Can students be punished for something that is their fundamental right?

VastEmptiness

Hi all, I'm wondering as to what the rights of students are. Are students entitled to fundamental rights (as per the Irish constitution) without it being a legal issue?

I believe that in my school people are being disciplined for what is their fundamental right (freedom of speech). And, no, they are not disrupting class or anything but rather for example at lunch if they're talking and a teacher sneaks up behind them and listens to what is being said - can they be punished? I'd rather not give the particular details because I'd be fairly certain my school is one of if not the only school to have this rule and I'd rather not be identified. But if I need to I will, thanks.

rainbowtrout

Ah here.

Presumably these students were bitching about a teacher in the school or another student or something to that effect. Now they are being punished for what they said.

If you say something out loud in a public area and can be heard by other people, then you are fair game. Teachers are required to do lunchtime supervision, so I doubt any sneaking was involved. Most teachers have better things to do with their time.

Penny Tration

In short - yes you can be punished if you're acting up or being particularly rude.

VastEmptiness

Penny Tration wrote: »

In short - yes you can be punished if you're acting up or being particularly rude.

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Ah here.

Presumably these students were bitching about a teacher in the school or another student or something to that effect. Now they are being punished for what they said.

If you say something out loud in a public area and can be heard by other people, then you are fair game. Teachers are required to do lunchtime supervision, so I doubt any sneaking was involved. Most teachers have better things to do with their time.

None of the above. I guess I'll have to say what it is. I go to a gaelscoil and if we're "caught" talking english we get disciplined.

spurious

Their club, their rules.

bpmurray

VastEmptiness wrote: »

I go to a gaelscoil and if we're "caught" talking english we get disciplined.

That's one of the fundamental rules of the school. Absolutely no rights whatsoever have been infringed. Free speech refers to the content, not the format!

rainbowtrout

VastEmptiness wrote: »

None of the above. I guess I'll have to say what it is. I go to a gaelscoil and if we're "caught" talking english we get disciplined.

You signed up to go to an Irish speaking school where the rule is to speak Irish. You broke the rule. You got punished. I don't see the problem.

If you don't want to play by their rules go to an English speaking school.

VastEmptiness

spurious wrote: »

Their club, their rules.

It's not a club, it's a school. I understand that it would naturally make sense for us to speak Irish all the time and I don't dispute that we should, but just because it's an Irish school shouldn't mean that they can disregard our right?

bpmurray wrote: »

That's one of the fundamental rules of the school. Absolutely no rights whatsoever have been infringed. Free speech refers to the content, not the format!

Fundamental rights of a human < Fundamental rules of a school? I disagree, free speech includes both the content and the language it's spoken in. Most things, I can't express myself adequately through Irish so it's just much easier to speak in English.

rainbowtrout wrote: »

You signed up to go to an Irish speaking school where the rule is to speak Irish. You broke the rule. You got punished. I don't see the problem.

If you don't want to play by their rules go to an English speaking school.

What makes you think any of this other than I go to an Irish speaking school?

rainbowtrout

VastEmptiness wrote: »

It's not a club, it's a school. I understand that it would naturally make sense for us to speak Irish all the time and I don't dispute that we should, but just because it's an Irish school shouldn't mean that they can disregard our right?



Fundamental rights of a human < Fundamental rules of a school? I disagree, free speech includes both the content and the language it's spoken in. Most things, I can't express myself adequately through Irish so it's just much easier to speak in English.

It's not your right. You chose to enrol in the school. You didn't have to go there. When you enrolled presumably you signed up to the school rules and policies. You signed a contract. Same as any other contract, there are terms and conditions. It's your problem that you don't like the terms and conditions you signed up for.

Harping on about your human rights is ridiculous.

VastEmptiness

Thanks guys I've come to the conclusion that there is no basis for an argument. For what it's worth I didn't speak English or get punished, I was just interested in whether this was an infringement of our rights or not. Thanks!

Yawns

VastEmptiness wrote: »

I'd be fairly certain my school is one of if not the only school to have this rule.

Nope, quite a few gaelscoils can and do have this rule. Not all but I know of 4 that do have it.

Most likely the punishment was lines / detention or delayed back after class for a few mins. Move on, they didn't breach your right to free speech, they disciplined you for breaking a school rule.

VastEmptiness

Yawns wrote: »

Nope, quite a few gaelscoils can and do have this rule. Not all but I know of 4 that do have it.

Most likely the punishment was lines / detention or delayed back after class for a few mins. Move on, they didn't breach your right to free speech, they disciplined you for breaking a school rule.

Actually suspension after 3 times. Should've phrased that better but I'm sure the punishment in my school is the only one worth giving out about.

rainbowtrout

VastEmptiness wrote: »

Actually suspension after 3 times.

