RTE 'revamping' the Angelus slot

LordSutch

Personally speaking I think that one minute of pointless 'bongs' robs RTE of news viewers.

Every time the Angelus starts with a Bong, we quickly switch to another station to catch the Six O'Clock news headlines!

So we actually switch stations to avoid the Angelus, because we want the headlines NOW! > not in a minutes time after eighteen pointless* bongs.

Pointless* to me that is.

LorMal

digger58 wrote: »

"The Angelus costs hardly anything, is innocuous and causes no offence to those who don't want to be offended" Really, People who don't get cancer don't die from it! same argument. It has nothing to do with being offended, the angelus doesn't offend me per se, What I and a lot of others, judging by the comments here, find difficult to swallow is the way RTE is showing preference to the RC religion over other religions and none. Since it is the ONLY state broadcaster it has a duty to make sure their programming is totally secular and without prejudice. By taking on the duty of calling the faithful Roman Catholics to prayer it is showing bias.

Being 'totally secular' is actually not without prejudice. It is most definitely showing preference to those who choose not to practice any faith.
The strong and passionate views expressed here against the Angelus reflect a quite virilent anti religion sentiment that has emerged recently in Ireland.
I am not a practicing Catholic myself but I do feel that the huge numbers of Catholics who live here are entitled to some respect for their sincerely held beliefs.
The Angelus is a quaint throwback - more cultural than religious at this stage - like Tayto crisps or the Late Late Toy Show.
The anger expressed here is not warranted. I have heard the call for prayer broadcast on TV and Radio in nearly every Muslim country I have visited over the years.
The hate for the Church sounds today every bit as nasty and intolerant as the Church did in Ireland in the 70s and 80s.

Canadel

LorMal wrote: »

Being 'totally secular' is actually not without prejudice. It is most definitely showing preference to those who choose not to practice any faith.
The strong and passionate views expressed here against the Angelus reflect a quite virilent anti religion sentiment that has emerged recently in Ireland.
I am not a practicing Catholic myself but I do feel that the huge numbers of Catholics who live here are entitled to some respect for their sincerely held beliefs.
The Angelus is a quaint throwback - more cultural than religious at this stage - like Tayto crisps or the Late Late Toy Show.
The anger expressed here is not warranted. I have heard the call for prayer broadcast on TV and Radio in nearly every Muslim country I have visited over the years.
The hate for the Church sounds today every bit as nasty and intolerant as the Church did in Ireland in the 70s and 80s.

Thankfully I don't need to read the thread to highlight this post as absolute and unadulterated rubbish. Firstly, you're wrong, secularism is without prejudice, that is of course if you don't already hold religious belief as more worthy and deserving of mention. Secondly, nobody is entitled to some respect for their beliefs, whether sincerely or insincerely held. I can choose to respect the junkie I pass on the way to work everyday for his beliefs concerning crack more than the religious beliefs of my aunt who is a Catholic. People deserve respect, beliefs don't. People are entitled to entertain and practice their beliefs and nobody has a problem with that. Which brings me to your last point, which again is total bollix, but at least you acknowledge the nasty and intolerant nature of the church in Ireland. Of course people are going to dislike, hate and criticise such an organisation. You can be tolerant of a person's right to believe what they believe, but there is no law or moral obligation to be tolerant of those beliefs. And tolerance of intolerance is not tolerance.

LorMal

Canadel wrote: »

Thankfully I don't need to read the thread to highlight this post as absolute and unadulterated rubbish. Firstly, you're wrong, secularism is without prejudice, that is of course if you don't already hold religious belief as more worthy and deserving of mention. Secondly, nobody is entitled to some respect for their beliefs, whether sincerely or insincerely held. I can choose to respect the junkie I pass on the way to work everyday for his beliefs concerning crack more than the religious beliefs of my aunt who is a Catholic. People deserve respect, beliefs don't. People are entitled to entertain and practice their beliefs and nobody has a problem with that. Which brings me to your last point, which again is total bollix, but at least you acknowledge the nasty and intolerant nature of the church in Ireland. Of course people are going to dislike, hate and criticise such an organisation. You can be tolerant of a person's right to believe what they believe, but there is no law or moral obligation to be tolerant of those beliefs. And tolerance of intolerance is not tolerance.

