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Taxi drivers fail in bid for compensation over licence deregulation

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    #32
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,417 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    end of the road wrote: »
    it was still the governments fault for their extreme regulation and failures which engineered the situation. the government are responsible, nobody else.

    The plate owners were the victims of their own greed. Even when people had to queue for hours in the rain in downtown Dublin to get taxis around Christmas time, the plate owners steadfastly resisted all attempts to issue more licences, or they occasionally grudgingly agreed to allow a trickle of new licences.

    Their attitude was that their income and the asset value of the plate superseded the interests of the general public, the people the system was supposed to be serving.

    The regulation and the situation it brought about was happily embraced by the plate owners who poured money into the election coffers of people like Ivor Callely to lobby to maintain the status quo.

    Blaming the Govt. in hindsight is laughable.


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    #33
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,049 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    coylemj wrote: »
    The plate owners were the victims of their own greed. Even when people had to queue for hours in the rain in downtown Dublin to get taxis around Christmas time, the plate owners steadfastly resisted all attempts to issue more licences, or they occasionally grudgingly agreed to allow a trickle of new licences.

    there was no greed on behalf of the plate owners. it was the extreme regulation in the first place that caused the lot. the plate owners had put a ridiculous amount of money in to be part of an industry and had every right to protection in return. the situation where such protection was required should never have been. new licences were issued when there was room for them, nothing to do with the drivers. the drivers didn't and couldn't stop the issuing of licences, they could give their opinion on the issue like they currently can on any issue.
    coylemj wrote: »
    Their attitude was that their income and the asset value of the plate superseded the interests of the general public, the people the system was supposed to be serving.

    their attitude was nothing of the sort
    coylemj wrote: »
    The regulation and the situation it brought about was happily embraced by the plate owners who poured money into the election coffers of people like Ivor Callely to lobby to maintain the status quo.

    not at all.
    coylemj wrote: »
    Blaming the Govt. in hindsight is laughable.

    no, its the truth as far as i'm concerned. the government implemented the regulations.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #34
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,550 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    You have a very odd memory of something recent enough the news articles are all online. The existing plate holders overwhelmingly supported the limitations and had most of FFs northside TDs in their pockets.


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    #35
    Valetta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,611 ✭✭✭Valetta


    end of the road wrote: »
    there was no greed on behalf of the plate owners. it was the extreme regulation in the first place that caused the lot. the plate owners had put a ridiculous amount of money in to be part of an industry and had every right to protection in return. the situation where such protection was required should never have been. new licences were issued when there was room for them, nothing to do with the drivers. .

    I've put a ridiculous amount of money into a sweet shop.

    The bloody government refuse to stop other people opening up beside me.

    Where's my protection?

    You see how ridiculous your argument is?


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    #36
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,049 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Valetta wrote: »
    I've put a ridiculous amount of money into a sweet shop.

    The bloody government refuse to stop other people opening up beside me.

    Where's my protection?

    You see how ridiculous your argument is?
    not comparable so not ridiculous at all

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #37
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,289 ✭✭✭markpb


    end of the road wrote: »
    not comparable

    Why?


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    #38
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,049 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    your post is missing bk. anyway the government had plenty of backbone, they rightly didn't implement the stupidity that was complete de-regulation for as long as possible. they rightly didn't need to stand up to the drivers as it was their extreme regulation that caused it all. the taxi drivers are in no way to blame, they simply took advantage of a situation created by a dimwit government. we have gone from one shambles to the opposite shambles as far as i'm concerned

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #39
    Dodge
    Registered Users Posts: 10,262 ✭✭✭✭Dodge


    As a customer, I don't think anyone can say the old situation wasn't a disgrace. It wasn't the taxi drivers fault there wasn't enough of them but there clearly wasn't enough of them.

    If there's a few too many now, that's a price most people are willing to pay. If Taxi drivers can't make a living out of the game, they'll quickly move to another job. Natural selection.


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    #40
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    end of the road wrote: »
    we have gone from one shambles to the opposite shambles as far as i'm concerned
    Why is the current situation a shambles?

    It's now a free market in effect. If drivers cannot make enough of a living, they will move onto something else. And through natural churn the market has found the right balance of taxis - there are now enough taxis to take people where they want to go, and drivers can earn an appropriate living.


