Ireland v Argentina build up thread

Flipper22

irishbucsfan wrote: »

But Henderson in the row is still going to contribute to carrying and rucking regardless of who you put in the back row. Don't think Ryan adds a lot more than Murphy there to be honest.

Yeah with the flexibility of Henderson, for me it's simply a question of whether we want Murphy or Ryan on the pitch. Murphy for me.

Do we reckon there's any chance of Ruddock going straight back in? He's played a game or two for Leinster.

irishbucsfan

Flipper22 wrote: »

Yeah with the flexibility of Henderson, for me it's simply a question of whether we want Murphy or Ryan on the pitch. Murphy for me.

Do we reckon there's any chance of Ruddock going straight back in? He's played a game or two for Leinster.

He's played one game for Leinster. I'd be very surprised if he went straight back in after missing all of the buildup and a long stretch before that.

Kermit.de.frog

ionadnapokot wrote: »

SOB 1 wk. on newstalk

Not enough imo. Should be banned for the tournament. No excuse for lashing out like that.

Ciaran-Irl

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Not enough imo. Should be banned for the tournament. No excuse for lashing out like that.

It's up to the mods if they ban you for lashing out like that.

.ak

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Not enough imo. Should be banned for the tournament. No excuse for lashing out like that.

Keep the discussion to the sob thread please.

ulster_Beef

.ak wrote: »

Keep the discussion to the sob thread please.

Im sick of reading about it, sick of hearing about it, sick of seeing articles about... sick of it haha. Theres no escaping it

thebaz

irishbucsfan wrote: »

What actual function on the field do you think we'd be unable to perform well enough with Murphy/Henry/Heaslip?

Murphy is a better all round player, the only issue I'd have is his lack of size/bulk, thats where Ruddock and Ryan have an advantage - tight call whatever way he goes

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

No it isn't.

Lose on Sunday = absolutely terrible result, even without POC, SOB, POM and Sexton.

I think you're underestimating the Argies. They're a good side and will push us hard, even at full strength. If Sexton isn't fully fit for the game I think all the losses could be too much.

They pushed NZ for large parts of that game and led for a chunk of it. That's not to be sniffed at.

Ceadog

thebaz wrote: »

Murphy is a better all round player, the only issue I'd have is his lack of size/bulk, thats where Ruddock and Ryan have an advantage - tight call whatever way he goes

Ruddock is an inch taller and about 3 kilos heavier than Murphy, nothing really in it. Murphy is just deceptively small looking for some reason.

The Pheasant2

Would be very surprised if we see anything other than

Toner Hendo
Jordi Heaslip Henry

with Ryan and Ruddock on the bench.

Starting Ryan to play Hendo at 6 would put Mike Mac on the bench for an RWC quarter final after a couple of days with the squad! (Ruddock will almost certainly bench for the same reason) We know what Schidmt is like - he simply isn't going to take that risk when there's a flanker who can do a fine job in Jordi.
I thought he acquitted himself well in his recent appearances and in this year's 6N he proved he can handle top level knock out rugby, doing a good job of replacing Heaslip against England.

I really wouldn't be worrying on this front anyway!

Tox56

Ceadog wrote: »

Ruddock is an inch taller and about 3 kilos heavier than Murphy, nothing really in it. Murphy is just deceptively small looking for some reason.

http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/images/news/Ruddock-Murphy-Reid-Blackrock-13_rdax_80.jpg

Ok its not a great pic but I'd still say Ruddock is noticeably bigger and more powerful than Murphy is. If he had played a few more games Id have him in there but as it is he probably isnt sharp enough

corny

It won't be a bad thing having fresh lads coming into the team looking to prove themselves. Its obviously not ideal losing influential players but I'd be confident the lads coming in can do the job. Murphy, Henderson and Henry are very capable.

Stheno

Right.

The stars are starting to align here (shush you men)

It's my seventh anniversary with the OH this weekend.
It's a potential first for Ireland to reach a semi.

Therefore, I am now on a mission to get us to the match, have converted the OH (he's a bit of a closet fan still) and we've a plan to get there.

If it happens it will just be OMG, superjalifracispalidousious, I will be haunting the fanzone for Murray/Sinead

Gives me chills just the idea of being there.

Now, I need a bit of luck here lads with tickets, all good thoughts appreciated.

And bear in mind, I'm giving up my usual anniversary gifts of a fancy dinner and nice things for this game (pales in comparison :pac:)

I think my brain might just explode if we get to get there OMG can you imagine it!

gavoreilly

I'm really looking forward to this one!

Zzippy

Stheno wrote: »

Right.

