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Extra "free" preschool year

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  • Hosted Moderators Posts: 13,425 ✭✭✭✭Ginny


    Ginny there is no starting in jan 2016. The only start dates in 2016 is sept. Or sept 2015. After that the enrolments are jan 17, April 17 and sept 17

    There's no starting as such but they could finish the portion of the year as if they enrolled in sept, there was a few weeks after the budget in which their names could have been added to the roll.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,919 ✭✭✭dori_dormer


    Yeah I think it was mentioned above that it was oct sometime was the cutoff. But you still had to be the correct age of 3yrs and a few months in sept to start


  • Hosted Moderators Posts: 13,425 ✭✭✭✭Ginny


    Yup exactly what I posted, had to have turned 3 by 30th of June. Basically July 2012 babies are screwed :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,056 ✭✭✭✭neris


    yellow hen wrote: »
    My son would be due to start in September 2016 and although he's currently full-time in the creche, I hadn't formally enrolled him for the ECCE programme yet. I asked about it yesterday and they were fully booked! If he's full-time in the creche he will get a place but if he was part-time (which I had intended to change him to as I'll be on maternity leave) he wouldn't get a place. It's not the most transparent application process.

    how can your child get a place on ecce if hes full time but not part time? that doesnt make sense. The scheme only runs for a few hours a day so it shouldnt make a difference if hes in the creche 5 full days or you change him to 1 half day he should still get 1 day a week of ecce. Can you send him to the creche for the ecce hours on the days he wouldnt be attending creche?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,030 ✭✭✭yellow hen


    neris wrote: »
    how can your child get a place on ecce if hes full time but not part time? that doesnt make sense. The scheme only runs for a few hours a day so it shouldnt make a difference if hes in the creche 5 full days or you change him to 1 half day he should still get 1 day a week of ecce. Can you send him to the creche for the ecce hours on the days he wouldnt be attending creche?

    I presume the creche are reserving the places for those children who will continue on after the ecce hours. It makes sense from a business point of view but it makes it difficult for others to do ecce hours only, which is what I wanted.


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  • Hosted Moderators Posts: 10,661 ✭✭✭✭John Mason


    neris wrote: »
    how can your child get a place on ecce if hes full time but not part time? that doesnt make sense. The scheme only runs for a few hours a day so it shouldnt make a difference if hes in the creche 5 full days or you change him to 1 half day he should still get 1 day a week of ecce. Can you send him to the creche for the ecce hours on the days he wouldnt be attending creche?

    Basically the child goes into a different room for 3 hours, partakes in the activities in that room and then moves back into the original room after the 3 hours.

    The facility will then reduce the full-time fees by €62.50 a week or the pro rated amount.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    neris wrote: »
    how can your child get a place on ecce if hes full time but not part time? that doesnt make sense. The scheme only runs for a few hours a day so it shouldnt make a difference if hes in the creche 5 full days or you change him to 1 half day he should still get 1 day a week of ecce. Can you send him to the creche for the ecce hours on the days he wouldnt be attending creche?

    Because it makes no sense to hire a staff member for 3 hours a day for those limited weeks in the term. They employ same full time staff, and reduce the full time fees by the amount of the ECCE.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,729 ✭✭✭Millem


    So it looks like we won't be bothering with the ecce next year as my guy gets it from April. My options are either stay with his minder who is a Montessori teacher 3ish days and not get ecce or go to a Montessori that does not accept ecce. I have been told ecce is worth roughly €75 per week off my childcare bill :(

    If he say stayed with his minder (which everyone thinks he should)
    Could I sign him up for ecce from 1st April and say only send him 1 day a week for 3 hours but school would still get the ecce? And then send him for the month of June just for ecce hours? This is all based on the school allowing this? The school has a place from sept but can't offer enough additional hours so not really suitable.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    This scheme is way too complex. For parents, and for providers. Children born within two days of eachother are horsed into various entitlement categories. Why on earth could they not make it simple and just double the existing one? It is totally bananas. I'm all for extra benefits, but would they just remember the mantra of Keep It Simple!

    Millem, what you are saying I think fits the notional terms, but none of that matters if the preschool or minder can't facilitate it. They are not required to take children, only offer a discount if they have spaces left. I know some of the creches around here don't offer it at all to part-timers, full time children get the first option of the places, which are quickly filled up.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,948 ✭✭✭Sligo1


    My little girl who is part time in the "crèche" setting will be eligible from next April. They said they will move her to the preschool (separate building in a different area, really nice facility for 2.5 yo up) this November and she can have the ECCE from April. It sounds great tbh. But after she came home with another temp of 39 yesterday I think I just want her out.... Don't think I can hold on till November :(. My son is in a montesorri which we love but they don't do ECCE and we've just been told they have no plans to do it. My girl is 3 weeks too young to go there this Septmeber :(.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,729 ✭✭✭Millem


    pwurple wrote: »
    This scheme is way too complex. For parents, and for providers. Children born within two days of eachother are horsed into various entitlement categories. Why on earth could they not make it simple and just double the existing one? It is totally bananas. I'm all for extra benefits, but would they just remember the mantra of Keep It Simple!