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    #41
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,049 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Dodge wrote: »
    If there's a few too many now, that's a price most people are willing to pay.

    there is way to many. is the customer willing to pay the price of potentially having a driver working over their hours because they can make little and because of little enforcement and what god forbid that could bring? if one is okay with that, that is fine, thats their right but i'm definitely not willing to pay that price.
    Dodge wrote: »
    If Taxi drivers can't make a living out of the game, they'll quickly move to another job. Natural selection.

    no they won't. considering the country isn't a wash with jobs the only choice is continue working or be unemployed. is the taxi driver going to pick unemployment or are they going to continue to work? natural selection is not working in this industry.
    seamus wrote: »
    It's now a free market in effect.

    and its failing. more and more keep coming, few leave. its unsustainable.
    seamus wrote: »
    If drivers cannot make enough of a living, they will move onto something else.

    well, it doesn't look like that is happening. and many drivers seem to disagree, they can't simply move on to something else. they have bills to pay, the country isn't a wash with jobs. the risks of moving job are still to big.
    seamus wrote: »
    through natural churn the market has found the right balance of taxis

    a good amount of taxi drivers disagree. i will take their word personally. they know the industry. they know what is going on. i will believe them
    seamus wrote: »
    drivers can earn an appropriate living.

    can they? if they can all make a living, that must mean the good amount of taxi drivers who are struggling are infact telling lies?

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #42
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    end of the road wrote: »
    and its failing. more and more keep coming, few leave. its unsustainable.
    Fine. That's the free market. Eventually they'll stop coming because there's no money in it.
    well, it doesn't look like that is happening. and many drivers seem to disagree, they can't simply move on to something else. they have bills to pay, the country isn't a wash with jobs. the risks of moving job are still to big.
    Not that I don't care, but again that's the free market, that's what happens. Especially where the service being supplied doesn't require a lot of skill to provide it.
    The state should not fiddle with markets to put an artificial cap on them. That's how you create artificial bubbles.

    To take the sweetshop example, if suddenly every second business opening up around you is a sweetshop, eventually something's gotta give and people will go out of business. It's not in the public interest for the state to decide how many sweetshops are permitted per square km.
    can they? if they can all make a living, that must mean the good amount of taxi drivers who are struggling are infact telling lies?
    "Struggling" is subjective. Someone can be earning 80k per year and "struggling", while someone on 25k is doing alright.
    I expect that many drivers who bought decent houses in boomtime and especially those who went on to buy multiple properties, they're finding taxi driving won't pay the bills.
    But I've equally spoken to plenty of drivers who decided to jump in within the last five years because they had no job, and are ticking along fine. Are they in fact telling lies?


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    #43
    Dodge
    Registered Users Posts: 10,262 ✭✭✭✭Dodge


    end of the road wrote: »
    there is way to many. is the customer willing to pay the price of potentially having a driver working over their hours because they can make little and because of little enforcement and what god forbid that could bring? if one is okay with that, that is fine, thats their right but i'm definitely not willing to pay that price.



    no they won't. considering the country isn't a wash with jobs the only choice is continue working or be unemployed. is the taxi driver going to pick unemployment or are they going to continue to work? natural selection is not working in this industry.
    They're going to do whatever is best for themselves and their families. Why would they choose anything different?


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    #44
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,417 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    The government regulates electricians and gas fitters in that they must be registered and certified before they can provide a service to members of the public. That's appropriate since we don't want cowboys operating in those industries and endangering public safety.

    Similarly we need some regulation over the taxi business to ensure that vehicles are safe to operate and that there is some vetting done on people who drive around our streets and who in their work will be picking up lone females late at night.

    Yet there are people out there who think that the taxi business is somehow special and Darwinian principles (natural selection) shouldn't apply?

    Why should the state control the number of taxis while allowing market forces operate with other service industries like electricians and gas fitters?


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    #45
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,049 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    seamus wrote: »
    Fine. That's the free market. Eventually they'll stop coming because there's no money in it.

    its not working seamus,
    the free market isn't working in this industry,
    no amount of saying free market will change it.
    seamus wrote: »
    Not that I don't care, but again that's the free market, that's what happens. Especially where the service being supplied doesn't require a lot of skill to provide it.

    but its not happening,
    the drivers keep coming,
    very few are leaving because they probably can't,
    no amount of saying its the free market will change it,
    the system is unsustainable,
    the free market isn't working here from what i can see,
    the free market doesn't always work,
    infact it can fail rather a good bit.

    seamus wrote: »
    The state should not fiddle with markets to put an artificial cap on them.

    if it involves an industry involving vehicles that carry passengers where an over supply may lead to some taking risks, then yes they should.
    seamus wrote: »
    To take the sweetshop example, if suddenly every second business opening up around you is a sweetshop, eventually something's gotta give and people will go out of business.