Everything about your post, particularly the scathing and aggressive tone, screams intolerance. Burning churches next?

Canadel

LorMal wrote: »

Everything about your post, particularly the scathing and aggressive tone, screams intolerance. Burning churches next?

Everything about your above post says you don't understand what you're talking about. A scathing and aggressive tone does not necessarily mean, never mind scream, intolerance. Saying "'totally secular' is actually not without prejudice" 100% does scream intolerance. You're the only person in the entire thread to mention burning churches, and only you can know why.

Amalgam

I like the bongs. I don't have a religion.

The one on Wednesday evening of the man forging a rose was rather relaxing to watch, more of that please.

LordSutch

Let's get something straight in relation the Christian faith & the RTE Angelus.

As a Christian I pray to God. I pray in Church and I pray privately when I feel like it, but I don't pray at Six pm just before the RTE News, as I have zero knowledge of any Christian teaching that requires me to stop/reflect, and pray at that precise time of the day!

Now I do understand that many Roman Catholics hold the Angelus dear to heir hearts and that this daily event means a lot to them, but should it be broadcast to everybody on the National airwaves, by the State broadcaster? I ask this in the context of 2015 and whether it applies to the Ireland of today?

LorMal

Canadel wrote: »

Everything about your above post says you don't understand what you're talking about. A scathing and aggressive tone does not necessarily mean, never mind scream, intolerance. Saying "'totally secular' is actually not without prejudice" 100% does scream intolerance. You're the only person in the entire thread to mention burning churches, and only you can know why.

You're very angry about it all. I suggest taking a minute out each evening to reflect and perhaps have a little prayer.:)

Ghost Buster

LorMal wrote: »

You're very angry about it all. I suggest taking a minute out each evening to reflect and perhaps have a little prayer.:)

Take a minute at 6 today to reflect on your trolling and posting style.

One eyed Jack

LordSutch wrote: »

Now I do understand that many Roman Catholics hold the Angelus dear to heir hearts and that this daily event means a lot to them, but should it be broadcast to everybody on the National airwaves, by the State broadcaster? I ask this in the context of 2015 and whether it applies to the Ireland of today?

Well, you seem to be suggesting that it shouldn't?

I'm not sure why you think the year is relevant tbh, when 84% of the population self-identify as Roman Catholic.

How about you ask the question in the context of people being able to identify and answer for themselves what they are?

I would say on that basis that it still very much applies to the Ireland of today.

smash

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I'm not sure why you think the year is relevant tbh, when 84% of the population self-identify as Roman Catholic.

This is just a result of being baptised. Of that 84% how many actually practice? It's just a box on a census form!

OldGoat

84% is not all inclusive and THAT is the issue.

One eyed Jack

smash wrote: »

This is just a result of being baptised. Of that 84% how many actually practice? It's just a box on a census form!

It doesn't matter how many actually practice, or how they practice, or any of the rest of it. This isn't just a result of them being baptised, it's a result of asking adults to answer a simple bloody question on a census form, and because their answers don't suit you - "oh how many of them actually practice?", as though that's at all relevant.

I've also seen it put forward that maybe these same grown adults who were able to answer every other question on the census form, must have misunderstood this particular question - so, they're not religious, they're just stupid.

You can see the problem there - you wouldn't want to be depending upon those same adults then to answer the question to your liking if they were ever asked about the angelus. They might misunderstand the question then too, because 84% of the Irish population in 2015 aren't religious, they're just stupid.

That's pretty damning.

VinLieger

smash wrote: »

This is just a result of being baptised. Of that 84% how many actually practice? It's just a box on a census form!