Harsh perhaps, but if it's clearly stated as a consquence for speaking English and being caught 3 times then it is still the student's problem. They know the consequences for breaking the rule.

VastEmptiness

rainbowtrout wrote: »

It's not your right. You chose to enrol in the school. You didn't have to go there. When you enrolled presumably you signed up to the school rules and policies. You signed a contract. Same as any other contract, there are terms and conditions. It's your problem that you don't like the terms and conditions you signed up for.

Harping on about your human rights is ridiculous.

Don't be hostile, it's not me vs you, I was just interested in it I'm not going to go in and fight the system or anything!

Signing a contract that says it can breach your rights does not make you concede your rights?

Banjoxed

rainbowtrout wrote: »

You signed up to go to an Irish speaking school where the rule is to speak Irish. You broke the rule. You got punished. I don't see the problem.

If you don't want to play by their rules go to an English speaking school.

More likely their parents signed up to it and not them.

Here's a thing. Imagine any school in Ireland where if English is the spoken language, speaking Irish incurs disciplinary action?

No, I couldn't either.

VastEmptiness

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Harsh perhaps, but if it's clearly stated as a consquence for speaking English and being caught 3 times then it is still the student's problem. They know the consequences for breaking the rule.

Very harsh! I definitely agree that it's the student's problem. I think I'm just salty because the consequences are harsh and that it could potentially happen to me (partly adolescent rebelliousness).

Seesee

You will however get your extra 10% or whatever it is now for doing your exams in Irish so it will all be worth it in the end and once you leave school you'll never, ever have to speak the language again!

rainbowtrout

VastEmptiness wrote: »

Don't be hostile, it's not me vs you, I was just interested in it I'm not going to go in and fight the system or anything!

Signing a contract that says it can breach your rights does not make you concede your rights?

I'm not being hostile. Every year coming up to leaving cert there is some story in the paper of some student who has dyed their hair purple or got a load of facial piercings and is whinging because the school they are in won't let them back in until their dye their hair back to the normal colour / remove their piercings.

Every year they appear in some gutter tabloid saying their are being denied their right to sit the leaving cert, when in reality, they signed up to the school rules, not just that year but 5 years earlier when they entered the school as a first year. It usually emerges that the same student has been acting the pup all year with this caper and has only been attending one day a week anyway and finally the school has taken action after lots of warnings etc. They then decide to go to the media with a sob story making the school management look like the big bad wolf when the student was in the wrong the whole time.

This type of rule is no different. If you get a job in a business and they tell you that you can't have visible tattoos or piercings and the first week you rock up with a bar through your nose they will tell you to remove it or find a job elsewhere. It is your right to put a bar through your nose, it is their right to choose not to employ you when a stipulation of the job was no piercings.

Just like this, it is your right to speak English, it's is the schools right to suspend you or any other student who speaks English when you have signed up to a rule that states you agree to speak Irish on their premises.

VastEmptiness

Seesee wrote: »

You will however get your extra 10% or whatever it is now for doing your exams in Irish so it will all be worth it in the end and once you leave school you'll never, ever have to speak the language again!

So true! (well give or take 5% for it being a bit harder as Gaeilge). But yeah it's not about that really I just think it's interesting whether or not people think it's wrong that they can suspend us for communicating (among ourselves at lunch) in the most efficient manner.

emersyn

Banjoxed wrote: »

More likely their parents signed up to it and not them.

Here's a thing. Imagine any school in Ireland where if English is the spoken language, speaking Irish incurs disciplinary action?

No, I couldn't either.

That's a false equivalence. Irish is a dying language, one of the whole points behind Gaelscoils is to try and keep it alive. Since English is the most common language in the country your scenario isn't valid as it's a completely different situation. If people were constantly speaking English in Gaelscoils there wouldn't be any point in them existing. No one's human rights are being breached in this situation; as everyone keeps saying, if you're not willing to speak Irish while attending a Gaelscoil you should go to a different school.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

rainbowtrout

Banjoxed wrote: »

More likely their parents signed up to it and not them.

Here's a thing. Imagine any school in Ireland where if English is the spoken language, speaking Irish incurs disciplinary action?

No, I couldn't either.

Parents also make rules for their kids. They are the adults.

You are not taking a like for like case. English is the de facto language of the country. Irish is also an official language but is spoken by a minority of people as their first language and on a daily basis. Gaelscoils specifically promote the use of the Irish language, and culture associated with the Irish language. They have a specific cultural and linguistic ethos. Boards of management running schools with that rule obviously feel that the rule is necessary to ensure that Irish is the spoken language. Otherwise if the rule is relaxed, most students probably would revert to their first language which for most is English.

Also while many Gaelscoils are in Gaeltacht areas where students might actually speak Irish outside school, many are not, and many students attend Gaelscoils where that is their only exposure to the language. So it would be pointless to try and run a Gaelscoil and provide Irish language immersion if everyone spoke English by choice.

