Can students be punished for something that is their fundamental right?

DivingDuck

Agreeing to be educated in Irish shouldn't mean you're unable to express yourself in English during what should be a private conversation with another pupil. Secondary pupils generally have very little individual say in what school they attend as it's usually chosen by their parents when they are under 12. Changing school in the middle of your education is difficult and in many cases not even practical or possible, so simply saying "Go somewhere else if you don't like it" is unrealistic.

Unfortunately, you probably don't have much legal recourse here, but I'd love to see someone challenge the schools over it legally. I doubt it would succeed, though, since all you could do would be challenge them for banning certain words (English words), and for a court to find in your favour, it would open the door to schools being unable to ban swearing at staff, etc.

I think like most people, you'll simply have to accept that secondary school has to be mostly tolerated rather than enjoyed, and look forward to the day when you can leave.

hognef

Presumably, you can learn German in a gaelscoil. I wonder if you would be punished for improving your German by speaking it outside of classes?

VastEmptiness

DivingDuck wrote: »

Agreeing to be educated in Irish shouldn't mean you're unable to express yourself in English during what should be a private conversation with another pupil. Secondary pupils generally have very little individual say in what school they attend as it's usually chosen by their parents when they are under 12. Changing school in the middle of your education is difficult and in many cases not even practical or possible, so simply saying "Go somewhere else if you don't like it" is unrealistic.

Unfortunately, you probably don't have much legal recourse here, but I'd love to see someone challenge the schools over it legally. I doubt it would succeed, though, since all you could do would be challenge them for banning certain words (English words), and for a court to find in your favour, it would open the door to schools being unable to ban swearing at staff, etc.

I think like most people, you'll simply have to accept that secondary school has to be mostly tolerated rather than enjoyed, and look forward to the day when you can leave.

Finally someone understands! "Just leaving" is quite a big deal!

It's not that I actually care about legal recourse (or the rule, as a matter of fact, although it's dumb) I was just wondering out of interest.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

VastEmptiness wrote: »

Thanks guys I've come to the conclusion that there is no basis for an argument. For what it's worth I didn't speak English or get punished, I was just interested in whether this was an infringement of our rights or not. Thanks!

If it's during school time then no - as someone said, you're bound by the school rules you (or your parents onyour behalf) agreed to upon your enrollemnt. you'll just have to either speak Irish, or not get caught.

If it's outside of school time, then yes.

You still have the right to attend a diffetent school where the rules are more to your liking.

spurious

hognef wrote:

Presumably, you can learn German in a gaelscoil. I wonder if you would be punished for improving your German by speaking it outside of classes?

It would depend on whether that was a school rule or not. Their club/party/institution, their rules.

Mr Rhode Island Red

It's threads like these that make me remember just how many rules I'm abiding by in school and make me want to get out as soon as possible.

randylonghorn

VastEmptiness wrote: »

It's not a club, it's a school. I understand that it would naturally make sense for us to speak Irish all the time and I don't dispute that we should, but just because it's an Irish school shouldn't mean that they can disregard our right?

Fundamental rights of a human < Fundamental rules of a school? I disagree, free speech includes both the content and the language it's spoken in. Most things, I can't express myself adequately through Irish so it's just much easier to speak in English.

VastEmptiness wrote: »

Incorrect. These rights are natural human rights and are confirmed and protected by the Constitution. You have the right to freely express your opinion (cannot be disciplined for it).

Ok, let's take this discussion, which has wandered a bit, back to basics.

You base your argument on the fundamental right to free speech. Unfortunately, you do so without understanding just what is meant by that right.

You're not the only one in fairness; even many highly educated adults (at least in terms of fancy bits of paper decorating their walls) regularly pontificate about the right to free speech without understanding what it actually covers.

The general assumption is that freedom of speech means you have the right to say whatever you want, whenever you want, wherever you want without restriction. It doesn't mean anything of the kind, even for an adult of legal age living in the most free democracy you can think of in the world. There are always restrictions.

Let's just look for a minute at a few of the restrictions which a normal adult in a free democracy might encounter in this respect. The law of the country will normally impose several, and they usually have to do with balancing your right of free speech with the rights of others to privacy, to maintain their good name, to live their lives free of harassment or hate-speech due to their gender, ethnic origins, religion, sexuality, etc. Thus for example there are laws to protect the privacy of individuals, there are laws of defamation to protect their good name, there are laws about hate-speech etc. All of these restrict an individual's right to freedom of speech to some extent, with a view to balancing their right to free speech with the rights of others, and as such they are deemed acceptable and indeed necessary by not just state legislatures around the world but by the UNCHR itself.