Exactly, not a lot by the churches own admission is the answer

LordSutch

One eyed Jack wrote: »

...because 84% of the Irish population in 2015 aren't religious, they're just stupid.

That's pretty damning.

Has it occured to you that many religious people who are of firm Christian belief may not buy into the bells of the Angelus?
It is after all an 'add on' to the true teaching of Christianity.

smash

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It doesn't matter how many actually practice, or how they practice, or any of the rest of it. This isn't just a result of them being baptised, it's a result of asking adults to answer a simple bloody question on a census form, and because their answers don't suit you - "oh how many of them actually practice?", as though that's at all relevant.

No, you're copping out with a statistic that doesn't mean anything. You will always be a Roman Catholic unless you apply to quit the church, which is a bloody annoyance.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I've also seen it put forward that maybe these same grown adults who were able to answer every other question on the census form, must have misunderstood this particular question - so, they're not religious, they're just stupid.

You can see the problem there - you wouldn't want to be depending upon those same adults then to answer the question to your liking if they were ever asked about the angelus. They might misunderstand the question then too, because 84% of the Irish population in 2015 aren't religious, they're just stupid.

That's pretty damning.

Can you stick to a point without going off an a rant please. I never mentioned the intelligence levels of those who ticked the box, or how reliable they are.

VinLieger

smash wrote: »

No, you're copping out with a statistic that doesn't mean anything. You will always be a Roman Catholic unless you apply to quit the church, which is a bloody annoyance.



Can you stick to a point without going off an a rant please. I never mentioned the intelligence levels of those who ticked the box, or how reliable they are.

The church actually closed that loophole a few years back, officially now there is no way to leave the catholic church

AnonoBoy

Amalgam wrote: »

I like the bongs. I don't have a religion.

I like the way these two sentences work as a contribution to this thread but also could be describing most students these days! :pac:

One eyed Jack

LordSutch wrote: »

Has it occured to you that many religious people who are of firm Christian belief may not buy into the bells of the Angelus?
It is after all an 'add on' to the true teaching of Christianity.

Yes, it has occurred to me, but you did originally make the point that many Roman Catholics held it dear to their heart, no? Hardly any need for me to qualify the context when you'd already provided context.

Me personally, couldn't give a toss either way, I see no compelling reason to remove it or reschedule it or anything else.

Daith

David Quinn wrote a piece basically wondering what the point of the Angelus now was.

We have people on the other side wondering why it's there at all.

It probably now is a lapsed Angelus which only goes to Mass for a funeral or baptism and has to look at other people to see when to stand or kneel. It probably voted Yes to same sex marriage too. On the whole it now seems representative.

smash

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Me personally, couldn't give a toss either way, I see no compelling reason to remove it or reschedule it or anything else.

You keep saying this, yet you keep coming back to the thread to give an option.

Dick phelan

a Minute of the day FFS, get a life and turn off the tv if you don't like it. Christ sake far bigger problems in the country.

Kev W

Dick phelan wrote: »

a Minute of the day FFS, get a life and turn off the tv if you don't like it. Christ sake far bigger problems in the country.

Mad how people are talking about The Angelus in a thread about The Angelus, isn't it?

Daith

Obviously I don't want to get rid of it. I can't wait until it features a gay male Catholic couple staring off to the distance.

smash

Daith wrote: »

Obviously I don't want to get rid of it. I can't wait until it features a gay male Catholic couple staring off the distance.

Just a full minute of them snogging on a park bench with a baby in a pram beside them!

Ghost Buster

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Well, you seem to be suggesting that it shouldn't?

I'm not sure why you think the year is relevant tbh, when 84% of the population self-identify as Roman Catholic.

How about you ask the question in the context of people being able to identify and answer for themselves what they are?

I would say on that basis that it still very much applies to the Ireland of today.

A large part of that 84% are under 18 and so have been identified as catholic and not self identified...just so you know..

One eyed Jack

smash wrote: »

No, you're copping out with a statistic that doesn't mean anything. You will always be a Roman Catholic unless you apply to quit the church, which is a bloody annoyance.