VastEmptiness

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I'm not being hostile. Every year coming up to leaving cert there is some story in the paper of some student who has dyed their hair purple or got a load of facial piercings and is whinging because the school they are in won't let them back in until their dye their hair back to the normal colour / remove their piercings.

Every year they appear in some gutter tabloid saying their are being denied their right to sit the leaving cert, when in reality, they signed up to the school rules, not just that year but 5 years earlier when they entered the school as a first year. It usually emerges that the same student has been acting the pup all year with this caper and has only been attending one day a week anyway and finally the school has taken action after lots of warnings etc. They then decide to go to the media with a sob story making the school management look like the big bad wolf when the student was in the wrong the whole time.

This type of rule is no different. If you get a job in a business and they tell you that you can't have visible tattoos or piercings and the first week you rock up with a bar through your nose they will tell you to remove it or find a job elsewhere. It is your right to put a bar through your nose, it is their right to choose not to employ you when a stipulation of the job was no piercings.

Just like this, it is your right to speak English, it's is the schools right to suspend you or any other student who speaks English when you have signed up to a rule that states you agree to speak Irish on their premises.

Ah yes it's the exact same!! Someone who shows up 1 day a week being suspended for a piercing/hair dye is the EXACT same to someone who speaks to their friends at lunch who shows up 5 days a week and gets straight A's!!

Basically my point is that just because you signed up for a gaelscoil doesn't mean you concede your right to free speech. Who could disagree with that?

emersyn

VastEmptiness wrote: »

Basically my point is that just because you signed up for a gaelscoil doesn't mean you concede your right to free speech. Who could disagree with that?

What do you think is the point of gaelscoils existing if you think you should be allowed to speak English...?

VastEmptiness

emersyn wrote: »

What do you think is the point of gaelscoils existing if you think you should be allowed to speak English...?

To be educated through the Irish language. So you do believe that you concede your right by attending?

emersyn

VastEmptiness wrote: »

To be educated through the Irish language. So you do believe that you concede your right by attending?

I believe that you're confused about the concept of free speech. Having free speech means the government can't jail you based on the opinions you voice. It doesn't have anything to do with a school giving you detention for breaking their extremely reasonable rule.

rainbowtrout

VastEmptiness wrote: »

Ah yes it's the exact same!! Someone who shows up 1 day a week being suspended for a piercing/hair dye is the EXACT same to someone who speaks to their friends at lunch who shows up 5 days a week and gets straight A's!!

Both are breaking the rules, so in this case it is comparable.

VastEmptiness

emersyn wrote: »

I believe that you're confused about the concept of free speech. Having free speech means the government can't jail you based on the opinions you voice. It doesn't have anything to do with a school giving you detention for breaking their extremely reasonable rule.

Incorrect. These rights are natural human rights and are confirmed and protected by the Constitution. You have the right to freely express your opinion (cannot be disciplined for it).

rainbowtrout

VastEmptiness wrote: »

Basically my point is that just because you signed up for a gaelscoil doesn't mean you concede your right to free speech. Who could disagree with that?

No one is taking away your right to free speech, you can say whatever you want, but while in the grounds of your school you'll have to say it in Irish.

free speech
noun
the right to express any opinions without censorship or restraint.

It doesn't sound like your opinions are being censored here. Also if you signed up to be educated through Irish, surely your education includes expanding your Irish vocabulary which you will need to do if you want to continue conversations with your friends at lunch?

emersyn

VastEmptiness wrote: »

Incorrect. These rights are natural human rights and are confirmed and protected by the Constitution. You have the right to freely express your opinion (cannot be disciplined for it).

If you honestly think you're being denied your constitutional rights I'd suggest taking your issue to court and seeing how well it plays out.

VastEmptiness

emersyn wrote: »

If you honestly think you're being denied your constitutional rights I'd suggest taking your issue to court and seeing how well it plays out.

I didn't say I'm being denied my constitutional rights.

rainbowtrout wrote: »

No one is taking away your right to free speech, you can say whatever you want, but while in the grounds of your school you'll have to say it in Irish.



It doesn't sound like your opinions are being censored here. Also if you signed up to be educated through Irish, surely your education includes expanding your Irish vocabulary which you will need to do if you want to continue conversations with your friends at lunch?

Nice quote from the dictionary, The Constitution recognises and declares that people living in Ireland have certain fundamental personal rights. These rights are natural human rights and are confirmed and protected by the Constitution.

"No one is taking away your right to free speech". I guess that's the same if I live in a country which prohibits free speech, I can say it, but I'd get punished for it.

If I can't adequately express my opinion in Irish, that would mean that I'm being denied free speech. My education does include expanding my vocabulary, obviously not well enough.