    its not comparable. if to many sweet shops open, nobody will die. if to many taxis enter the industry, some will take risks which god forbid could cause a death. just because it hasn't happened so far, is no reason not to deal with the issue. as i said, if people aren't bothered, thats their problem. it won't effect me personally, i just hope its not someone i know in that car if a driver hasn't slept and worked over his hours if that happens.
    seamus wrote: »
    It's not in the public interest for the state to decide how many sweetshops are permitted per square km.

    it is in the public interest to decide the amount of taxis to ensure a safe sustainible industry.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #46
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,049 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    coylemj wrote: »
    The government regulates electricians and gas fitters in that they must be registered and certified before they can provide a service to members of the public. That's appropriate since we don't want cowboys operating in those industries and endangering public safety.

    Similarly we need some regulation over the taxi business to ensure that vehicles are safe to operate and that there is some vetting done on people who drive around our streets and who in their work will be picking up lone females late at night.

    Yet there are people out there who think that the taxi business is somehow special and Darwinian principles (natural selection) shouldn't apply?

    Why should the state control the number of taxis while allowing market forces operate with other service industries like electricians and gas fitters?

    because market forces does not look to be working. you can see my above post as to why the state needs to ensure a sustainible industry. if thats not what you want thats your problem, it won't effect me should something go wrong.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #47
    Dodge
    Registered Users Posts: 10,262 ✭✭✭✭Dodge


    end of the road wrote: »
    but its not happening,
    the drivers keep coming,
    very few are leaving because they probably can't,

    why can't they?


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    #48
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    end of the road wrote: »
    if to many taxis enter the industry, some will take risks which god forbid could cause a death. just because it hasn't happened so far, is no reason not to deal with the issue. as i said, if people aren't bothered, thats their problem. it won't effect me personally, i just hope its not someone i know in that car if a driver hasn't slept and worked over his hours if that happens.
    There are already road traffic laws that deal with driving while excessively tired. But you make a good case for installing tachographs in taxis to prevent drivers doing too many hours.

    What you describe is not caused by or a symptom of deregulation. Some drivers can and will do too many hours either way.

    I'd also like to see the data you have for your assertion that new taxi drivers "just keep coming". How has the number of taxis increased year on year since deregulation?

    Edit: Never mind, I've done the legwork for you.

    Here's a report showing SPSV licence stats:
    https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Taxi_Statistics_for_Ireland_-_Statistical_Bulletin_No._2_2014.pdf

    Detailing that the number of active driver licences dropped from a peak of 47,000 in 2009, and stood at 31,186 at the end of 2013. Since then, even with the uptick in the economy, active driver licences have continued to drop, standing at 28,387 at the end of July 2015.

    You are so unbelieveably full of sh1t. Do you even believe the stuff that comes out of your mouth?


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    #49
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,411 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    seamus wrote: »
    There are already road traffic laws that deal with driving while excessively tired. But you make a good case for installing tachographs in taxis to prevent drivers doing too many hours.

    What you describe is not caused by or a symptom of deregulation. Some drivers can and will do too many hours either way.

    I'd also like to see the data you have for your assertion that new taxi drivers "just keep coming". How has the number of taxis increased year on year since deregulation?


    I would like to see those numbers as well. According to the NTA the number of SPSVs has decreased by 20% since 2008. https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Taxi_Statistics_for_Ireland_-_Statistical_Bulletin_No._2_2014.pdf

    Edited to add: this is same link that seamus included with a ninja edit in the post above


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    #50
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 13,103 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    seamus wrote: »
    Here's a report showing SPSV licence stats:
    https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Taxi_Statistics_for_Ireland_-_Statistical_Bulletin_No._2_2014.pdf

    Detailing that the number of active driver licences dropped from a peak of 47,000 in 2009, and stood at 31,186 at the end of 2013. Since then, even with the uptick in the economy, active driver licences have continued to drop, standing at 28,387 at the end of July 2015.

    Since 2010 there has been two fundamental changes to taxi licences; they being that the free flowing transfer of licences was curtailed drastically and that new taxi plates issued have been for Wheelchair assessable taxi's only. Both factors have seen a sharp demise in new entrant drivers as well as it's making it that bit more expensive to enter the trade.

    On PSV badges, the cost of applying for same has increased from €15 to €250. In addition to this, there is now a new test regime in place for applicants which had made it less easy to apply; some counties didn't even have a PSV test in place. These two measures have created gradual slump in the amount of those holding PSV badge holders.