If that statistic meant nothing, then why do some people get so up in arms about the fact that it could be so high as to make no sense to them because it doesn't correlate with mass attendance? Here's the thing - it doesn't have to. That's what's irrelevant. The statistics speak for themselves, and if this were any other issue, you wouldn't nearly be so adamant about pulling those statistics apart.

There's no arguing with a figure that high that people were identifying for themselves, and 84% of 6.5 billion people, identify as Roman Catholic in Ireland in 2015.

Can you stick to a point without going off an a rant please. I never mentioned the intelligence levels of those who ticked the box, or how reliable they are.

A bit rich asking me to stick to the point when you try to question how many of those 84% who identify as Roman Catholic actually attend mass! You clearly can't see the correlation I made between the same people you might hoping would join you in campaigning to remove the angelus, are the same people who couldn't tick the "correct" box apparently on a census form.

That doesn't sound to me like any campaign off to a good start.

VinLieger

Ghost Buster wrote: »

A large part of that 84% are under 18 and so have been identified as catholic and not self identified...just so you know..

Also baptised against their will, just sayin

Ghost Buster

Dick phelan wrote: »

a Minute of the day FFS, get a life and turn off the tv if you don't like it. Christ sake far bigger problems in the country.

So by this logic we find out the biggest problem in the country and only ever address that. Gotcha.

Daith

One eyed Jack wrote: »

There's no arguing with a figure that high that people were identifying for themselves, and 84% of 6.5 billion people, identify as Roman Catholic in Ireland in 2015.
.

No not all people were identifying for themselves.

Again when you have people like David Quinn who is very much a Catholic to the core wondering what the point of the revamped Angelus is now clearly relying on census stats doesn't mean much.

One eyed Jack

Ghost Buster wrote: »

A large part of that 84% are under 18 and so have been identified as catholic and not self identified...just so you know..

A large part you say? Would you care to quantify what you call large, should be easy enough to get the figures for the census for the number of 18 year olds who's parents / guardians advocate on their behalf.

smash

One eyed Jack wrote: »

There's no arguing with a figure that high that people were identifying for themselves, and 84% of 6.5 billion people, identify as Roman Catholic in Ireland in 2015.

the Republic of Ireland has a population of less than 4.9 million. A good portion of that are under 18 so can not declare anything themselves in a census.

Everything else you said is just rabble.

Ghost Buster

One eyed Jack wrote: »

A large part you say? Would you care to quantify what you call large, should be easy enough to get the figures for the census for the number of 18 year olds who's parents / guardians advocate on their behalf.

No I dont care to. Im not being scientifically precise here for the sake of your pedantry. I am merely pointing out that of that 84% a large quantity have the census questions answered for them by their parents. Im not wrong but hey if you want a figure for some point you will come back with then heres this

Ghost Buster

smash wrote: »

the Republic of Ireland has a population of less than 4.9 million. A good portion of that are under 18 so can not declare anything themselves in a census.

Everything else you said is just rabble.

BUT WE NEED A PRECISE FIGURE!!!!!!!!!!:p

smash

One eyed Jack wrote: »

A large part you say? Would you care to quantify what you call large

2011 are the figures available. Over a quarter are 19 or younger. You can't specify up to 18.

Enumerated Population by Age Group, Census Year 2011:
19 years and younger: 1,262,609
All ages: 4,588,252

digger58

The ultimate solution, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwxSlDg-0DQ

Cat gets fed,
I have a laugh,
Holy people can pray,
Others can reflect,
QED

Daith

smash wrote: »

2011 are the figures available. Over a quarter are 19 or younger. You can't specify up to 18.

Enumerated Population by Age Group, Census Year 2011:
19 years and younger: 1,262,609
All ages: 4,588,252

Even then it doesn't matter! 84% on a Census from 2011 doesn't equate to 84% wanting to keep the Angelus as it is now.

