some lads will say in the heat of a game.

There was a prop when we were in school that had a terrible habit of shouting 'dummy dummy dummy!' when he was going to dummy a lift in the lineout.

The Argentinian coach was on this forum earlier in the week looking for insights and now planet rugby has let them know we have a spanish speaker. Time to close ranks lads.

BoardsMember

So what's the strategy going to be for getting Ryan onto the pitch as an impact sub. I can't imagine Joe wanting to bring either Toner or Henderson off. So will they put Hendo into 6?

That raises questions about where Ruddock comes in, and how you keep Hendo on when Ryan comes in. Heaslip is a banker for 80, so maybe it allows for Jordi and Henry to both be subbed for impact changes.

Of course, the above assumes no injuries, we have a fair bit of flexibility if we get injuries.

marco_polo

BoardsMember wrote: »

So what's the strategy going to be for getting Ryan onto the pitch as an impact sub. I can't imagine Joe wanting to bring either Toner or Henderson off. So will they put Hendo into 6?

That raises questions about where Ruddock comes in, and how you keep Hendo on when Ryan comes in. Heaslip is a banker for 80, so maybe it allows for Jordi and Henry to both be subbed for impact changes.

Of course, the above assumes no injuries, we have a fair bit of flexibility if we get injuries.

Not sure I like the balance of a Ruddock, Henderson Healip backrow, I'd be looking at Toner/Murphy off for the last 20. But JS knows better than me what would be best

Ardillaun

Has any anybody ever tried to figure out how good a scrummager a person is based on how they perform against other scrums?
It would be statistical nightmare from all sorts of angles. I think I remember a match from a few years ago where Henderson's arrival led to a marked deterioration in the Ulster scrum. These days where would he be ranked scrummaging-wise in Ireland? Not to labour the point, but it is an Argentinian strength.

rrpc

PTH2009 wrote: »

This will be the team with Pom and sob in place of white and Ryan that will play in the 6 nations next year.

This game will give the lads a taste of life without Pauline in the team

Pauline???

I'm starting to be concerned as to what kind of surgery they're doing...

Pink Fairy

rrpc wrote: »

Pauline???

I'm starting to be concerned as to what kind of surgery they're doing...

As long as he doesn't get a reality TV show it'll be grand!

BoardsMember

marco_polo wrote: »

Not sure I like the balance of a Ruddock, Henderson Healip backrow, I'd be looking at Toner/Murphy off for the last 20. But JS knows better than me what would be best

Can't see him bringing Toner off, he's calling the lineouts and he's usually good through 80, rarely is subbed

Pink Fairy

BoardsMember wrote: »

Can't see him bringing Toner off, he's calling the lineouts and he's usually good through 80, rarely is subbed

With Ryan on the bench its probably the call that makes most sense

PTH2009

rrpc wrote: »

Pauline???

I'm starting to be concerned as to what kind of surgery they're doing...

Predictive text lol.

Wonder would he look good as Pauline

pickarooney

the untitled user wrote: »

Joke or no, it's a fair point actually, Spanish and Portuguese as spoken in South America is usually quite difficult for Europeans to understand. In a lot of regions they tend to have very thick accents down there and different vocabulary for a lot of every day stuff.

It's like trying to understand someone from the back-arse of Kerry or Donegal.

It's an utterly ludicrous point surely. Speaking fluent English is of zero benefit to a Welshman in figuring out an Australian lineout; how would knowing Spanish help Murphy decrypt the Argentina calls? It's like that story about POC learning Afrikaans. Funny, but completely impossible.

irishbucsfan

pickarooney wrote: »

It's like that story about POC learning Afrikaans. Funny, but completely impossible.

Except when you're learning Afrikaans from the ex-Springboks forwards coach who came up with the calls...

seanman is me

seems to have being quiet unlucky to me. bowes reputation and experience have stood to him and yes he is backing it up.

the two kearneys are serious operators too ...

luke fitzgearld or zebo on the bench? i guess not much between them but i think i would prefer zebo. Would he not be better cover as both a winger and fulback?

then again we need a center too so very difficult.