The stars are starting to align here (shush you men)

It's my seventh anniversary with the OH this weekend.
It's a potential first for Ireland to reach a semi.

Therefore, I am now on a mission to get us to the match, have converted the OH (he's a bit of a closet fan still) and we've a plan to get there.

If it happens it will just be OMG, superjalifracispalidousious, I will be haunting the fanzone for Murray/Sinead

Gives me chills just the idea of being there.

Now, I need a bit of luck here lads with tickets, all good thoughts appreciated.

And bear in mind, I'm giving up my usual anniversary gifts of a fancy dinner and nice things for this game (pales in comparison :pac:)

I think my brain might just explode if we get to get there OMG can you imagine it!

If you make it we expect a tv appearance behind Sinead holding one of those signs with "Boards Rugby Mods Are Cool" written on it

Reverand_Misty

In my opinion losing POM and SOB lessens our ball carrying ability quite a bit. By bringing Hendo to 6 he can focus far more on carrying the ball (even consider the extra effort of packing down in 10-15 scrums as well)

Murphy is a very solid, mobile player but just think that backrow lacks the ball carrying ability required.

And surely McCarthy on the bench is still better than Ruddock considering how rusty Ruddock is likely to be (didn't see the his return btw so open to correction)

Additionally one of the key reasons I'd start Murphy would be his breakdown work at 7 but we get that in abundance with Henry

The Pheasant2

Stheno wrote: »

Right.

The stars are starting to align here (shush you men)

It's my seventh anniversary with the OH this weekend.
It's a potential first for Ireland to reach a semi.

Therefore, I am now on a mission to get us to the match, have converted the OH (he's a bit of a closet fan still) and we've a plan to get there.

If it happens it will just be OMG, superjalifracispalidousious, I will be haunting the fanzone for Murray/Sinead

Gives me chills just the idea of being there.

Now, I need a bit of luck here lads with tickets, all good thoughts appreciated.

And bear in mind, I'm giving up my usual anniversary gifts of a fancy dinner and nice things for this game (pales in comparison :pac:)

I think my brain might just explode if we get to get there OMG can you imagine it!

Ah I knew you were a gal! Wondered why a lad would have a username of one of the Gorgons...good luck with the tickets

irishbucsfan

Stheno wrote: »

Right.

The stars are starting to align here (shush you men)

It's my seventh anniversary with the OH this weekend.
It's a potential first for Ireland to reach a semi.

Therefore, I am now on a mission to get us to the match, have converted the OH (he's a bit of a closet fan still) and we've a plan to get there.

If it happens it will just be OMG, superjalifracispalidousious, I will be haunting the fanzone for Murray/Sinead

Gives me chills just the idea of being there.

Now, I need a bit of luck here lads with tickets, all good thoughts appreciated.

And bear in mind, I'm giving up my usual anniversary gifts of a fancy dinner and nice things for this game (pales in comparison :pac:)

I think my brain might just explode if we get to get there OMG can you imagine it!

Keep us updated on how you're doing with tickets. If you end up being 1 ticket short I myself have a job that sometimes means I get pulled away on weekends so you never know!

EDIT: Also, definitely worth going to Cardiff with or without tickets!

Stheno

Zzippy wrote: »

If you make it we expect a tv appearance behind Sinead holding one of those signs with "Boards Rugby Mods Are Cool" written on it

Ah shure that's a given

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Keep us updated on how you're doing with tickets. If you end up being 1 ticket short I myself have a job that sometimes means I get pulled away on weekends so you never know!

EDIT: Also, definitely worth going to Cardiff with or without tickets!

Wowow incredibly generous of you, thank you!

I think for me at the moment it's building on the OH getting to love rugby and he was thinking of all the hassle, then I didi the bit of bribery but how much he'd love it (he'd be the sort you'd always here about when he was there if we won!), but god, I've followed so many crunch games on tv, and in 2009 when Ireland won on RADIO as it was on his birthday and heard us win via radio.

He genuinely loves going to live games but hasn't thought about what that involves apart from getting a dart and driving home, if we get tickets now for next weekend it will be lovely

thebaz

Thornley , who's usually right , saying Ryan will get the nod -

looks like

Heaslip
Henry
Henderson
Ryan
Toner
Ross
Best
Healy

Kermit.de.frog

Stheno wrote: »

The stars are starting to align here (shush you men)

The Irish soccer team said the same thing last week

shuffol

Starting Henderson at 6 and having both Ruddock and Murphy on the bench could be an option.

