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ASTI reject Lansdowne Road Agreement.
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SligoBrewer wrote: »Because a union is meant to look out for the most vulnerable members in its ranks.
Yup, we still make a point of asking the junior teachers to join (about 6 at this stage)... but nothing, just brush it off with a laugh. Some have reasonably good PT hours and live at home (and have been around the school longer than a year) so the 'cost' reason can only go so far.0 -
SligoBrewer wrote: »Because a union is meant to look out for the most vulnerable members in its ranks.
They do.0 -
A union is supposed to look after all its members. I want to write to my local TD about my situation and my loss in money and I would expect my union to equally fight for my situation AND everyone else's.0
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My understanding would be that the union campaigns on the issues of greatest importance as deemed by its members. As in they campaign in order of the priorities raised by their members. The young teachers need to join, and attend and promote their agenda.
The notion that teachers should have docked their own pay in solidarity with teachers who weren't graduated yet is a lovely idea but was never going to happen in reality. Human nature is to look after yourself at the heel of the hunt0 -
Lots of comments about NQTs joining and not joining the Unions. Well I am an NQT, I joined my Union, I attend meetings, I speak up about the discrimination I face, I speak up about the hardships of NQTs. However I've been restricted from being more active in the Union because I am an NQT. Here is a copy of a post I sent to Voice for Teachers on Facebook.
I qualified in 2014 so I am one of the many unlucky teachers who are on the lower pay scale, started on point 1 of the scale and receive no allowances. So to try to change this I joined a Union, the ASTI, as I've been constantly told that if I want change I have to get active in the Union. As well as joining I attend meetings and was lucky enough to get elected from my Branch to the CEC. Great I thought, I'm doing exactly as I've been told to do and will get my voice heard. However my nomination had to be withdrawn. The reason for this is I haven't been able to be a member of the ASTI long enough to be allowed on the CEC. So NQTs are told to join a Union and get active in that Union in order to be heard and end the discrimination we are suffering but rules are in place to stop this happening. We, NQTs, need all members of Standing Committees, CECs, General Secretary's, & Presidents of the Unions to speak up for us as we can't, even when we want to, speak up for ourselves in these committees. Without equality and unity can a Union truly be a Union?
So instead of giving out to NQTs how about supporting them in the fight for equality.0 -
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Lots of comments about NQTs joining and not joining the Unions. Well I am an NQT, I joined my Union, I attend meetings, I speak up about the discrimination I face, I speak up about the hardships of NQTs. However I've been restricted from being more active in the Union because I am an NQT. Here is a copy of a post I sent to Voice for Teachers on Facebook.
I qualified in 2014 so I am one of the many unlucky teachers who are on the lower pay scale, started on point 1 of the scale and receive no allowances. So to try to change this I joined a Union, the ASTI, as I've been constantly told that if I want change I have to get active in the Union. As well as joining I attend meetings and was lucky enough to get elected from my Branch to the CEC. Great I thought, I'm doing exactly as I've been told to do and will get my voice heard. However my nomination had to be withdrawn. The reason for this is I haven't been able to be a member of the ASTI long enough to be allowed on the CEC. So NQTs are told to join a Union and get active in that Union in order to be heard and end the discrimination we are suffering but rules are in place to stop this happening. We, NQTs, need all members of Standing Committees, CECs, General Secretary's, & Presidents of the Unions to speak up for us as we can't, even when we want to, speak up for ourselves in these committees. Without equality and unity can a Union truly be a Union?
So instead of giving out to NQTs how about supporting them in the fight for equality.
Mind you, when I qualified first, back in the early eighties, you weren't allowed join the union unless you were a full time teacher. Things have moved on a bit from there, but what you describe is ridiculous.0 -
There's nothing stopping you writing to your local TD, but unless she's the Minister for Education, I'm not sure what you reckon they can do for you.A union is supposed to look after all its members. I want to write to my local TD about my situation and my loss in money and I would expect my union to equally fight for my situation AND everyone else's.
Your union will fight for all its members. It can't fight all battles to the same degree at all times, and since not many younger teachers are members, their issues have not been at the top of the priority list. I take it you're a union member, in which case that's your better bet than writing to a TD. Get in there and fight your corner.0 -
There is numerous groups of teachers out there who have been shafted over time by different agreements. The NQT's are at the bottom of the food chain now but others have also had inferior conditions imposed on them. The pension rights of teachers post 05 are much worse than those who started between 96 and 05.