Now, you will immediately say "but none of these are particularly close corollaries to the situation I described!" ... and you would be right. But I'm not suggesting they are, I'm simply pointing out that there are always restrictions on absolute free speech, and that some of them are actually imposed and accepted as necessary and supported by the very bodies which support and promulgate the right to free speech itself.

Now, let's look at some other restrictions to the right to free speech: the ones you agree to yourself as an individual (or which are agreed to on behalf of a minor by his / her parents or guardians, which legally is the same thing); and here we come closer to the nub of your case.

If you go down to the cinema on Saturday, and decide to exercise your right to free speech on (let's just say) the political situation in the Middle East in the middle of the film, you will most likely be ejected. Why? Have the management strong views on the Middle East? Unlikely, tbh. You will be ejected because by buying your ticket and entering the cinema you implicitly agreed to abide by the rules of the place, i.e. that patrons shall remain silent so that others may enjoy the film without interruption. You may not have signed a contract on the way in, but you nevertheless "contracted in" to abide by those rules or face the penalty. In other words, you voluntarily agreed to restrict your right to free speech to conform to the rules of the cinema.

When people join Boards.ie, they agree to the terms and conditions of the site, including to obey the site rules. These rules deliberately limit freedom of speech both to obey the law (in some instances) and so that all may enjoy the site; they require a certain degree of civility and forbid posters to abuse others; they forbid discussion of certain subjects (e.g. where to get drugs, how to commit illegal acts, discussions which are defamatory to named individuals, posts advertising businesses, etc. etc.) and so on. By signing up to the site and accepting the terms and conditions, you "contracted in" to abide by those rules or face the penalty. In other words, you voluntarily agreed to restrict your right to free speech to conform to the rules of the site.

When students enrol in a school, they agree to the terms and conditions laid down by the school (or, given their age, normally their parents / guardians agree to them on their behalf; legally, it's the same thing when the individual is a minor). In the case you mention, this entails not so much a curb on your right to free speech (though there are likely to be restrictions on that as well; announcing loudly in the classroom that the principal is a b*ll*ox is likely to bring down a penalty on your head!) as a curb on the medium through which you express it. You (or your parents / guardians on your behalf) agreed that you would speak Irish at all times during the school day / on the school premises (or whatever way it's worded). By enrolling in the school and accepting the terms and conditions, you "contracted in" to abide by those rules or face the penalty. In other words, you voluntarily agreed to restrict your right to free speech (and to restrict the medium through which you expressed yourself) to conform to the rules of the school.

In none of the above cases would any court hold that your fundamental right to free speech had been abrogated.

The right to free speech is never absolute. There are always restrictions, whether ones imposed by state law in order to balance that right with the rights of others, or ones which you have agreed to impose on yourself in order to be part of a club / institution / school / discussion site / cinema audience, etc.

Banjoxed wrote: »

Here's a thing. Imagine any school in Ireland where if English is the spoken language, speaking Irish incurs disciplinary action?

No, I couldn't either.

That's because there's no reason for such a rule in any school.

However, just to mention as a matter of interest, there are many English-speaking schools in non-English speaking countries around the world which have the same or similar rules. Such schools are, like the gaelscoileanna, "language immersion" schools, and such rules are a pretty normal part of that scenario.

In other words, it's not just an Irish oddity! :pac:

La Fenetre

Many people today don't seem to realise that every right also comes with a responsibility. If you don't accept the corresponding responsibility that goes with that right, the right disappears.

VastEmptiness

randylonghorn wrote: »

Ok, let's take this discussion, which has wandered a bit, back to basics.

You base your argument on the fundamental right to free speech. Unfortunately, you do so without understanding just what is meant by that right.

You're not the only one in fairness; even many highly educated adults (at least in terms of fancy bits of paper decorating their walls) regularly pontificate about the right to free speech without understanding what it actually covers.

The general assumption is that freedom of speech means you have the right to say whatever you want, whenever you want, wherever you want without restriction. It doesn't mean anything of the kind, even for an adult of legal age living in the most free democracy you can think of in the world. There are always restrictions.