I think we'll need the extra ball carrier in the backrow with SOB out, particularly if McGrath comes in for Healy.

crybaby

thebaz wrote: »

Thornley , who's usually right , saying Ryan will get the nod -

looks like

Heaslip
Henry
Henderson
Ryan
Toner
Ross
Best
Healy

This looks good to me, Henderson will cause mayhem

wittycynic

thebaz wrote: »

Thornley , who's usually right , saying Ryan will get the nod -

looks like

Heaslip
Henry
Henderson
Ryan
Toner
Ross
Best
Healy

I think this is the best starting pack Ireland can field. A lot of people seem to forget that Ryan is a superb lock and we will lose nothing from having him in the second row. Of course this means that McCarthy comes into the match day squad, but he is an experienced operator and I'm sure he'll fill in ably when required.

bilston

thebaz wrote: »

Thornley , who's usually right , saying Ryan will get the nod -

looks like

Heaslip
Henry
Henderson
Ryan
Toner
Ross
Best
Healy

I would be more than happy with that selection but I would be surprised just because Henderson has played just 20 mins at 6 for Ireland in the last 18 months.

Healy better have a good game if he's going to play more of it than McGrath, who's been better than him in almost every facet of the game in each appearance so far.

Big Healy fan, but he's not hitting heights, and McGrath is.

irishbucsfan

I think it'll all come down to how we intend to play the game against Argentina and also largely what sort of skillset do we think we'll need in the last 20 minutes or so.

I think having Ryan/Ruddock coming onto the field for the last 20-30 minutes could very well be more valuable to us than having McCarthy/Murphy coming on.

irishbucsfan

Deleted User wrote: »

Healy better have a good game if he's going to play more of it than McGrath, who's been better than him in almost every facet of the game in each appearance so far.

Big Healy fan, but he's not hitting heights, and McGrath is.

i agree that McGrath has looked better than Healy.

Someone else said that Healy should start because of his recent injuries. That would make sense in any other position but you can reintroduce a front row player if they've been subbed off in order to keep scrums competitive. So even if we started McGrath and Healy got injured after coming on it wouldn't be the end of the world.

Maybe Healy will step it up again this week though, might just need a run of gametime to build his way back up to his high standards and the coaches may well be hoping that starting him will get him there during the competition.

Watched a good few of Argentina's recent games last night. Couple of things.

We'll need to equal our best performances to date under Joe, maybe even need to find a new gear and to be honest were really going to have to rely on our defense.

Two of their tries against SA were well worked off the set piece. One was a line out within 2 minutes right out of the Joe Schmidt playbook and the other was off the back of an attacking scrum. Their scrum has been solid as you like against tier 1 opposition so we're going to need to look elsewhere for our kickables. SA couldn't dominate their lineout so not sure we will either.

What I can tell they aren't over reliant on the set piece either and more often score from broken play and counter attacks, and to be honest, their handling and rugby skills make them a bit of a worry. Handling in particular is a real strength and they are so good at keeping the ball alive.

Couple of good things for us though:

I'm not sure they are an 80 minute team. They held out SA very well for 80 minutes, but against NZ and Aus they leaked the bulk of their scores in the closing 15 - 20 minutes.

They look quite vulnerable out wide and their positioning is questionable at times from their back 3. Madigan went very well against France, but this to me is a game designed for Mr. Sexton.

Their breakdown work is good but not overly impressive. I think they are a team that will struggle off slow ball and if we combine that with good line speed I'm not sure where their scores are going to come from (though they can kick and drop goal anywhere inside the half way line apparently).

In terms of opposition we are used to playing, I'd say Argentina have good parts of France and Wales to their repertoire and would have similarities to both teams.

In summary - Argentina don't bring anything we haven't faced before in the six nations, but they offer a mix of skills that we often struggle against. They are more rested and have fewer missing players.

I'd say 50:50 is as much as I'd be comfortable calling, but with a dominant crowd and faith in Joe I think we can squeeze this game. If we're ahead at 60 I'd back us to close the game out.

CurryFlavoured

Massive test, probably bigger than the France game. They're going very well and had a rest last weekend. It's set up perfectly for Irish disappointment but I think this group under Schmidt are just a bit different.

lunarhog

D'Arcy once again with an insightful article in the Irish times lays out how we might beat Argentina

lunarhog

lunarhog wrote: »

D'Arcy once again with an insightful article in the Irish times lays out how we might beat Argentina

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/gordon-d-arcy-ireland-can-catch-argentina-in-a-double-bluff-1.2390629

.

D'Arcy wrote:

Henshaw’s performance, in all aspects, was world class.