    Millem, what you are saying I think fits the notional terms, but none of that matters if the preschool or minder can't facilitate it. They are not required to take children, only offer a discount if they have spaces left. I know some of the creches around here don't offer it at all to part-timers, full time children get the first option of the places, which are quickly filled up.

    The school in question is brand new. I think she will facilitate it but I was wondering do children have to attend a certain amount before the gov pay the the weekly amounts? The owner has the degree in monte up to 12 so she said she will get higher capitation but would just charge me €75 9-12 per week until ecce. 9-12 is no use to me. I don't care if gov give her full weekly amount even though he only goes a few days :)

    Sligo1 I am ringing the non ecce one on Monday as need to decide this week and pay deposits. I am working out the sums at the mo. Is the aftercare block booked per €16 weeks? Or is it week by week? I think it's 16 weeks. Also is it on the by hour eg 12.30-1.30 or do the charge half hourly?

    I am also worried that he may not be toilet trained by sept :(


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,828 ✭✭✭unklerosco


    I fully agree with anyone that says the setup is over complicated.. It would be far easier to just give every child two years free and track it via their pps number. This is how they track anyway. They've set it up as is so they can save money...

    My wife has two montessori's, both are full for September and both have waiting lists. She has names down for children as far ahead as 2018.. She's only taking full time places so if your child isn't entitled to ECCE till April you have to enroll them for a full time place from September.

    It's not possible to offer part time places or hold places... To hold a place would loose the montessori around €2,000.

    One side effect of this current setup is if your planning your family I would suspect you would want your child born so they can benefit from 2 years of free childcare. I would expect in a few years we may see a peak of births in certain months of the year and a drop on other months..


  • Registered Users Posts: 546 ✭✭✭ja1986


    Hi this is what iv been told about the scheme. My daughter is born on new years eve ,so three on the 31st Dec 2016. I am sending her to part time creche in Sept 2016 for 2 afternoons a week when she will be 2 and 9months and I will have to pay 33 a week. When she turns 3 on Nye ,she will be entitled to the free coming year,and also a following free year. Hope this helps.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,729 ✭✭✭Millem


    unklerosco wrote: »
    I fully agree with anyone that says the setup is over complicated.. It would be far easier to just give every child two years free and track it via their pps number. This is how they track anyway. They've set it up as is so they can save money...

    My wife has two montessori's, both are full for September and both have waiting lists. She has names down for children as far ahead as 2018.. She's only taking full time places so if your child isn't entitled to ECCE till April you have to enroll them for a full time place from September.

    It's not possible to offer part time places or hold places... To hold a place would loose the montessori around €2,000.

    One side effect of this current setup is if your planning your family I would suspect you would want your child born so they can benefit from 2 years of free childcare. I would expect in a few years we may see a peak of births in certain months of the year and a drop on other months..

    The lady from new school is taking less than the ratio you are allowed, so I think she will allow him to join in April. I am just worried if he is a non attender for majority of week she won't get ecce fees? Do they have to send in attendance?

    Jan-March babies are entitled to the most weeks if they go to school at 5 and something rather than 4 and something ;)

    Sligo1 the non ecce place told me this week he had to be 2 years and 6 months by 1st August 2016. So he literally just made it getting in as he was born mid January :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,948 ✭✭✭Sligo1


    Millem wrote: »
    The school in question is brand new. I think she will facilitate it but I was wondering do children have to attend a certain amount before the gov pay the the weekly amounts? The owner has the degree in monte up to 12 so she said she will get higher capitation but would just charge me €75 9-12 per week until ecce. 9-12 is no use to me. I don't care if gov give her full weekly amount even though he only goes a few days :)

    Sligo1 I am ringing the non ecce one on Monday as need to decide this week and pay deposits. I am working out the sums at the mo. Is the aftercare block booked per €16 weeks? Or is it week by week? I think it's 16 weeks. Also is it on the by hour eg 12.30-1.30 or do the charge half hourly?

