Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2015 - Mod Note Post 7373

beno619

duffman13 wrote: »

Hindsight I is great and all but let's be honest at that point in time there wasn't a man alive bar Welbeck himself who'd put him ahead of the other 3. Welbeck is United through and through but he will never be a world class striker, he's such a poor finisher.

I hate this hindsight line that gets trotted around.

Numerous posters preffred to keep Welback around at the time instead of a gamble on Falcao.

We spent most of last season crying out for a forward with his qualities and have found another one in Martial.

sky88

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

Such bullshít, and the same kind of bollocks I believe held Liverpool back throughout the 90s.

There is no "united way", there's a results business, and managers either get results or they don't.

Mourinho has gotten results in every job and he should be top of the list to replace LVG if LVG is to be replaced soon.

(if the stories about Guardiola to City are true).

United need to stop allowing Bobby Charlton such veto power.

i didnt say it in my post but i believe this whole united way as the same as you. i think a lot of united fans are becoming like liverpool fans and just looking at the past too much and longing for the glory days

Maximus Alexander

It'd break my heart if Jose was appointed. After a dismal couple of seasons, what a rotten cherry on top that would be. Strongly dislike the man, regardless of how successful he is.

bucketybuck

duffman13 wrote: »

He has signed players who are young, talented and hungry. He probably could have spent similar money buying more established players

Even that doesn't stand scrutiny. If you accept that Shaw was a deal agreed before Van Gaals arrival then the only players under the age of 25 signed by Van Gaal are Martial and Depay. Include Periera , or Shaw if you insist, he still hasn't signed a bunch of kids.

The majority of his signings, Darmian, Rojo, Blind, Schneiderlin, Di Maria, even Hererra are all 25/26 or older and basically entering their prime.

Korat

I don't think we really need a Welbeck debate but surely the best evidence of his worth would be his current form, like Chico.

I know which one I miss.

duffman13

bangkok wrote: »

in fairness, Aguero is the only world class striker in the league so that is very harsh. He is a very good striker and when given the chance up front has proved he can score goals. it was a crazy decision to sell him

What's Aguero got too do with it? At the time we had just signed Falcao, had Rooney and RVP there aswell. It was the right move for him to leave, he wanted game time and he wasn't going to get enough of that at United.

He is not a striker that will lead the line for a title winning team for a season. I loved the guy and his performance against Real over the two legs in the champions league were brilliant but he was exasperating. He got into some great positions and fluffed so often.

bangkok

sky88 wrote: »

Wellbeck just isnt good enough for united or arsenal for that matter. He is just not a goalscorer and i dont think he ever will be. He hasnt shown much at arsenal to say otherwise before he was injured.

Yes he was united through and through but shouldnt keep a player just because of that. Cleverley was united through and through as well but doesnt change the fact there just not good enough players.

welbeck played most of his games for United/Arsenal on the left of a 3. He was one of the most dangerous players on the pitch, he stretched opposition defences and always made full back and centre backs run the other way.

When he got his chance up front for united under moyes he scored 6 from 6.

At the start of last season with Arsenal he played up from for a champions league game and he scored a hat trick

He was the leading scorer in Euro 2016 qualification with England before he got injured.

he has this in his locker

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvBLC9NuhLU

scored a few goals for England like that as well.

he always played well for united, yes he might miss a chance here or there like all strikers do, but as a player playing out on the left he did a fantastic job.

Nalz

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

It'd break my heart if Jose was appointed. After a dismal couple of seasons, what a rotten cherry on top that would be. Strongly dislike the man, regardless of how successful he is.

It would be a big pill to swallow, like a super big gulp... but if it was for the greater good for the next 3 seasons I'd take him.

We're coming to a crossroads like Liverpool did in the mid\early 90s. Lets not go down they road they did.

RobertKK

If Van Gaal is sacked as one would put money on to happen, then maybe as stated above Giggs is the temporary manager until Mourinho takes over after the Chelsea game.

I think everyone involved would want to avoid the Mourniho/Chelsea circus as there will be enough of a circus when LVG is sacked.

I say 'when LVG is sacked' as he looked like a condemned man and spoke like one after the Norwich game.

duffman13

beno619 wrote: »

I hate this hindsight line that gets trotted around.

Numerous posters preffred to keep Welback around at the time instead of a gamble on Falcao.

We spent most of last season crying out for a forward with his qualities and have found another one in Martial.

Show me the numerous posters, I remember two or three people rightly pointing out the fact he should be kept as he was a good squad player bit I don't recall anyone insisting he was better than Falcao bar maybe one poster. This place was ecstatic when we signed Falcao.

As for your point about Martial, we will see who has the better career. He is a better player than Welbeck and that shouldn't be a debate

The_Kew_Tour

homerjay2005 wrote: »

who is hoping United lose? aint seen anybody doing this, but if youve come across it then ill take your word for it.

i have seen a few lad say the lose would be acceptable if it meant LVG got the sack, however that is a completely different scenario.

Ya from few days ago mostly. It's not many only seen about 3 which is small, but even 1 or 2 more are giving hints that they are too.

RobertKK

I don't care who the manager is once they are successful, the only bitter pill we have is when the team are not performing to the level expected of them.

Korat

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Strongly dislike the man, regardless of how successful he is.

You'd like him soon enough if he was winning for Utd and pissing everyone else off.