Annabella1

Donncha Ryan is a real warrior who is hopefully back to his best after his year out from injury
Was heir apparent to POC before Hendo arrived
Love to see him at 2nd row with Hendo at 6

does anyone else feel like this argentina team is very similar to a traditional french team? I'm worried that they have the ability to open up and animate a team with lose ball

Pudsy33

Nylah Enough Suspect wrote: »

does anyone else feel like this argentina team is very similar to a traditional french team? I'm worried that they have the ability to open up and animate a team with lose ball

That's exactly how Darcy described them in his column. It's true, they've look very dangerous with ball in hand but that was against the weaker teams in their pool. I don't think they'll be afforded the space against ireland. If we minimise loose kicking we will be fine.

MJohnston

I think we should be aiming for a very similar game plan to the French match - neutralise their attacking tactics frequently without trying to attack in return too much, rack up a few kicks, keep the score fairly low, and then see if they can be opened up more with 20-30 minutes left to go.

jacothelad

The Pheasant2 wrote: »

Would be very surprised if we see anything other than

Toner Hendo
Jordi Heaslip Henry

with Ryan and Ruddock on the bench.

Starting Ryan to play Hendo at 6 would put Mike Mac on the bench for an RWC quarter final after a couple of days with the squad! (Ruddock will almost certainly bench for the same reason) We know what Schidmt is like - he simply isn't going to take that risk when there's a flanker who can do a fine job in Jordi.
I thought he acquitted himself well in his recent appearances and in this year's 6N he proved he can handle top level knock out rugby, doing a good job of replacing Heaslip against England.

I really wouldn't be worrying on this front anyway!

Surely if Henderson was at 6 and one of the 2r's went off he would move up with Murphy / Ruddock coming off the bench.

If Henderson went off simple change at 6.

If the Hendosaurus Rex starts in the 2r then Ryan is on the bench and Murphy or Ruddock starts at 6.

McCarthy's call up is inexplicable.

aimee1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Watched a good few of Argentina's recent games last night. Couple of things.

We'll need to equal our best performances to date under Joe, maybe even need to find a new gear and to be honest were really going to have to rely on our defense.

Two of their tries against SA were well worked off the set piece. One was a line out within 2 minutes right out of the Joe Schmidt playbook and the other was off the back of an attacking scrum. Their scrum has been solid as you like against tier 1 opposition so we're going to need to look elsewhere for our kickables. SA couldn't dominate their lineout so not sure we will either.

What I can tell they aren't over reliant on the set piece either and more often score from broken play and counter attacks, and to be honest, their handling and rugby skills make them a bit of a worry. Handling in particular is a real strength and they are so good at keeping the ball alive.

Couple of good things for us though:

I'm not sure they are an 80 minute team. They held out SA very well for 80 minutes, but against NZ and Aus they leaked the bulk of their scores in the closing 15 - 20 minutes.

They look quite vulnerable out wide and their positioning is questionable at times from their back 3. Madigan went very well against France, but this to me is a game designed for Mr. Sexton.

Their breakdown work is good but not overly impressive. I think they are a team that will struggle off slow ball and if we combine that with good line speed I'm not sure where their scores are going to come from (though they can kick and drop goal anywhere inside the half way line apparently).

In terms of opposition we are used to playing, I'd say Argentina have good parts of France and Wales to their repertoire and would have similarities to both teams.

In summary - Argentina don't bring anything we haven't faced before in the six nations, but they offer a mix of skills that we often struggle against. They are more rested and have fewer missing players.

I'd say 50:50 is as much as I'd be comfortable calling, but with a dominant crowd and faith in Joe I think we can squeeze this game. If we're ahead at 60 I'd back us to close the game out.

I watched the last 20 of the ireland v aus game from last november last night. We had players going off injured (sexton, kearney) in the last few minutes but the work in defence was as good as it gets. A bit like just before half time on Sunday the patience to just wait for the right ruck to compete and win the turnover, the players were thinking clearly even in the 80th minute. This side is so well coached. Stuart Barnes said it last week, in knock out rugby it is quite often the coaching which defines games.

If we get a performance at the levels of last Sunday i think we will win. We still have a strong pack and most of the players are in good form.

sjb25

Think I'm more nervous about this game than I was for the French one now I'm still hopefull but it's going to be a big test for the lads

aimee1

jacothelad wrote: »

McCarthy's call up is inexplicable.

Why? We lost 2 players from the campaign. Another is suspended. If JS plays to play Henderson at 6 he needs another 2nd row. McCarthy has been in good form for leinster this season.

jacothelad

aimee1 wrote: »

Why? We lost 2 players from the campaign. Another is suspended. If JS plays to play Henderson at 6 he needs another 2nd row. McCarthy has been in good form for leinster this season.