And pre 96 have a different deal again.
The lesson is that people tend to look after their own interests, it's human nature, and like others have said the teachers who started in the last few years need to make their voice heard on this issue. In my school there are number of them who haven't joined yet will moan about the poor level of pay.
Personally I would give up any pay rise in the next couple of years if the new salary scales were scrapped.
PS I started in 05 so I know what its like to be screwed over.0 -
I appreciate your point but if local TDs are seeing votes disappearing, it creates more pressure than writing to minister. Why would I vote for you when you voted for legislation to cut my pay.....There's nothing stopping you writing to your local TD, but unless she's the Minister for Education, I'm not sure what you reckon they can do for you.
Your union will fight for all its members. It can't fight all battles to the same degree at all times, and since not many younger teachers are members, their issues have not been at the top of the priority list. I take it you're a union member, in which case that's your better bet than writing to a TD. Get in there and fight your corner.0 -
The problem with claiming that the Union are blameless over the situation the NQTs find themselves in, or even that the NQTs are to blame themselves because they failed to engage with the Union, is that it focuses on an incredibly narrow and ultimately self-defeating model of labour organisation. Most Trade Unions that are successful have moved on from that model, because it isn't sustainable.
It's particularly important for workers who are part of a profession, because ultimately when standards change that has effects on the profession as a whole and on the power dynamics within it.
It's very easy to say that the Union can't be blamed for failing to stand up robustly for NQTs, but that doesn't hold much water. For Unions to be sustainable they have to be able to think strategically and work beyond the most immediate and narrow interests of the members. It is obviously not in the interests of well-established teachers to go out on strike over changes to conditions for new entrants to the profession. However by failing to do that we now see a situation in which new entrants not only distrust a union that they see as fundamentally opposed to their own interests, but also are prevented from being able to engage fully with the Union due to fears over their own precarious conditions.
Ultimately it is in the interest of workers to ensure that strategies of divide and conquer are not allowed to manifest themselves successfully in their organisations. The teachers unions, for whatever reason, have failed in that regard. They have allowed conditions within the profession to become two tier (and as some have pointed out, not for the first time). They should fear reaching a breaking point, because it does not take much of a loss of union penetration for the union to lose a significant amount of its power. If NQTs are failing to join, or even just failing to robustly engage with the union, then that is a problem for all teachers, not just NQTs; especially if the Union cannot represent their interests without their involvement. It will become a vicious cycle in which new teachers feel more and more alienated, which results in the union representing them less, which results in further alienation and lack of involvement. The end result will be a union that does not have adequate penetration to project the power of the workers over the profession.
Members of a union do have a responsibility to consider the interests of future members. Indeed, it is in their own self interest to do so.0 -
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However you could argue that the union did the best they could and were taking the long view. It's one hell of a lot easier to argue for equal pay scales now with the economy improving and having a cohort of members on the better scale than it would have been trying to get back the pay if everyone had been slashed. Look at the battle the union are facing into over getting our s and s payment when we have fulfilled our side of the bargain
Lets not forget the state the economy was in at that stage and the sense of doom in the country. The public was against us and the money wasn't there to make the argument. In addition the threats of further pay cuts loomed large. The union did ok under the circumstances depending on your viewpoint0 -
Lots of comments about NQTs joining and not joining the Unions. Well I am an NQT, I joined my Union, I attend meetings, I speak up about the discrimination I face, I speak up about the hardships of NQTs. However I've been restricted from being more active in the Union because I am an NQT. Here is a copy of a post I sent to Voice for Teachers on Facebook.
I qualified in 2014 so I am one of the many unlucky teachers who are on the lower pay scale, started on point 1 of the scale and receive no allowances. So to try to change this I joined a Union, the ASTI, as I've been constantly told that if I want change I have to get active in the Union. As well as joining I attend meetings and was lucky enough to get elected from my Branch to the CEC. Great I thought, I'm doing exactly as I've been told to do and will get my voice heard. However my nomination had to be withdrawn. The reason for this is I haven't been able to be a member of the ASTI long enough to be allowed on the CEC. So NQTs are told to join a Union and get active in that Union in order to be heard and end the discrimination we are suffering but rules are in place to stop this happening. We, NQTs, need all members of Standing Committees, CECs, General Secretary's, & Presidents of the Unions to speak up for us as we can't, even when we want to, speak up for ourselves in these committees. Without equality and unity can a Union truly be a Union?