One eyed Jack

Daith wrote: »

Even then it doesn't matter! 84% on a Census from 2011 doesn't equate to 84% wanting to keep the Angelus as it is now.

No, it doesn't, and so the angelus remains where it is. Now I don't know, nor do I care where David Quinn pulls his figures from, nor how he came up with them, nor do I care enough to ask him, but I will ask here - has anyone here ever been asked if they would like the angelus removed from programming?

I haven't. Anyone else?

Daith

One eyed Jack wrote: »

No, it doesn't, and so the angelus remains where it is. Now I don't know, nor do I care where David Quinn pulls his figures from, nor how he came up with them, nor do I care enough to ask him, but I will ask here - has anyone here ever been asked if they would like the angelus removed from programming?

I haven't. Anyone else?

So basically lets ignore the Census stats now and you'll move to another thing. Grand.

LordSutch

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Yes, it has occurred to me, but you did originally make the point that many Roman Catholics held it dear to their heart, no? Hardly any need for me to qualify the context when you'd already provided context.

Me personally, couldn't give a toss either way, I see no compelling reason to remove it or reschedule it or anything else.

Oh gosh, you are getting more and more prickly on the subject, yet you say you couldn't toss either way :cool:

My main argument is in post # 408 so I'll leave it at that.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=97539703&postcount=408

One eyed Jack

Daith wrote: »

So basically lets ignore the Census stats now and you'll move to another thing. Grand.

No, let's not ignore the census stats then, I mean, that is unless you're willing to acknowledge that 84% of the Irish population identify as Roman Catholic, and their parents or guardians fill out the census on their children's behalf, and none of those children are liable to pay for the tv licence in the household, so their opinion with regard to what RTE choose to broadcast is completely irrelevant really, no matter how they identify or are counted in the census.

(and that'd be a quarter of the population, which if we were even to subtract that from the census figures: 84 - 25 = 59%, so still talking plenty of adults who identify as Roman Catholic, who are liable for the television license if they have a television in the household)

smash

One eyed Jack wrote: »

No, let's not ignore the census stats then, I mean, that is unless you're willing to acknowledge that 84% of the Irish population identify as Roman Catholic, and their parents or guardians fill out the census on their children's behalf, and none of those children are liable to pay for the tv licence in the household, so their opinion with regard to what RTE choose to broadcast is completely irrelevant really, no matter how they identify or are counted in the census.

(and that'd be a quarter of the population, which if we were even to subtract that from the census figures: 84 - 25 = 59%, so still talking plenty of adults who identify as Roman Catholic, who are liable for the television license if they have a television in the household)

84% of 4588252 is 3854131 minus the 1262609 is 2591522 which is 56.48% self proclaimed Roman Catholics. This is leaving aside the unknown percentage who just tick the box.

One eyed Jack

smash wrote: »

84% of 4588252 is 3854131 minus the 1262609 is 2591522 which is 56.48% self proclaimed Roman Catholics. This is leaving aside the unknown percentage who just tick the box.

Right, and that's why I asked has anyone here ever been asked would they like to have the angelus removed from RTE programming, as arguing over the census figures seemed to be getting us nowhere fast.

LordSutch

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Right, and that's why I asked has anyone here ever been asked would they like to have the angelus removed from RTE programming, as arguing over the census figures seemed to be getting us nowhere fast.

We hear a lot about 'a la carte' Catholics, so maybe some of those who ticked the RC box in the census do not observe the Angelus?

Just posing the question Jack, so don't get too outraged.

Zillah

What drives me far more nuts than the Angelus itself are the people who trot out ridiculous responses to anyone that complains about it.

- "If this is the most important thing in your life right now"
Do you only ever complain about the one worst thing in your life to the exclusion of everything else?

- It's only one minute, get a life.
You'd probably be complaining longer and louder than anyone if it was "only one minute" of the Muslim call to prayer or Richard Dawkins singing God Is Dead.