    I am also worried that he may not be toilet trained by sept :(

    Hi millem, the aftercare is booked twice per year. You need to get in early tho (during the summer) as places book up fast. So the first booking will take you September to January. Then you have to book again from January to June. Again you have to get in early. We couldnt get a place in aftercare from January this year. But that's because they give priority to those that were in it from September (so you should be fine). So yea you have to block book it. It's €6 per house but I think you can pay €3 if it's half an hour but check that out.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,729 ✭✭✭Millem


    Sligo1 wrote: »
    Hi millem, the aftercare is booked twice per year. You need to get in early tho (during the summer) as places book up fast. So the first booking will take you September to January. Then you have to book again from January to June. Again you have to get in early. We couldnt get a place in aftercare from January this year. But that's because they give priority to those that were in it from September (so you should be fine). So yea you have to block book it. It's €6 per house but I think you can pay €3 if it's half an hour but check that out.

    That is great Sligo. I am going to ring back Monday. I need to be guaranteed aftercare :( I know they don't do ecce but when you work it out it is at €3.90 per hour from 8-12.30 which is Cheaper than anywhere I have come across that even offers ecce or a minder! It's secondary school term not primary (so shorter) which is better for me as I don't need additional hours June or Feb mid term. I am just worried he won't be toilet trained also worried that he will be youngest as even Feb babies (unless born 1st Feb) wouldn't get in. He has been sick all week God love him and minder has been fantastic taking him, so worried he will get sick more often in a larger environment. :(
    I am like you, not looking at any crèche montes.
    new monte said she won't mind and would help toilet train if needs be.

    I also need to go into my principal and see if it possibility of an extra early finish :eek::eek: as then new monte school would work from sept ;) I think my chances of him guaranteeing it are fairly slim to none tbh ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,828 ✭✭✭unklerosco


    Millem wrote:
    That is great Sligo. I am going to ring back Monday. I need to be guaranteed aftercare I know they don't do ecce but when you work it out it is at €3.90 per hour from 8-12.30 which is Cheaper than anywhere I have come across that even offers ecce or a minder

    Out of curiosity is this an actual montessori? Have never heard of a montessori/pre school that hasn't registered for the ECCE, the only reason I've ever seen is that they don't have the qualifications to register.. Have they said why they don't do the ECCE scheme? Be interested to hear why...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,948 ✭✭✭Sligo1


    unklerosco wrote: »
    Out of curiosity is this an actual montessori? Have never heard of a montessori/pre school that hasn't registered for the ECCE, the only reason I've ever seen is that they don't have the qualifications to register.. Have they said why they don't do the ECCE scheme? Be interested to hear why...

    They explained it to me at a meeting last week. But I can't articulate it very well. They are a private primary and secondary school with montesorri. They are under the DOE but apparently now from sept have been subsumed under TULSA which they weren't before.

    Millem, because of this they are now restructuring their classes from Sept onwards. So the 2.5 yo will be in the same class as the 3.5 yo. So T and N could be in the same class! Lol. Before this the classes were all separate. They had mornings, morningers and afternooners. N would b a morning in Sept and Tom would have been a morninger in sept and they would've been in separate classes. But now they will have mixed
    Classes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,828 ✭✭✭unklerosco


    Millem wrote:
    I am just worried if he is a non attender for majority of week she won't get ecce fees? Do they have to send in attendance?

    If the school is happy to take your child for three days they can claim the ECCE grant for those three days. You can't change he number of days as you choose, the school can request a change but this is at the discretion of the dcya. I know you'd get away with changing the number of days once or twice a year.. Again, once the school is ok with it.

    They do have to keep attendance records, if a school is found to be claiming for a child five days a week that only attends three days they can loose their ECCE funding..


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,948 ✭✭✭Sligo1


    unklerosco wrote: »
    Out of curiosity is this an actual montessori? Have never heard of a montessori/pre school that hasn't registered for the ECCE, the only reason I've ever seen is that they don't have the qualifications to register.. Have they said why they don't do the ECCE scheme? Be interested to hear why...

    Hi, yea they are registered with DOE. Any teacher teaching in the monte or primary have to have a primary degree. They also have teaching assistants to help out.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,818 ✭✭✭jlm29


    It just seems so complicated! I'm just worried that it will make places in the smaller pre-schools very scarce! I don't think that kids need 2 years of pre-school, and I think the second year would be very boring if they're mixed in with kids who are in their first year. I don't think I'd bother with the second year, and will just send my second boy in sept when he's nearly 5 (start of dec)- except I'm afraid there won't be a place for him, because they will give priority to kiddies who were there the previous year!


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,729 ✭✭✭Millem


    unklerosco wrote: »
    Out of curiosity is this an actual montessori? Have never heard of a montessori/pre school that hasn't registered for the ECCE, the only reason I've ever seen is that they don't have the qualifications to register.. Have they said why they don't do the ECCE scheme? Be interested to hear why...