Let's just look for a minute at a few of the restrictions which a normal adult in a free democracy might encounter in this respect. The law of the country will normally impose several, and they usually have to do with balancing your right of free speech with the rights of others to privacy, to maintain their good name, to live their lives free of harassment or hate-speech due to their gender, ethnic origins, religion, sexuality, etc. Thus for example there are laws to protect the privacy of individuals, there are laws of defamation to protect their good name, there are laws about hate-speech etc. All of these restrict an individual's right to freedom of speech to some extent, with a view to balancing their right to free speech with the rights of others, and as such they are deemed acceptable and indeed necessary by not just state legislatures around the world but by the UNCHR itself.

Now, you will immediately say "but none of these are particularly close corollaries to the situation I described!" ... and you would be right. But I'm not suggesting they are, I'm simply pointing out that there are always restrictions on absolute free speech, and that some of them are actually imposed and accepted as necessary and supported by the very bodies which support and promulgate the right to free speech itself.

Now, let's look at some other restrictions to the right to free speech: the ones you agree to yourself as an individual (or which are agreed to on behalf of a minor by his / her parents or guardians, which legally is the same thing); and here we come closer to the nub of your case.

If you go down to the cinema on Saturday, and decide to exercise your right to free speech on (let's just say) the political situation in the Middle East in the middle of the film, you will most likely be ejected. Why? Have the management strong views on the Middle East? Unlikely, tbh. You will be ejected because by buying your ticket and entering the cinema you implicitly agreed to abide by the rules of the place, i.e. that patrons shall remain silent so that others may enjoy the film without interruption. You may not have signed a contract on the way in, but you nevertheless "contracted in" to abide by those rules or face the penalty. In other words, you voluntarily agreed to restrict your right to free speech to conform to the rules of the cinema.

When people join Boards.ie, they agree to the terms and conditions of the site, including to obey the site rules. These rules deliberately limit freedom of speech both to obey the law (in some instances) and so that all may enjoy the site; they require a certain degree of civility and forbid posters to abuse others; they forbid discussion of certain subjects (e.g. where to get drugs, how to commit illegal acts, discussions which are defamatory to named individuals, posts advertising businesses, etc. etc.) and so on. By signing up to the site and accepting the terms and conditions, you "contracted in" to abide by those rules or face the penalty. In other words, you voluntarily agreed to restrict your right to free speech to conform to the rules of the site.

When students enrol in a school, they agree to the terms and conditions laid down by the school (or, given their age, normally their parents / guardians agree to them on their behalf; legally, it's the same thing when the individual is a minor). In the case you mention, this entails not so much a curb on your right to free speech (though there are likely to be restrictions on that as well; announcing loudly in the classroom that the principal is a b*ll*ox is likely to bring down a penalty on your head!) as a curb on the medium through which you express it. You (or your parents / guardians on your behalf) agreed that you would speak Irish at all times during the school day / on the school premises (or whatever way it's worded). By enrolling in the school and accepting the terms and conditions, you "contracted in" to abide by those rules or face the penalty. In other words, you voluntarily agreed to restrict your right to free speech (and to restrict the medium through which you expressed yourself) to conform to the rules of the school.

In none of the above cases would any court hold that your fundamental right to free speech had been abrogated.

The right to free speech is never absolute. There are always restrictions, whether ones imposed by state law in order to balance that right with the rights of others, or ones which you have agreed to impose on yourself in order to be part of a club / institution / school / discussion site / cinema audience, etc.

That's because there's no reason for such a rule in any school.

However, just to mention as a matter of interest, there are many English-speaking schools in non-English speaking countries around the world which have the same or similar rules. Such schools are, like the gaelscoileanna, "language immersion" schools, and such rules are a pretty normal part of that scenario.

In other words, it's not just an Irish oddity! :pac:

Thank you for explaining to me in a logical, rational, non-hateful fashion how I was wrong. Take note people.

randylonghorn

In fairness, I don't think anyone was harsh or hateful, Vast, they simply assumed that you would understand what they were talking about without stripping the subject back to the foundations and going through it step by step, and perhaps got a slight bit frustrated when you seemed to be missing the point.

A number of years of modding on Boards and indeed more general life experience has taught me that a large number of people much older and more experienced than you have huge mis-perceptions about what the right to free speech actually covers.

If you have a better grasp of the idea after to-night, and don't end up in the future as another poster on Boards going "but ... but ... but ... FREE SPEECH!" when a mod hauls them up in some forum for calling another poster a dickhead because they don't agree with them, I'll consider my time well spent!