- "It's not religious, it's for everyone to reflect"
They're Catholic bells, from the Catholic faith. You wouldn't be happy to sit back and say it's just a moment of reflection if it was, again for example, the Muslim call to prayer. It is religious and it's an absolute joke to claim otherwise.

- "We're a Catholic country"
Fup off no we're not, we're a Republic in which all citizens are treated equally; which means not giving preferential treatment to anyone's religion.

- "Ireland is majority Catholic"
So? In a Republic the majority do not get to trample the rights of minorities. We're also a White majority country, does that mean we can give White people special treatment? Straight majority, so we discriminate against gay people?

- "You're discriminating against Catholics"
No, Catholics have been getting special treatment until now. There is an amazing trend that when you tell a person that you are going to end the special treatment they have been getting above and beyond what anyone else gets that they think they are being discriminated against. You're just being treated as an equal, sometimes that can take a bit of adjustment.

You can't really blame them though: there is literally no good argument to be said in favour of the Angelus, so obviously they need to resort to the above if they don't want to lose their special treatment.

One eyed Jack

LordSutch wrote: »

We hear a lot about 'a la carte' Catholics, so maybe some of those who ticked the RC box in the census do not observe the Angelus?

Just posing the question Jack, so don't get too outraged.

Maybe? I don't know how you'd expect me to be able to give any sort of a definitive answer to that question. I do think your question is irrelevant though, and the more relevant question is -

Has anyone here ever been asked if they would like the angelus removed?

Nobody seems to be able to come up with a figure for that one.

I'm not outraged at all btw. I'm just asking a question, before you decide to leave it there, again -

LordSutch wrote: »

Oh gosh, you are getting more and more prickly on the subject, yet you say you couldn't toss either way :cool:

My main argument is in post # 408 so I'll leave it at that.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=97539703&postcount=408

WheatenBriar

Bring back mart and market

digger58

How very true Zillah, well said, equality is the aim here, if we can get to a position whereby there is no preferential treatment for one particular religion, it's totally incidental if they are a majority or not, then we have restored some sort of equilibrium to our national broadcaster. It's amazing reading through this but NOBODY seems to have said they were asked/canvassed/ surveyed about anything on our national station. Where are the mysterious citizens who want the angelus kept on? Did RTE survey people coming from mass some day? Did they ask the Iona institute by any chance? or did they just decide this for themselves?

DEFTLEFTHAND

digger58 wrote: »

How very true Zillah, well said, equality is the aim here, if we can get to a position whereby there is no preferential treatment for one particular religion, it's totally incidental if they are a majority or not, then we have restored some sort of equilibrium to our national broadcaster. It's amazing reading through this but NOBODY seems to have said they were asked/canvassed/ surveyed about anything on our national station. Where are the mysterious citizens who want the angelus kept on? Did RTE survey people coming from mass some day? Did they ask the Iona institute by any chance? or did they just decide this for themselves?

People don't give a sh1t really, they've more important things going on in their lives. The majority of atheists don't obsess over religion.

5starpool

I wonder how many people who are defending the angelus actually know the words to it? I remember in national school in the 80's being across the road from the church and when the bells went at 12 we'd have to stand up and say the angelus. By the time I was 15 I had forgotten most of it I'd say, and couldn't even give a reasonable guess as to any of the lines in it.

I really would prefer if it was removed from tv in much the same way that the good Friday restriction on pubs should be removed, and I'd be ok with removing the semi bank holiday aspect of it as well to see it replaced with a different April bank holiday, and I was delighted when they removed the rule that forced pubs to close from 2-4 on a Sunday as well.

People should obviously be allowed to practice their religion how they wish (within reason) but forcing everyone to adhere to rules devised purely for religious reasons is an outdated concept, or at least it should be.

I may be way off the mark here, but I'd guess that people defending the placement of the daily angelus would not be as understanding of a similar (albeit more extreme) example of something similar in some muslim countries when the call to prayer is broadcast loudly in towns and cities several times a day if they were there on holiday for example.