I just think zebo coming on in the last 20 would be brilliant for Ireland if we use him correctly but alas, looks like he needs a few injuries to get in there.

pickarooney

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Except when you're learning Afrikaans from the ex-Springboks forwards coach who came up with the calls...

As if a top international team didn't change its calls regularly.

irishbucsfan

pickarooney wrote: »

As if a top international team didn't change its calls regularly.

Tell that to Victor Matfield:

"It was a bad day for us," Matfield said after one of the Boks poorest performances to date in the lineouts. Lineouts have always been one of the Boks' strengths.

"After the second lineout we discovered that Gert (Smal) had to have given the Irish some Afrikaans lessons, because they could read the calls. We tried to change things thereafter, which did not work either. In the second half, it went slightly better, but this was the worst lineout contest I have ever had in my life," said Matfield after his team lost 10-15 to Ireland.

Smal had been involved in South African rugby for the last decade before he was snatched up to become Ireland's forwards coach. This has come back to bite the Boks' heels rather unexpectedly.

"Gert knows our lineouts very well, but we thought that we could get away from that with Afrikaans calls," said Matfield.

http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/BoksOnTour/The-Irish-counted-in-Afrikaans-20091129

Christy42

I can see how it would happen. If you feel they won't understand your language it is a quick and easy way to change up your line out calls with no extra strain on the players.

pickarooney

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Tell that to Victor Matfield:


http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/BoksOnTour/The-Irish-counted-in-Afrikaans-20091129

That is... amazingly lazy. To have such basic calls and nor change them after the coach leaves. Baffling.

rrpc

seanman is me wrote: »

seems to have being quiet unlucky to me. bowes reputation and experience have stood to him and yes he is backing it up.

the two kearneys are serious operators too ...

luke fitzgearld or zebo on the bench? i guess not much between them but i think i would prefer zebo. Would he not be better cover as both a winger and fulback?

then again we need a center too so very difficult.

I just think zebo coming on in the last 20 would be brilliant for Ireland if we use him correctly but alas, looks like he needs a few injuries to get in there.

It always seemed to me that there were three players fighting for the 23 shirt: FitzGerald, Earls and Zebo. Fitz and Earls more or less cover the same positions and Zebo covers full back and wing.

With the injury to Payne, one of Earls, Fitz or Cave was going to move up to 13. Since Cave only covers centre, it's a risk putting him on the pitch if the backline has to be rejigged, so Earls won out. That left Zebo and Fitz fighting it out.

FitzGerald obviously shaded it.

aimee1

pickarooney wrote: »

That is... amazingly lazy. To have such basic calls and nor change them after the coach leaves. Baffling.

Tv coverage. You can pick up trigger points and calls through pitchside and ref mic etc. The last few years teams have sent a prop to whisper in the hookers ear what the call is.

Pink Fairy

Whiff of Cordite just tweeted that he would bet on Madigan starting tomorrow

phog

.ak wrote: »

Yeah Ruddock and Ryan will have question marks over them, and won't come onto the pitch unless absolutely necessary .

Why? Well in a way I can understand it about Ruddock as he's just come into camp but I would be shocked if Joe hasn't it in his mind to bring on fresh players in the game. The half backs are generally the only players Joe has held back in games, sometimes only giving them a few minutes at the end.

ongarite

Pink Fairy wrote: »

Whiff of Cordite just tweeted that he would bet on Madigan starting tomorrow

There was a rumour on twitter yesterday that Sexton pulled up in training on Friday.

rrpc

Pink Fairy wrote: »

Whiff of Cordite just tweeted that he would bet on Madigan starting tomorrow

https://twitter.com/WhiffofCordite/status/655317287042424832

Just a hunch he says.

Pink Fairy

rrpc wrote: »

https://twitter.com/WhiffofCordite/status/655317287042424832

Just a hunch he says.

Yeah, but what is he basing that bunch on, he must have heard something?

irishbucsfan

Pink Fairy wrote: »

Yeah, but what is he basing that bunch on, he must have heard something?

Yes, it is written on the internet after all, so surely there must be some justification!

Zzippy

Teams announced and match thread is here folks. No point having 2 open threads for the same game. See ye over there.