Rented house burgled, landlords obligations ?

ZENER

Seems difficult to get a straight answer to this from FLAC or PRTB, so maybe someone here has some experience of this.

About 2 weeks ago a house we rent out was broken into and the tenants handbag and iPad were stolen. It happened at about midnight and the tenants were in the property at the time. The Gardai were called and the tenants gave any info required and nobody was physically hurt apart from the shock of finding 2 men in their hallway.

The problem is that the tenants didn't inform us until more than 2 days later, the thieves broke the front door the gain entry and caused damage to the locking mechanism. As the handbag was stolen which had the tenants keys in it they also changed the locks. Had they informed us straight away we'd have replaced the locks ourselves within a couple of hours.

They paid a company nearly 250 euro for the new lock and light repairs to the door and are now looking for us to reimburse them the full amount. Are we obliged to pay them ? The lease states that they should report any problems immediately and we have always been prompt with repairs.

Thanks all.

Ken

dissed doc

If the tenant decided themselves to undertake the repair, without informing you, and in doing so agreed a contract price for a job, they are responsible, in my opinion.

In fact, by not informing you, they have made changes to the property without your permission, break-in or not. It is comparable when someone replaces a washing machine potentially with a cheap model, which breaks, and they they want you to pay for it.

They undertook the contract. Removing the veto-power of the landlord on home repairs or lock changes in unacceptable, as the quality is for the landlord to decide.

You can tell them you did not approve of the changes or the contract. If you inspect it and are unhappy, you are well entitled to get your own repair done to bring it to your standard.

You cannot just go around as a tenant ordering services, agreeing fees on a rental property, on the presumption that an owner or landlord will just pay it retrospectively. Life does not work like that and neither does the law I think!

"I replaced the fridge with a €2000 Smeg. The old Zanussi was broken. Please pay Dixons ASAP. It happened 2 days ago". Ridiculous.

Gatling

So tenants shouldn't secure the property at even it the keys have been taken .

jimmii

If that happened to my tenants I would definitely want them to be changing the locks straight away and not waiting to try get in contact with me first. Obviously with non-essential things contact should be made first but when things are time sensitive then I am happy for them to get it done and contact me when they can leaving it two days is a bit much but nothing can be done about that now. I wouldn't mind it being done this way but I can understand why you would be concerned as long as its not happened before then I would just let them know you want to be informed (or they at least attempt to contact you) even if it is the middle of the night its your house at the end of the day and you should know if anything is being fixed or changes beforehand if they are expecting you to pay for it.

3DataModem

The tenants are totally within their rights and obligations to mitigate their risk (and your risk).

I would ask for a receipt, inspect the installation, and reimburse them fully. I would also ask if their contents insurance might cover the loss of house keys.

And as for the idea that it's "your house", it's more importantly "their home".

Wabbit Ears

All it would have taken is a quick phone call to the landlord so all this talk of their home and mitigating risk is rubbish, they should have called the landlord before agreeing a price and paying money on his behalf.

mel123

Is it the cost you are worried about? €250ish would be the norm there abouts in my experience for a locksmith to come out, new keys and light repairs. I am just wondering why you have an issue?
I assume they did it in the heat of the moment without thinking, not maliciously. If someone had the keys to your front door you need to protect yourself and your property.

cruizer101

I would be of the opinion they should get in contact with you, and fair enough if you can't remedy the problem straight away they can call someone else to fix it, but you should be given the opportunity to fix and to decide on what replacement.

I'd also be looking at insurance, does your insurance cover damages such as break-ins, I would have thought it would.

ZENER

The tenants didn't get the lock replaced until the following afternoon. We could have replaced it that night or first thing the following morning had we been notified and given the opportunity to do so but they didn't call us.

They have now paid their months rent and deducted the 250 euro from it !! From what we know they don't have any contents insurance, there is landlord insurance on the property though but that doesn't cover the tenants own property.

Thanks for the opinions so far guys but if someone has a link to an actual law or regulation on PRTB or Threshold.ie or such like I'd be obliged.

Thanks

Ken

jimmii

ZENER wrote: »

The tenants didn't get the lock replaced until the following afternoon. We could have replaced it that night or first thing the following morning had we been notified and given the opportunity to do so but they didn't call us.