    I know sligo said they have degrees but I do think the reason why they aren't in ecce is to do with qualifications tbh. The french school this year is taking part in ecce but next year won't be. They said it is do with with qualifications. They have degrees but the either the assistant or teacher didnt have the fetac qualification.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    jlm29 wrote: »
    It just seems so complicated! I'm just worried that it will make places in the smaller pre-schools very scarce! I don't think that kids need 2 years of pre-school, and I think the second year would be very boring if they're mixed in with kids who are in their first year. I don't think I'd bother with the second year, and will just send my second boy in sept when he's nearly 5 (start of dec)- except I'm afraid there won't be a place for him, because they will give priority to kiddies who were there the previous year!
    A good school won't have bored children! There's something lacking if a child is bored in preschool.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,828 ✭✭✭unklerosco


    I don't think that kids need 2 years of pre-school, and I think the second year would be very boring if they're mixed in with kids who are in their first year. I don't think I'd bother with the second year

    With this theory sending your child to primary school for more than a year would be very boring.. All pre-schools availing of the ECCE must now follow an aistear based curriculum. Trust me, 2 years of pre-school is far from boring! I've worked with children from pre-school to 6th years for the past 7 years and I would love to see more of the methods and practices used in pre-schools brought into primary and post primary education...
    lazygal wrote: »
    A good school won't have bored children! There's something lacking if a child is bored in preschool.

    Absolutely, 2 years of Montessori (or similar pedagogy) will give your child the best possible start in education.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,818 ✭✭✭jlm29


    unklerosco wrote: »
    With this theory sending your child to primary school for more than a year would be very boring.. All pre-schools availing of the ECCE must now follow an aistear based curriculum. Trust me, 2 years of pre-school is far from boring! I've worked with children from pre-school to 6th years for the past 7 years and I would love to see more of the methods and practices used in pre-schools brought into primary and post primary education...



    Absolutely, 2 years of Montessori (or similar pedagogy) will give your child the best possible start in education.

    I should have said- my older boy is in a naoinra, and loves it, and I couldn't be happier with how much he's learning. But it's being taught in a very obvious order- started with basics like colours, and has professed gradually since September. I feel that if he went back a second year (not an option given his age), and was mixed in with kids who were only starting, those kids would have to start with the basics, but kids who were in their second year would have covered the basics. 2 years of pre-school is fine, but surely they would need to modify the curriculum to reflect that most kids would be doing 2 years instead of one.


  • Registered Users Posts: 893 ✭✭✭PLL


    I was talking about this new extra year with my daughter's crèche manager. My daughter starts school in September, so it doesn't apply to her - she is currently in Naíonra at the crèche and loves it.

    Anyhow I was just chatting about how the scheme worked and she was explaining how some kids will get more time than others due to when birthdays fall etc. She said she didn't understand why they didn't just give the extra hours created for a second year to current year, so parents could get a free year of full time childcare! Wouldn't that make so much more sense!


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    jlm29 wrote: »
    I should have said- my older boy is in a naoinra, and loves it, and I couldn't be happier with how much he's learning. But it's being taught in a very obvious order- started with basics like colours, and has professed gradually since September. I feel that if he went back a second year (not an option given his age), and was mixed in with kids who were only starting, those kids would have to start with the basics, but kids who were in their second year would have covered the basics. 2 years of pre-school is fine, but surely they would need to modify the curriculum to reflect that most kids would be doing 2 years instead of one.
    As I said a good school will easily cater for a two year programme. It's a sign a school isn't up to scratch if they don't.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,131 ✭✭✭RentDayBlues


    Both of mine will be doing 2 years but we'll end up paying for a full yeat each. Our montessori is one room but two streams to ensure different learning experiences for each year, it's a fantastic place. My eldest is learning stuff I didn't know until 3rd/4th class


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,948 ✭✭✭Sligo1


    lazygal wrote: »
    A good school won't have bored children! There's something lacking if a child is bored in preschool.

    That's what I'm thinking. I do t know how they will structure it with the 2 different years in the same class but I'm presuming they know what they're doing as they are well used to kids of this age. My little guy has come on brilliantly since he has been at this monte.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,828 ✭✭✭unklerosco


    PLL wrote:
    Anyhow I was just chatting about how the scheme worked and she was explaining how some kids will get more time than others due to when birthdays fall etc. She said she didn't understand why they didn't just give the extra hours created for a second year to current year, so parents could get a free year of full time childcare! Wouldn't that make so much more sense!

    The idea is to give children 2 years of education before they start in school instead of free childcare.. Hence the reason and pre school taking part has to have qualified staff and follow a curriculum... It means that in a few years all children will start primary school at the same level. Whereas now you've children that have spent two years in montessori etc. starting with children who haven't... Can mean a big difference in the level of abilities of children in jnr/snr infants..


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