2015 MVP Candidates

Knex*

raze_them_all_ wrote: »

Recent weeks where as Cam and Brady have been doing it for 13 weeks now. They are the only two that should be talked about tbh

I don't think Cam has ever played to the standard that Wilson has over the last 4 games, tbh.

Personally, I think Brady should win it. But if Panthers finish 16-0, my money is on Cam.

He has improved his game a fair bit the last few weeks, too, to be fair.

matthew8

If the Panthers go 16-0 then Newton wins the award, end of story. For me though Brady has been very much the best QB in the league this year, putting up the usual stats he puts up but with an offensive line that's let him down at several times this season as well as WRs dropping perfectly good throws. Wilson has had to put up with an even worse line this year, especially early in the season and I would have had him second behind Brady but he's probably out of it with his team collecting 5 losses. Palmer might have the best stats but he just lets himself down at times with idiotic throws into double coverage and the like. Though Newton has been excellent, the question I ask myself is would Brady be 13-0 in the same team and I don't think there's much doubt that he would.

eagle eye

Luke Kuechly should get it imo. Cam is doing a decent job for them but Kuechly has been Quarterbacking that defense and has been exceptional as an individual player too.

Brady for me has been the best QB in the league to this point. Carson Palmer is playing the best football of his career. I'd have both of them ahead of Cam.

matthew8

matthew8 wrote: »

If the Panthers go 16-0 then Newton wins the award, end of story. For me though Brady has been very much the best QB in the league this year, putting up the usual stats he puts up but with an offensive line that's let him down at several times this season as well as WRs dropping perfectly good throws. Wilson has had to put up with an even worse line this year, especially early in the season and I would have had him second behind Brady but he's probably out of it with his team collecting 5 losses. Palmer might have the best stats but he just lets himself down at times with idiotic throws into double coverage and the like. Though Newton has been excellent, the question I ask myself is would Brady be 13-0 in the same team and I don't think there's much doubt that he would.

brady has had a better offence around him this year than cam ted ginn jr is his lead receiver

eagle eye

Franco Proud Dove wrote: »

brady has had a better offence around him this year than cam ted ginn jr is his lead receiver

Really? Carolina's offensive line is a hell of a lot better than New England's. If Brady was given the time Cam gets he'd be murdering teams.

I can't believe that Cam is such a certain MVP in the media when he is only completing 58.8% of his passes.

Brady's completion % is 64.3 which is exactly the same as Palmer.

The TD to Int ratio favours Brady with 35 tds to 6 ints, compared with Newton at 33-10 and Palmer at 32-9.

I'm not saying Newton shouldn't be in the conversation but to be a sure fire MVP is a bit much for me. As I said a couple of days ago, Kuechly is the guy, for me he has been the most important player for the Panthers this year closely followed by Newton.

Palmer has a season QB rating of 106.7, Brady is at 103.8, Newton is at 98.9.

raze_them_all_

Newton is keeping his team undefeated and that counts for a **** ton

eagle eye

eagle eye wrote: »

Really? Carolina's offensive line is a hell of a lot better than New England's. If Brady was given the time Cam gets he'd be murdering teams.

I can't believe that Cam is such a certain MVP in the media when he is only completing 58.8% of his passes.

Brady's completion % is 64.3 which is exactly the same as Palmer.

The TD to Int ratio favours Brady with 35 tds to 6 ints, compared with Newton at 33-10 and Palmer at 32-9.

I'm not saying Newton shouldn't be in the conversation but to be a sure fire MVP is a bit much for me. As I said a couple of days ago, Kuechly is the guy, for me he has been the most important player for the Panthers this year closely followed by Newton.

Palmer has a season QB rating of 106.7, Brady is at 103.8, Newton is at 98.9.

i wouldnt say surefire i just think bradys offence is better you can say brady would be better with the panthers o-line but i say cam would be better with gronk in particular and for a lot of the year edelman. youve also completely ignored that cam has run for over 500 yards and 7 tds so he's actually been responsible for 40 tds.

i agree with you with regards someone like kuechly by the way but iv given up on a defensive player being given a shot at it watt should have won at least one and if he hasn't i can't see someone else doing it

Knex*

Until recently I would have been annoyed at Newton winning it, as I don't think his level of play was there, despite the unbeaten streak, but the last few weeks he's picked it up.