They have now paid their months rent and deducted the 250 euro from it !! From what we know they don't have any contents insurance, there is landlord insurance on the property though but that doesn't cover the tenants own property.

Thanks for the opinions so far guys but if someone has a link to an actual law or regulation on PRTB or Threshold.ie or such like I'd be obliged.

Thanks

Ken

Now that is a very different story! If they were happy to wait then they should 100% have contacted you first and deducting the 250 from the rent paid is completely unacceptable.

Magicmatilda

Not sure there is a law that will cover this exact circumstance. Any law present will be open to legal interpretation.

The lease will usually state that they should inform you of any problems - does it state that?

However I will say this - If the had contacted you first do you feel that you could have resolved the situation for a cheaper price? What are you basing that on? If so get a written quote to demonstrate this and provide them a copy and reimburse them for only the amount on the quote?

April 73

Not paying you the full month's rent & deducting €250 without your agreement means they are in breach of their lease.
If they waited until the next day, then they had time to inform you & ask what you wanted to do. That's what should have happened.
But...by the time you claim this as a taxable expense it'll cost you around €125 & the job has been completed at minimal hassle to you. Yes, it's more expensive then doing the job yourself but when you cost in your time & effort it might be worth it?

Might it be better to ask for the receipt & accept that you're paying for it? Tell the tenants you will never pay for repairs or replacements again without prior consent & you will consider it a breach of contract if they make deductions from their rent without prior consent ever again.

Magicmatilda

Not sure there is a law that will cover this exact circumstance. Any law present will be open to legal interpretation.

The lease will usually state that they should inform you of any problems - does it state that?

However I will say this - If the had contacted you first do you feel that you could have resolved the situation for a cheaper price? What are you basing that on? If so get a written quote to demonstrate this and provide them a copy and reimburse them for only the amount on the quote?

jimmycrackcorm

In the ops position, I would now get a quote for replacing the locks, even if it was actually buying locks in B&Q and installing myself and tell the tenants that that is the amount they're entitled to especially as they should have informed the landlord immediately.

They cannot withhold rent. As they waited until the following afternoon they cannot use an emergency as an excuse.

Tbh this is what insurance for, so shouldn't there be some cover?

ted1

ZENER wrote: »

The tenants didn't get the lock replaced until the following afternoon. We could have replaced it that night or first thing the following morning had we been notified and given the opportunity to do so but they didn't call us.

They have now paid their months rent and deducted the 250 euro from it !! From what we know they don't have any contents insurance, there is landlord insurance on the property though but that doesn't cover the tenants own property.

Thanks for the opinions so far guys but if someone has a link to an actual law or regulation on PRTB or Threshold.ie or such like I'd be obliged.

Thanks

Ken

You need to issue an notice of arrears , they should have contacted you first and should have paid their rent in fulll

Because the tenants paid the bill you can not claim this front our insurance or even deducting it from your tax bill may not be possible

handlemaster

Taking the cost off the rent is against their contract

ZENER

I look after the maintenance of the properties we rent out and have spare locks and keys. When a tenant leaves we replace the locks for security. The lock itself costs about 50 euro. I don't begrudge the contractor for charging what he did, it's his livelihood and he too has to live.

I'm more annoyed with the tenants actions, when ever there's a problem these particular tenants will wait till a weekend night to tell us when the problem has been there since midweek. For example there was a badly blocked toilet with its contents overflowing onto the bathroom floor for 3 days before they called us - on a Saturday night at 11pm! One of the electric showers stopped working and required parts (brushes) but they didn't tell us till Sunday. They told us that it had been giving trouble for over a week.

We'll probably just have to take this one on the chin but let them know that in future they need to inform us straight away - as per their lease - of any issues. It's clearly set out in their lease what they should do in such cases. My phone number is there as a contact too.

Thanks again for the responses.

Ken

dissed doc

mel123 wrote: »

Is it the cost you are worried about? €250ish would be the norm there abouts in my experience for a locksmith to come out, new keys and light repairs. I am just wondering why you have an issue?
I assume they did it in the heat of the moment without thinking, not maliciously. If someone had the keys to your front door you need to protect yourself and your property.

i agree with that though, 250 for repair and news locks and keys, probably emergency call out fee? not unreasonable to cost that much!