So instead of giving out to NQTs how about supporting them in the fight for equality.
I read that post on Facebook and kudos to you for attending and going for it-I think that's brilliant. I agree union rules here are ridiculous.
However. You attend meetings. Can you honestly say that you are not a minority among your peers on the new pay scales? Maybe I'm wrong because my evidence is anecdotal but the absolute naivety of the young staff (and some older staff) in my staff room is staggering. The idea that I would use the union to fight for my CID (which I did and got a full 22hrs) was completely alien to them and they ae far more inclined to keep 'hoping' for hours.0 -
mirrorwall14 wrote: »However you could argue that the union did the best they could and were taking the long view. It's one hell of a lot easier to argue for equal pay scales now with the economy improving and having a cohort of members on the better scale than it would have been trying to get back the pay if everyone had been slashed. Look at the battle the union are facing into over getting our s and s payment when we have fulfilled our side of the bargain
Lets not forget the state the economy was in at that stage and the sense of doom in the country. The public was against us and the money wasn't there to make the argument. In addition the threats of further pay cuts loomed large. The union did ok under the circumstances depending on your viewpoint
To be honest, I don't think that's an argument that would hold water for most NQTs. Particularly when they see that the Union pulled out all the stops in combatting Junior Cert Reform, but engaged in the weakest possible manner in protecting their interests.
The problem will really become apparent as recruitment increases over the next few years, and newer teachers return from abroad (primarily the UK). Many will feel that they were exiled by the Union who refused to fight for them but were happy to fight on other issues. They will also have a different perception of what is acceptable in encroachment upon standards and conditions. That can be a very dangerous mixture even for established teachers, and could significantly impact on the ability of the Union to resist further movement of the Irish system towards the English model.0 -
To be honest, I don't think that's an argument that would hold water for most NQTs. Particularly when they see that the Union pulled out all the stops in combatting Junior Cert Reform, but engaged in the weakest possible manner in protecting their interests.
The problem will really become apparent as recruitment increases over the next few years, and newer teachers return from abroad (primarily the UK). Many will feel that they were exiled by the Union who refused to fight for them but were happy to fight on other issues. They will also have a different perception of what is acceptable in encroachment upon standards and conditions. That can be a very dangerous mixture even for established teachers, and could significantly impact on the ability of the Union to resist further movement of the Irish system towards the English model.
You are aware that the payscale cuts applied across the Public service not just teaching? http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056988855
And that the teaching unions are some of the only unions who even bothered voting against it? And that there was a massive financial emergency in the country and that many studies had shown that Irish public servants were overpaid? I'm dead certain that the only reason the government didn't go for every payscale was that a) it would have involved another paycut for themselves and b) whatever hope they had of getting a new entrants cut through by threats, threats wouldn't have worked if they had tried to cut every public servant. Public servants who voted against the deal were threatened with the full weight of FEMPI legislation if they wouldn't accept the deal
You can't compare it to the JC reform which was a totally different kettle of fish in all ways. It was (supposedly) not being introduced to save money so there was no threats of job losses accompanying. There was a lot of data from the UK showing it didn't work and there was at least some hope in hell of stopping it or at least changing the reform. None of that is comparable to cuts during a financial emergency0 -
mirrorwall14 wrote: »You are aware that the payscale cuts applied across the Public service not just teaching? And that the teaching unions are some of the only unions who even bothered voting against it? And that there was a massive financial emergency in the country and that many studies had shown that Irish public servants were overpaid? I'm dead certain that the only reason the government didn't go for every payscale was that a) it would have involved another paycut for themselves and b) whatever hope they had of getting a new entrants cut through by threats, threats wouldn't have worked if they had tried to cut every public servant.