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    #51
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,493 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    seamus wrote: »
    Why is the current situation a shambles?

    Why? Because half of Dublin is blocked up with taxis illegally parked or cruising around in circles looking for non existent fares. It may be an improvement for taxi customers but the rest of us suffer more congestion and more needless emissions.


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    #52
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    end of the road wrote: »
    its not working seamus
    Whats not working?
    Plenty of taxis around providing a service to the public.... Plenty of drivers around so it must be possible to be profitable... Whats the problem?


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    #53
    Terrontress
    Registered Users Posts: 3,900 ✭✭✭Terrontress


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    Why? Because half of Dublin is blocked up with taxis illegally parked or cruising around in circles looking for non existent fares. It may be an improvement for taxi customers but the rest of us suffer more congestion and more needless emissions.

    But there is sufficient legislation and regulation in place to deal with that already. Penalise the illegal parking.

    If there are too many sweet shops so they start selling drugs from beneath the counter to make ends meet, do you bust people for selling drugs or do you limit the number of sweet shops to guarantee them an income so they won't have to resort to breaking the rules.


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    #54
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Losty Dublin wrote: »
    Since 2010 there has been two fundamental changes to taxi licences; they being that the free flowing transfer of licences was curtailed drastically and that new taxi plates issued have been for Wheelchair assessable taxi's only. Both factors have seen a sharp demise in new entrant drivers as well as it's making it that bit more expensive to enter the trade.

    On PSV badges, the cost of applying for same has increased from €15 to €250. In addition to this, there is now a new test regime in place for applicants which had made it less easy to apply; some counties didn't even have a PSV test in place. These two measures have created gradual slump in the amount of those holding PSV badge holders.
    Interesting, all sounds good.
    Why? Because half of Dublin is blocked up with taxis illegally parked or cruising around in circles looking for non existent fares. It may be an improvement for taxi customers but the rest of us suffer more congestion and more needless emissions.
    It's not really that bad. Some areas at specific times of the day get very busy, but otherwise there's no major effect on the city.

    Ultimately again it's free market economics. There wouldn't be so many taxis if there wasn't a need for them. If there is in fact an issue with too many taxis, then the only way to combat that is to provide improved public transport alternatives.


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    #55
    Dodge
    Registered Users Posts: 10,262 ✭✭✭✭Dodge


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    Why? Because half of Dublin is blocked up with taxis illegally parked or cruising around in circles looking for non existent fares. It may be an improvement for taxi customers but the rest of us suffer more congestion and more needless emissions.

    Half of Dublin or a couple of streets on Friday and Saturday nights?


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    #56
    aphex™
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,338 ✭✭✭aphex™


    Dodge wrote: »
    Half of Dublin or a couple of streets on Friday and Saturday nights?

    Most streets in and out of the city center, most days.


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    #57
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,328 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    Small point re: a post above.

    If you pay any sort of tax, you're a taxpayer. Paying Income tax doesn't make you special, nor is it separated in the government accounts.


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    #58
    Mr.Frame
    Registered Users Posts: 766 ✭✭✭Mr.Frame


    L1011 wrote: »
    You have a very odd memory of something recent enough the news articles are all online. The existing plate holders overwhelmingly supported the limitations and had most of FFs northside TDs in their pockets.

    Not true


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    #59
    Mr.Frame
    Registered Users Posts: 766 ✭✭✭Mr.Frame


    Valetta wrote: »
    I've put a ridiculous amount of money into a sweet shop.

    The bloody government refuse to stop other people opening up beside me.

    Where's my protection?

    You see how ridiculous your argument is?


    If your sweet shop failed, you could sell something different, apart from sweets. Or you could let out your shop.
    You would still have the value of the leasehold. Your argument is ridiculous.


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    #60
    Terrontress
    Registered Users Posts: 3,900 ✭✭✭Terrontress


    Mr.Frame wrote: »
    If your sweet shop failed, you could sell something different, apart from sweets. Or you could let out your shop.
    You would still have the value of the leasehold. Your argument is ridiculous.

    And if taxiing doesn't work, you could use your car for couriering, being a sales rep, doing census returns or whatever else cars make money by.


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    #61
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 13,103 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    Terrontress wrote: »
    And if taxiing doesn't work, you could use your car for couriering, being a sales rep, doing census returns or whatever else cars make money by.

    Now do you honestly think that most taxi drivers haven't got something else in as as well or as least considered it? :)

    Mind you, there's no sense in relying on census work for income as it only comes up for a few weeks once in a blue moon and it's mainly door to door in urban areas.


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