Jaketherake

Also you didnt get to pick the quality of the lock or inspect the workmanship.
Get your own guy to replace it with a lock of your choosing and then give them back the one they paid for to go get a refund or whatever they want with it.
Tenants shouldnt be pulling stunts like this. And it was hardly an emergency callout if they waited so long to make the call, even if they got charged for an emergency callout fee.

KCross

ZENER wrote: »

I look after the maintenance of the properties we rent out and have spare locks and keys. When a tenant leaves we replace the locks for security. The lock itself costs about 50 euro. I don't begrudge the contractor for charging what he did, it's his livelihood and he too has to live.

I'm more annoyed with the tenants actions, when ever there's a problem these particular tenants will wait till a weekend night to tell us when the problem has been there since midweek. For example there was a badly blocked toilet with its contents overflowing onto the bathroom floor for 3 days before they called us - on a Saturday night at 11pm! One of the electric showers stopped working and required parts (brushes) but they didn't tell us till Sunday. They told us that it had been giving trouble for over a week.

We'll probably just have to take this one on the chin but let them know that in future they need to inform us straight away - as per their lease - of any issues. It's clearly set out in their lease what they should do in such cases. My phone number is there as a contact too.

Thanks again for the responses.

Ken

They have form of not telling you things. You could have fixed it for 50+time. They are charging you 250. They automatically deducted it from your rent! You are going to take it on the chin. You're an understanding landlord!

delthedriver

These people sound like Trouble .!!!!!


A serious rent increase is needed when the lease is up for negotiation.

runawaybishop

delthedriver wrote: »

These people sound like Trouble .!!!!!


A serious rent increase is needed when the lease is up for negotiation.

Can't do that. You can only increase once a year outside of lease and it needs to be in line with the market rent. Op seems professional about his business, let's let him stay that way.

Op, no you are in no way required to pay and could give notice of arrears if you wanted to. Might potentially bring a lot of hassle though and end up costing your more if they dig in.

Fol20

3DataModem wrote: »

The tenants are totally within their rights and obligations to mitigate their risk (and your risk).

I would ask for a receipt, inspect the installation, and reimburse them fully. I would also ask if their contents insurance might cover the loss of house keys.

And as for the idea that it's "your house", it's more importantly "their home".

Your completely wrong here. It's at the landlords discretion to fix damages to the property. I had a similar issue to this when tenants thought someone had broken into the house and had left the door open( eventually I found out that one of the girls just forgot to close the door). Anyway the minute it happened, they called me about it and I was able to fix it within a few hours. I got the locked changed but again it's up to the landlord to decide this. Not the tenant. A new lock might be a 100quid and the labour evolved is max 15minutes. 250 for this type of work seems a lot. A landlord should be entitled to use his own contractors who he trusts to do work and not some random company the tenants found. The tenants live in the house but it isn't their house. They don't pay for insurance, property tax, can't paint the walls or change any of the furniture or appliances.

April 73

If this had been the first incident, I'd be more inclined to take this one on the chin. Seeing as this is the third time they've messed about over problems in the house and created difficulties, I'd be less inclined to be so understanding.
In fairness to the LL I think he is being very reasonable & they are not perfect tenants.
Issue a letter to them telling them that you need to be notified immediately when there are problems in order to deal with them early & make a decision about appropriate repairs. Tell them that any future deduction from their rent leaves them in breach of their lease & you can issue a notice of arrears. They aren't entitled to make decisions about repairs in the house & then deduct costs with no agreement.

Fol20

They seem to be doing a lot without telling you anything. It should be up to you to reduce the coming rent by 250. Not them doing as they choose. At this point their breaking their lease as they haven't paid for their rent. To resolve the issue, I would go halves with them on the 250 and make it very clear to them that if anything happens again call you first. At least this way both parties are meeting half way and they will learn from their mistakes.

foggy_lad

Gatling wrote: »

So tenants shouldn't secure the property at even it the keys have been taken .