I still think Brady deserves it more, but its going to be Cam's, I feel. I'd personally have Palmer ahead of him this year as well.

eagle eye

Franco Proud Dove wrote: »

i wouldnt say surefire i just think bradys offence is better you can say brady would be better with the panthers o-line but i say cam would be better with gronk in particular and for a lot of the year edelman. youve also completely ignored that cam has run for over 500 yards and 7 tds so he's actually been responsible for 40 tds.

i agree with you with regards someone like kuechly by the way but iv given up on a defensive player being given a shot at it watt should have won at least one and if he hasn't i can't see someone else doing it

I wouldn't agree that Watt should have won it because imo his performances were more individual whereas Kuechly has been exceptional both as an individual player and as Captain of the defense. The leadership has to come into it and it's why the award normally goes to a QB. Cam certainly has been a leader but for me Kuechly has won them games when the offense wasn't getting it done and through both individual play and as the Captain and organiser of his D.

Also Cam's favourite target is a pretty decent tight end by the name of Greg Olsen who I think would do just fine with Brady.

D9Male

eagle eye wrote: »

Really? Carolina's offensive line is a hell of a lot better than New England's. If Brady was given the time Cam gets he'd be murdering teams.

I can't believe that Cam is such a certain MVP in the media when he is only completing 58.8% of his passes.

Brady's completion % is 64.3 which is exactly the same as Palmer.

The TD to Int ratio favours Brady with 35 tds to 6 ints, compared with Newton at 33-10 and Palmer at 32-9.

I'm not saying Newton shouldn't be in the conversation but to be a sure fire MVP is a bit much for me. As I said a couple of days ago, Kuechly is the guy, for me he has been the most important player for the Panthers this year closely followed by Newton.

Palmer has a season QB rating of 106.7, Brady is at 103.8, Newton is at 98.9.

I know you know this, but when talking statistics, we should note that Cam has 7 rushing touchdowns, 47 rushing first downs, 580 rushing yards at 4.9 YPA.

I don't agree that Cam should be a shoo-in for the award, but quoting his passing rating is not going to do him justice when he is more of a dual-threat QB than the other two.

For what it is worth, I would find it very hard to pick between the three. Brady's OL has not been good this year, and his numbers are staggering considering his lack of offensive weapons.

nasty_crash

Cam has to win it - who is he throwing too - Ted Ginn - Devin Fuchess! Brady has been class too and has injuries to get over - edelman etc. Panthers lost Benjamin at the start of the year - stewart out last week - and not having a wide reciever core as initially strong as NE. They both have Solid TE's to start with Gronk being better than Olsen but Olsen is having a good year. Brady will be just behind Cam but if Panthers go 16-0 there is no way he is not going to win MVP

eagle eye

D9Male wrote: »

I know you know this, but when talking statistics, we should note that Cam has 7 rushing touchdowns, 47 rushing first downs, 580 rushing yards at 4.9 YPA.

I don't agree that Cam should be a shoo-in for the award, but quoting his passing rating is not going to do him justice when he is more of a dual-threat QB than the other two.

For what it is worth, I would find it very hard to pick between the three. Brady's OL has not been good this year, and his numbers are staggering considering his lack of offensive weapons.

Yeah I'm well aware of what Cam has done on the ground but I'm just pointing out how far behind the other two he is in the passing department.

Again I think Kuechly should be MVP but sadly that is never going to happen.

eagle eye

eagle eye wrote: »

I wouldn't agree that Watt should have won it because imo his performances were more individual whereas Kuechly has been exceptional both as an individual player and as Captain of the defense. The leadership has to come into it and it's why the award normally goes to a QB. Cam certainly has been a leader but for me Kuechly has won them games when the offense wasn't getting it done and through both individual play and as the Captain and organiser of his D.

Also Cam's favourite target is a pretty decent tight end by the name of Greg Olsen who I think would do just fine with Brady.

but who is there outside of olsen brady has had 3 weapons this year that patriots fans would argue should be pro bowlers had they stayed healthy the panthers have had maby greg olson and thats it really

with regards watt v kuechly i think its less a leadership thing and more a luke k has far far better talent around him than watt has had.

bruschi

D9Male wrote: »

I know you know this, but when talking statistics, we should note that Cam has 7 rushing touchdowns, 47 rushing first downs, 580 rushing yards at 4.9 YPA.

I don't agree that Cam should be a shoo-in for the award, but quoting his passing rating is not going to do him justice when he is more of a dual-threat QB than the other two.

For what it is worth, I would find it very hard to pick between the three. Brady's OL has not been good this year, and his numbers are staggering considering his lack of offensive weapons.