You can't compare it to the JC reform which was a totally different kettle of fish in all ways. It was (supposedly) not being introduced to save money so there was no threats of job losses accompanying. There was a lot of data from the UK showing it didn't work and there was at least some hope in hell of stopping it or at least changing the reform. None of that is comparable to cuts during a financial emergency
You are speaking of what the government felt they would be able to get through in an agreement, and what they would not. The key criterion in what can be stopped by any labour organisation is not the data, the level of funding, or even public support. It is the appetite of its members to strike. That was the key difference between the cuts applied to NQTs and the JCSA reform. In the latter the union had appetite for a strike, in the former it did not.
That is where the problem lies, because NQTs know that just as well as the government did. The union was willing to strike over issues that affected some over issues that affected others. Those others were NQTs. Many of them do, therefore, feel that the Union does not represent their interests (because it didn't), and the excuses don't hold up in the light of the fact that the Union were willing to strike over other issues.
My larger point however is that a massive problem is now potentially brewing for the Teachers unions. Through a lack of strategic foresight on the part of its members it has now allowed a divide and conquer strategy to take root. If it succeeds it can massively diminish union power. We are seeing the beginnings of that, and if there is to be any hope in combating it the Union need to take a lead in restoring the ability of NQTs to place their faith in it by fighting vigorously for their interests; and that has to happen without NQTs being there to drive the effort, sadly.0 -
I would argue completely differently that the unions had no appetite for strike at all and it was only the members pushing it that got the strike on for the JC. And as I said there was no threat of FEMPI hanging over teachers striking for JC unlike the paycuts so I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one rather than go around in circles.
I personally believe the TUI and ASTI will survive this however there seems to be serious issues with the INTO. They are not only out of step with their members but also out of step with their colleagues at second level. TUI are firing shots across the governments bow on NQT pay scales already http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/teachers-union-for-strike-ballot-over-discriminatory-pay-1.23947060 -
In the third level sector the TUI members agreed to bring in the assistant lecturer grade about 1998. This drastically changed the conditions of new entrants. It is a bit disenginous to be concerned about new entrants now.0
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If all the people who wrote to politicians withdrew their vote, nobody'd ever vote...I appreciate your point but if local TDs are seeing votes disappearing, it creates more pressure than writing to minister. Why would I vote for you when you voted for legislation to cut my pay.....
Why don't you write if you think it would have any effect?0 -
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mirrorwall14 wrote: »I read that post on Facebook and kudos to you for attending and going for it-I think that's brilliant. I agree union rules here are ridiculous.
However. You attend meetings. Can you honestly say that you are not a minority among your peers on the new pay scales? Maybe I'm wrong because my evidence is anecdotal but the absolute naivety of the young staff (and some older staff) in my staff room is staggering. The idea that I would use the union to fight for my CID (which I did and got a full 22hrs) was completely alien to them and they ae far more inclined to keep 'hoping' for hours.
There is no real point in me replying to your post as I think Subutai has covered everything I would say in his/her posts already.
However I will say that we, all teachers, need to fight for our profession and our Unions and the only way to do this is together. We should never have let the Government split us and we need to fix inequality now.0 -
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It's short term expense vs. long term expense. A stitch in time and all that.
That's all very well, but when you have a mortgage to pay and kids to put through college, every tenner taken from your pay packet counts. It's kind of hard to sacrifice yourself for the possible future benefit of others as well as yourself when it comes to real life.0 -
It's short term expense vs. long term expense. A stitch in time and all that.
Not really? The posts I read here and on Facebook appear to think that current teachers should have agreed to take a pay cut in solidarity with the NQTs. That's the bit the annoys me, it's a completely pie in the sky notion and we would all have been in the same boat and screwed as opposed to trying to get ye back onto the scales as is. I get the resentment, I get the annoyance but to have the expectation that anyone would take a paycut to give someone else their pay is just ludicrous0 -
mirrorwall14 wrote: »Not really? The posts I read here and on Facebook appear to think that current teachers should have agreed to take a pay cut in solidarity with the NQTs. That's the bit the annoys me, it's a completely pie in the sky notion and we would all have been in the same boat and screwed as opposed to trying to get ye back onto the scales as is. I get the resentment, I get the annoyance but to have the expectation that anyone would take a paycut to give someone else their pay is just ludicrous
That's essentially the foundational idea of trade unions. That through standing together we can protect the more vulnerable among us. If the case in teaching is "I'm alright Jack, pull up the ladder", then one cannot hope to retain a strong sense of solidarity. That sense of solidarity is what's needed if teachers are to retain the powerful position that being organised has provided.