Because he's not very good these days. He had a good season for Leinster a while back and has been pretty mince ever since.

lbj666

Pudsy33 wrote: »

That's exactly how Darcy described them in his column. It's true, they've look very dangerous with ball in hand but that was against the weaker teams in their pool. I don't think they'll be afforded the space against ireland. If we minimise loose kicking we will be fine.

There were moments in the French match where Ireland look stretched and France were hopeless exploiting it, such drop passed, awful timing etc., no invention. Argies won't be like that and there was a vast array of strike plays too.

Like most of said if Ireland beat France the argies would be the tougher game, if they didn't the French would have been.

MJohnston

lbj666 wrote: »

There were moments in the French match where Ireland look stretched and France were hopeless exploiting it, such drop passed, awful timing etc., no invention. Argies won't be like that and there was a vast array of strike plays too.

Like most of said if Ireland beat France the argies would be the tougher game, if they didn't the French would have been.

But I don't think this happened just by accident tbh, I think a lot of that was due to Ireland's defensive pressure.

jacothelad

jacothelad wrote: »

Because he's not very good these days. He had a good season for Leinster a while back and has been pretty mince ever since.

He's played well for Ireland under Joe and has been top drawer so far this season. Kane Douglas was no great shakes last season under MOC either and look at him now. McCarthy was keeping him out of the team.

aimee1

jacothelad wrote: »

Because he's not very good these days. He had a good season for Leinster a while back and has been pretty mince ever since.

Who else so? Tuohy was poor in the warm ups and i haven't seen much of him this season

Clearlier

jacothelad wrote: »

Because he's not very good these days. He had a good season for Leinster a while back and has been pretty mince ever since.

Am not quite sure whether you're suggesting that Ireland should continue a player light or it should have been someone else. If the latter there haven't been any reports of alternatives pulling up trees. If the former - why? At the very least then can be used in training but what if we pick up an injury or two to the second rows and need a replacement, we'll be miles better of having someone who is already in the camp.

irishbucsfan

jacothelad wrote: »

Because he's not very good these days. He had a good season for Leinster a while back and has been pretty mince ever since.

I would agree to a certain extent. Last season he was pretty poor on a lot of days out. That explained him being dropped from the training squad imo.

However he has been very very good for Leinster in the first few games this season and Tuohy was dire for Ireland against Scotland so maybe Joe has taken that into account.

But most importantly:

awec

Deleted User wrote: »

He's played well for Ireland under Joe and has been top drawer so far this season. Kane Douglas was no great shakes last season under MOC either and look at him now. McCarthy was keeping him out of the team.

I'd have kept Kane Douglas out of the Leinster team last season ffs.

McCarthy isn't very good, but there is not really any other option unfortunately. Tuohy rubbish in the warm ups, Foley not familiar enough with the setup.

Noopti

There are a few factors which I feel will be key to this:

1. Millennium Stadium and Fans. This will be another massive "home" game for us, and our players know the Millennium inside out. If the fans can play a big part in creating an intimidating atmosphere for Argentina then that will be worth a huge amount to us.

2. The run in. Yes Argentina have been able to rest some players, but I personally would much rather a battle hardened bunch of vets coming into this off the back of a tough test, rather than having played a couple of non tests and resting players. I can see the argument in favour of players being rested. But this is a RWC quarter final, and I would rather our run into it than Argentina

3. Injuries. Losing POC is of course massive. But with Schmidt building a very good squad and with a team full of leaders it can be absorbed. I would suggest Argentina losing Bosch will have more of an impact. I would worry if we can't start Sexton. Madigan had a great game against France, but I don't want to be relying on him to back that up again in a 1/4 final.

4. Memories of the last world cup. We have heard it said so many times how the 1/4 final loss in the last world cup was the biggest disappointment of many of these players careers. They will not want that to happen again, and they will be very focused on this game. This is an advantage.

Overall, I feel that Argentina had a good half against a slightly stuttering NZ in their first game. In the second half NZ (quite easily in my view) turned the screw and squeezed them out of it. Since then they have had easy games. They look very cohesive and have good players, but against a very organized and battle hardened Irish team I think they have the tougher battle than we do. I would put this more at 60/40 in our favour, especially if Sexton is fit to start.

philstar

Uno my Uno. wrote: »

Argentina are 46 ahead and massively overperforming? Not exactly comforting!

wouldn't read much into it, they were playing sh!t teams (bar NZ)