Brady also has 3 rushing TD's if you want to throw them into the mix too.

Franco Proud Dove wrote: »

but who is there outside of olsen brady has had 3 weapons this year that patriots fans would argue should be pro bowlers had they stayed healthy the panthers have had maby greg olson and thats it really

with regards watt v kuechly i think its less a leadership thing and more a luke k has far far better talent around him than watt has had.

I'm assuming Gronk and probably Edelman. Who is the other pro bowler candidate? I dont really rate the pro bowl voting much anyway, considering the Patriots centre David Andrews finished second in the overall voting, yet has since been benched for being crap.

As for Edelman, as good an all as he is, and I do absolutely rate him, you have to ask is he a top 4 AFC WR. Is he ahead of Antonio Brown, Deandre Hopkins, AJ Green, even Brandon Marshall and a good few more what I consider true wide receivers? I dont think so. Would I swap him for any of them? Some of them, not all. It doesnt mean I think he is worthy of pro bowl though, he is valuable to his team in what he does, it does not necessarily translate to other league stats or comparisons. Value to a team, and pro bowl to me are different things.

as for the initial question, I think it will be hard for Cam to be topped now. He is making the plays at the memorable time of the season, and if they go unbeaten, it will be hard not to give it to him.

eagle eye

Franco Proud Dove wrote: »

but who is there outside of olsen brady has had 3 weapons this year that patriots fans would argue should be pro bowlers had they stayed healthy the panthers have had maby greg olson and thats it really

with regards watt v kuechly i think its less a leadership thing and more a luke k has far far better talent around him than watt has had.

You see this is more of it. Name one WR who has left the Patriots after playing with Brady and done well after going to another team? You'll find it hard to come up with one because to the best of my knowledge it has never happened.
Thing is people see what Edelman does and think he is just an awesome receiver but a lot of it is down to Brady and his accuracy. Sure Edelman makes some great plays but I don't think he would be the same player playing on any other team.

Just look at what happened to Deion Branch when he left, look at Wes Welker.

If you go by the draft then Cam Newton has a much stronger set of receivers than Brady. Brady has two undrafted(Edelman, Amendola) and a second rounder(Gronk), third rounder(LaFell) as his primary receiving targets. And there have been injuries, notably LaFell for the first six games, and Edelman for the last five, as well as Gronk for one game.

Newton has Ginn(top ten pick), Funchess(second round), Cotchery(fourth round) and Olsen(first round) as his main receiving options.

I put it to you that Brady would make Newton's receivers play to the level that people expected when they were drafted.

bruschi

bruschi wrote: »

I'm assuming Gronk and probably Edelman. Who is the other pro bowler candidate? I dont really rate the pro bowl voting much anyway, considering the Patriots centre David Andrews finished second in the overall voting, yet has since been benched for being crap.

i had quite a few pats fans telling me dion lewis would be in the pro bowl convo before he was injured

As for Edelman, as good an all as he is, and I do absolutely rate him, you have to ask is he a top 4 AFC WR. Is he ahead of Antonio Brown, Deandre Hopkins, AJ Green, even Brandon Marshall and a good few more what I consider true wide receivers? I dont think so. Would I swap him for any of them? Some of them, not all. It doesnt mean I think he is worthy of pro bowl though, he is valuable to his team in what he does, it does not necessarily translate to other league stats or comparisons. Value to a team, and pro bowl to me are different things.

not the point i was making the very fact that you have to ask if he is top 4 in the afc puts him just a tad ahead of ted ginn jr. or devin funches


as for the initial question, I think it will be hard for Cam to be topped now. He is making the plays at the memorable time of the season, and if they go unbeaten, it will be hard not to give it to him.

.

adrian522

eagle eye wrote: »

You see this is more of it. Name one WR who has left the Patriots after playing with Brady and done well after going to another team? You'll find it hard to come up with one because to the best of my knowledge it has never happened.
Thing is people see what Edelman does and think he is just an awesome receiver but a lot of it is down to Brady and his accuracy. Sure Edelman makes some great plays but I don't think he would be the same player playing on any other team.

Just look at what happened to Deion Branch when he left, look at Wes Welker.

If you go by the draft then Cam Newton has a much stronger set of receivers than Brady. Brady has two undrafted(Edelman, Amendola) and a second rounder(Gronk), third rounder(LaFell) as his primary receiving targets. And there have been injuries, notably LaFell for the first six games, and Edelman for the last five, as well as Gronk for one game.