If the shoe was on the other foot and NQTs were passing picket lines I think your tone would be different. NQTs have mortgages too, they have pay packets to worry about. If tomorrow or the next day they pass the picket lines en masse because it's "ludicrous" to expect them to take a paycut to protect the interests of others would you be happy with their view?
Trade Unionism can't work if the fundamental principle is to look after oneself at the expense of the whole. That's diametrically opposed to what Unions are about.0 -
Things like Payscales can be bumped up or down over time and won back (similar to PTR), things like conditions of employment are very difficult to re-instate. So I think the Union took on the long term fight as the more pressing of issues. Consider the issue of the problems with Nurses recruitment.. in just one day 2 weeks ago it was announced that they were going to offer full-time contracts to all those studying to be nurses now!
As we can see, trying to untangle the ******** that is JC, S&S and CP hours is almost impossible now, I would be very surprised that pay rates aren't restored sooner than we think.... whereas we'll still be fighting CP hours and S&S for decades to come.
Actually I think the lunchtime protests was a clever move in that it highlighted who was and wasn't in the union. The rota went up and we could see who was staying in the school. Whereas when it's a 'school closed' scenario the people who aren't in a union aren't as noticeable.
We've seen on many threads here about people who want to know what the story is if they're not in a union (and the general consensus was to get yer application form in!). So I think the strikes have pushed the envelope a bit in terms of trying to get the outsiders to join.
At the time of the vote everyone looked at their payslips and did the math. The vote wasn't as simple as "do you want to cut new entrants payscale or not Y/N?". Maybe if we had a few more NQT's voting then it might have consildated a no! So maybe they pulled the ladder down on themselves.0 -
I was in the ASTI. I left the ASTI when i believed they weren't serving our interests as teachers and this came after the third ballot on the Haddington Road Agreement was run.
In no way was this a free and democratic ballot as it was laden with threats to teachers. I expect the same to happen on a rerun of Lansdowne Road. . . In fact this has already occurred with their threat not to pay S&S if we don't sign up.
When Pat King came back with a fresh PAY CUT for the third ballot then you knew this was all a joke and Kind was nothing other than a highly well paid Government fixer.
My issue with NQTs is this: Why are you taking up the jobs?
Regardless of any union I wouldn't teach in IRL for the paltry pay they're paying NQ teachers . . . NO phucking way.
Look at the situation with the nurses. . . They're not taking up jobs and the Government is scrambling to try and attract them to stay. . . Not the same in teaching.
This is not me letting the unions off the hook - It's a reality that the teaching unions did nothing for members who had been paying them for 20-30 years. . . So why do you expect them to deliver for you before you've even entered the profession?0 -
That's essentially the foundational idea of trade unions. That through standing together we can protect the more vulnerable among us. .
Yes, and that was done as far as possible without compromising the existing conditions. I'm baffled that you would imagine that union members would volunteer for even more pay cuts on top of the ones they had already had, giving the government the excuse to keep the pay of ALL teachers at a low level.0 -
Alex Meier wrote: »I was in the ASTI. I left the ASTI when i believed they weren't serving our interests as teachers and this came after the third ballot on the Haddington Road Agreement was run.
In no way was this a free and democratic ballot as it was laden with threats to
People were free to vote whatever way they wanted. They were free to reject the threats and call the goverment's bluff. Many, including me, did exactly that. But not enough people did. That doesn't negate the free and democratic nature of the vote.
I presume you'll be taking any of the improvements in our pay and conditions that the unions may manage to win back for you?0 -
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People were free to vote whatever way they wanted. They were free to reject the threats and call the goverment's bluff. Many, including me, did exactly that. But not enough people did. That doesn't negate the free and democratic nature of the vote.
I presume you'll be taking any of the improvements in our pay and conditions that the unions may manage to win back for you?
The unions have brought nothing but pay cuts and worse terms and conditions of employment for teachers
Even the unemployed are getting treated better than the public servant0
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