Not when they have been told and it is written into the lease that they contact the landlord before any work or changes are made. they waited till the next afternoon so this was not an emergency!

ZENER wrote: »

The tenants didn't get the lock replaced until the following afternoon. We could have replaced it that night or first thing the following morning had we been notified and given the opportunity to do so but they didn't call us.

They have now paid their months rent and deducted the 250 euro from it !! From what we know they don't have any contents insurance, there is landlord insurance on the property though but that doesn't cover the tenants own property.

Thanks for the opinions so far guys but if someone has a link to an actual law or regulation on PRTB or Threshold.ie or such like I'd be obliged.

Thanks

Ken

Issue a notice of arrears for the rent being left short €250 and if not paid in 14 days proceed to eviction notice.

They were told to contact you if there were any issue and they decided to pay someone €250 for a lock you could have changed for €50, they must pay for that themselves! IF they had called and got no alswer or you were busy that night they would have been justified calling out a locksmith or even help from a neighbour to secure the house but they decided to wait till the next day and get someone.

Do they know the person who fitted the new lock? Maybe there is a scam there with them claiming for stolen items from an insurance policy and getting you to pay €250 for a cheap lock?

Basically they think they can do what they want in your property! you should arrange an inspection to check the property and get them out asap.

Magicmatilda wrote: »

Not sure there is a law that will cover this exact circumstance. Any law present will be open to legal interpretation.

The lease will usually state that they should inform you of any problems - does it state that?

However I will say this - If the had contacted you first do you feel that you could have resolved the situation for a cheaper price? What are you basing that on? If so get a written quote to demonstrate this and provide them a copy and reimburse them for only the amount on the quote?

Most leases also state that the locks can NOT be changed without permission of the landlord.

It does not matter if the landlords time is worth €1000/hour and they would lose money calling out to fix the lock! what matters is they changed the locks without notification or permission.

dissed doc wrote: »

i agree with that though, 250 for repair and news locks and keys, probably emergency call out fee? not unreasonable to cost that much!

Highly unreasonable when the op was prepared to do it for €50.

OP the tenants should be made pay the full rent plus put your own lock in place and let them do whatever they want with the other one! You are not obliged to pay for the locksmith they contracted to work on your property without your permission! What next? will they get landscapers in to dig up the garden and deduct that from the rent?

delthedriver

runawaybishop wrote: »

Can't do that. You can only increase once a year outside of lease and it needs to be in line with the market rent. Op seems professional about his business, let's let him stay that way.

Op, no you are in no way required to pay and could give notice of arrears if you wanted to. Might potentially bring a lot of hassle though and end up costing your more if they dig in.

The landlord is being professional about his business, his tenants unfortunately are not behaving themselves. If landlord is not careful the tail will continue to wag the dog!.

enricoh

A mate of mine had similar problems with a tenant - the boiler broke down and it cost 150 to fix - so here's the rent minus the 150. No receipts, no nothing. After it working two or 3 times he then stopped paying rent and only moved when he moved to a new town.
Read them the riot act and split the 250 if it was me

murphaph

The price charged is ok but the point is the OP is seemingly well set up to deal with this and could have replaced the lock himself for 50 quid. He's now down 200 notes because the tenants failed to do what they are obliged to do and inform him. They are now in arrears to the tune of 250 and I would be issuing notice of arrears immediately. Nip this in the bud OP, or other things will start happening (they sound like rubbish tenants by the way).

delthedriver

murphaph wrote: »

The price charged is ok but the point is the OP is seemingly well set up to deal with this and could have replaced the lock himself for 50 quid. He's now down 200 notes because the tenants failed to do what they are obliged to do and inform him. They are now in arrears to the tune of 250 and I would be issuing notice of arrears immediately. Nip this in the bud OP, or other things will start happening (they sound like rubbish tenants by the way).

What else is going on that the tenants are not telling the landlord about?????


Agree with Murphaph regarding the quality of the tenants. !!!


Time to inspect the property.😊

runawaybishop

delthedriver wrote: »

The landlord is being professional about his business, his tenants unfortunately are not behaving themselves. If landlord is not careful the tail will continue to wag the dog!.

What's that got to do with punitive rent raises that may be illegal?