Newton has Ginn(top ten pick), Funchess(second round), Cotchery(fourth round) and Olsen(first round) as his main receiving options.

I put it to you that Brady would make Newton's receivers play to the level that people expected when they were drafted.

That is pretty irrelevant in fairness. Where players are drafted doesn't really tally with how they perform. Ginn just hasn't been a good player at all his whole career until this season.
Gronkowski is a much better player than Olsen, the round he was drafted in just makes it a very good pick, can't really be used to say that Olsen is better or that Newton has a better class of receivers because he doesn't really.

raze_them_all_

eagle eye wrote: »

You see this is more of it. Name one WR who has left the Patriots after playing with Brady and done well after going to another team? You'll find it hard to come up with one because to the best of my knowledge it has never happened.
Thing is people see what Edelman does and think he is just an awesome receiver but a lot of it is down to Brady and his accuracy. Sure Edelman makes some great plays but I don't think he would be the same player playing on any other team.

Just look at what happened to Deion Branch when he left, look at Wes Welker.

If you go by the draft then Cam Newton has a much stronger set of receivers than Brady. Brady has two undrafted(Edelman, Amendola) and a second rounder(Gronk), third rounder(LaFell) as his primary receiving targets. And there have been injuries, notably LaFell for the first six games, and Edelman for the last five, as well as Gronk for one game.

Newton has Ginn(top ten pick), Funchess(second round), Cotchery(fourth round) and Olsen(first round) as his main receiving options.

I put it to you that Brady would make Newton's receivers play to the level that people expected when they were drafted.

To be fair to welker he was what 31 when he went to denver and had a good first season there, then concussions and injuries got to him

eagle eye

raze_them_all_ wrote: »

To be fair to welker he was what 31 when he went to denver and had a good first season there, then concussions and injuries got to him

He still had only about half the yardage in that first season in Denver that he had in his last couple of seasons in New England.

raze_them_all_

eagle eye wrote: »

He still had only about half the yardage in that first season in Denver that he had in his last couple of seasons in New England.

as he wasnt needed as the security blanket, iirc They had quite the crowd of recievers and TE's then?

eagle eye

eagle eye wrote: »

You see this is more of it. Name one WR who has left the Patriots after playing with Brady and done well after going to another team? You'll find it hard to come up with one because to the best of my knowledge it has never happened.
Thing is people see what Edelman does and think he is just an awesome receiver but a lot of it is down to Brady and his accuracy. Sure Edelman makes some great plays but I don't think he would be the same player playing on any other team.

Just look at what happened to Deion Branch when he left, look at Wes Welker.

If you go by the draft then Cam Newton has a much stronger set of receivers than Brady. Brady has two undrafted(Edelman, Amendola) and a second rounder(Gronk), third rounder(LaFell) as his primary receiving targets. And there have been injuries, notably LaFell for the first six games, and Edelman for the last five, as well as Gronk for one game.

Newton has Ginn(top ten pick), Funchess(second round), Cotchery(fourth round) and Olsen(first round) as his main receiving options.

I put it to you that Brady would make Newton's receivers play to the level that people expected when they were drafted.

i dont doubt brady has made guys better but your argument is ott welker was an amazing receiver he was just old when he left, branch went to one of the worst teams in the league at the time.

also siteing the round a guy was drafted in is absolutely stupid ginn has been a huge bust. amendola had success as a player on a poor team before new england gronk is one of the great modern weapons he would be a monster for any team with edelman its hard to say to much he is possibly a product of playing with brady but if thats the case would you argue he shouldn't get the plaudits he gets as he's just a guy that bradys made great? **** it the convos not even worth having cams a number one overall pick brady was a 6th rounder he's clearly a bum

you could argue brady would make cams weapons better but you could also argue cams size and ability to run would help the pats o-line

frostie500

Brady, Newton and Palmer would all be deserving players to win the MVP but if I was voting today I'd be going for Cam all the way. I don't even see how a voter could consider splitting his vote. Newton's year has been incredible and with Carolina going undefeated so far it's something that shouldn't be rendered insignificant just because Brady and Palmer have been playing so well too.

Brady is arguably the greatest QB of all time and always finds a way to make his supporting cast play to the best of their abilities but his weapons are so much better than Newton's this year. I think that if the Panthers had won 10 or 11 games with their WR corp we'd all have said that they had a good season. With the way that Newton is playing they've exceeded those expectations to a huge degree.

Their defence is playing really well too and that's not to be discounted by Eagle Eye I don't see how you could say that Kuechly is more deserving than Newton considering that he missed a quarter of the season. Fair enough to think that he's a better player/more important overall to the team but on this year alone Newton is the Most Valuable Player on the best team in football. A team that surpassed all expectations and are on course to go undefeated so he'd be a very worthy MVP winner

eagle eye

Franco Proud Dove wrote: »

i dont doubt brady has made guys better but your argument is ott welker was an amazing receiver he was just old when he left, branch went to one of the worst teams in the league at the time.

also siteing the round a guy was drafted in is absolutely stupid ginn has been a huge bust. amendola had success as a player on a poor team before new england gronk is one of the great modern weapons he would be a monster for any team with edelman its hard to say to much he is possibly a product of playing with brady but if thats the case would you argue he shouldn't get the plaudits he gets as he's just a guy that bradys made great? **** it the convos not even worth having cams a number one overall pick brady was a 6th rounder he's clearly a bum

you could argue brady would make cams weapons better but you could also argue cams size and ability to run would help the pats o-line

Just name one wr who has left the Patriots and become a good one in the NFL with another team.

Brandon LaFell left Newton and the Panthers and had his best season by some distance in his first year with the Patriots.

D9Male

I say this as somebody who thought Brady would bomb this year....but I disagree that Brady's weapons are so much better than Newton's this season.

D9Male

D9Male wrote: »

I say this as somebody who thought Brady would bomb this year....but I disagree that Brady's weapons are so much better than Palmer's this season.

who made that argument arizona have one of the best rounded offences in the league

D9Male

Actually.....for what it is worth, here are the rankings of NE and Carolina Wide Receivers according to Football Outsiders:

#22 Amendola 166 DYAR
#25 Edelman 162 DYAR
#70 LaFell -60 DYAR

#46 Ginn 64 DYAR

And Gronkowski is miles clear of Olsen among tight ends....so the advanced stats do suggest that Brady has better targets.

D9Male

Franco Proud Dove wrote: »

who made that argument arizona have one of the best rounded offences in the league

Sorry, I mistyped......I meant Newton.

bruschi

Franco Proud Dove wrote: »

i had quite a few pats fans telling me dion lewis would be in the pro bowl convo before he was injured

not the point i was making the very fact that you have to ask if he is top 4 in the afc puts him just a tad ahead of ted ginn jr. or devin funches .

deluded Pats fans, and there are plenty of them. Lewis was doing well, but pro bowl? Dont think so. Again, that's not to disparage him or anything, but we have to be realistic here. Pro bowl players should be players who stand out above all else at that position and be absolutely outstanding for their team.

I'm not sure what your point was when you consider him pro bowl and I reckon he is a good bit off it in this seasons WR figures (discounting injury). He is a massive loss to the team, but he is a player that works in that sort of system Brady plays and works well. Ginn is having a great year. Do I think he would sustain it over a career? No, but credit him on a fine season.

JCTO

Cam Newton should and will get it. I love Tom Brady being a Pats fan and all but Tom Brady is Tom Brady and although he is having an incredible man on a mission year we expect nothing less of Tom Brady.

Cam Newton is having an amazing season. Yes people will argue his defense is giving him that added bonus of keeping them in games and getting it done but Newton has played out of his skin and turned some close games around. Other than Olsen the Panthers WR corp are average at best but ye know I don't like to compare weapons they have as the players themselves raise the bar. Cam has proven he is the real deal.

Cam Newton, Tom Brady, Carson Palmer would be my top 3 in order. Palmer doing an incredible job again in Arizona. I would have Russel Wilson bringing up the rear.

One thing I do agree with EE on though is Luke Keuchly for me is the actual MVP but we all know that will never happen as is a staple Offensive QB award at this point. I actually think Keuchly is the best player in the NFL right now overall and its funny how even for Defensive MVP his name is barely being mentioned by some. That Carolina defense is built around him and take him out of it and they have a very different season. Just like Cam in that offense. And Brady and Palmer in their offenses.

JCTO

bruschi wrote: »

deluded Pats fans, and there are plenty of them. Lewis was doing well, but pro bowl? Dont think so. Again, that's not to disparage him or anything, but we have to be realistic here. Pro bowl players should be players who stand out above all else at that position and be absolutely outstanding for their team.

Seen this a few times myself and agree delusion all round by some sections of Pats fans. Having said that he might have squeaked a fan vote or two in it but the Pros wouldn't have solidified his voting into the Pro Bowl.