Fergie was a horrible man to everyone else.

bangkok

duffman13 wrote: »

What's Aguero got too do with it? At the time we had just signed Falcao, had Rooney and RVP there aswell. It was the right move for him to leave, he wanted game time and he wasn't going to get enough of that at United.

He is not a striker that will lead the line for a title winning team for a season. I loved the guy and his performance against Real over the two legs in the champions league were brilliant but he was exasperating. He got into some great positions and fluffed so often.

and a year later we only have rooney left of those and he will probably be sold next summer, rvp is finished at the top level and falcao is just finished.

it was a mind boggling stupid decision to sell him. he is only 25 and still has his best years ahead of him

bangkok

Korat wrote: »

You'd like him soon enough if he was winning for Utd and pissing everyone else off.

Fergie was a horrible man to everyone else.

he was actually one of the most respected managers in the league even from rival fans

homerjay2005

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

It'd break my heart if Jose was appointed. After a dismal couple of seasons, what a rotten cherry on top that would be. Strongly dislike the man, regardless of how successful he is.

is LVG not breaking your heart as it stands?

Delboy5

Just seen a stat that we have only won 14 from 33 games since April........

Coat22

Lord TSC wrote: »

Said a few days back he's one of the more credible journalists imo.

https://twitter.com/JanAageFjortoft/status/678889527319126017

Been talking to a lot of people last days.

My understanding:

Van Gaal OUT

Giggs the new manager

Could happen before Christmas

He later added he doesn't know if Giggs is permanent or not. My guess is Giggs takes Stoke and Chelsea, and then Jose in after the Chelsea game.

Can you imagine the meltdown if VG is sacked and Giggs is given the job permanently with Mourinhio and Guardiola available?

Hopefully its Giggs to the end of the season and then Guardiola. Would have loved to see United go for Mourinihio in 2013 but he's lost his shine since he came back to Chelsea and Guardiola is now available (as he was in 2103 but Ferguson left it too late with his little announcement)

The_Kew_Tour

Canadel wrote: »

What about those who have been proven right? And while I still think Van Gaal has brought some degree of stability and professionalism to the squad, I simply cannot get over, nor forgive, some of the downright strange and unprofessional decisions he has made since taking charge e.g. first and foremost forcing Welbeck out of the club, along with bringing in Falcao, and bizarrely believing Daley Blind is integral to a side looking to challenge for top 4, never mind the title. Aside from Wenger, the best manager in the premier league is Pochetinno, and failing landing Guardiola, I'd love if he was approached with the option of taking over at the end of this season.

I'm not sure how answer first part. I have no problem coming in saying they were proven right, but 1 poster even went to being "delighted"

It's a mentality I hate, that's all.

I mean I roared "O Neill out"in Upper South Stand, after Scotland game,much to my shame, but sure glad it's different

RobertKK

homerjay2005 wrote: »

is LVG not breaking your heart as it stands?

He should be.

Most people would back Stoke to beat us at this stage for a number of reasons - they are at home, they play much better football, better form and they look like a team.

duffman13

bucketybuck wrote: »

Even that doesn't stand scrutiny. If you accept that Shaw was a deal agreed before Van Gaals arrival then the only players under the age of 25 signed by Van Gaal are Martial and Depay. Include Periera , or Shaw if you insist, he still hasn't signed a bunch of kids.

The majority of his signings, Darmian, Rojo, Blind, Schneiderlin, Di Maria, even Hererra are all 25/26 or older and basically entering their prime.

Darmian Schneiderlin and Herrera could all be mainstays in that team for the next 7 years, along with Martial and Depay.

De Gea
Darmian Jones Smalling Shaw
Winger Schneiderlin Herrera Depay
Perreira
Martial

We need a winger but in four years time that could be the way we line out and all of those players will be near there prime. I feel we are building long term, I understand you don't but I like the fact he seems to be thinking long term.

Would you replace him with Mourinho or Giggs now if you could because that seems to be our choice?

duffman13

bangkok wrote: »

and a year later we only have rooney left of those and he will probably be sold next summer, rvp is finished at the top level and falcao is just finished.

it was a mind boggling stupid decision to sell him. he is only 25 and still has his best years ahead of him

Look, you can stand over it cause I remember you being vocal at the time saying it was stupid to sell him however the concensus among this forum and others was it was the right move. I stand over it because nobody could have seen how poor Falcao was going to be.

Also Welbeck still hasn't exactly come good yet for Arsenal.

brinty

duffman13 wrote: »

Look, you can stand over it cause I remember you being vocal at the time saying it was stupid to sell him however the concensus among this forum and others was it was the right move. I stand over it because nobody could have seen how poor Falcao was going to be.

Also Welbeck still hasn't exactly come good yet for Arsenal.

Exactly this, Welbeck has been a let down thus far, even the most ardent of Arsenal fans will agree with that.

Coat22

duffman13 wrote: »

Look, you can stand over it cause I remember you being vocal at the time saying it was stupid to sell him however the concensus among this forum and others was it was the right move. I stand over it because nobody could have seen how poor Falcao was going to be.

Also Welbeck still hasn't exactly come good yet for Arsenal.

I think the majority one here definitely thought it was madness selling him and to Arsenal of all clubs (who most assumed would be battling United for the 4th CL spot).

I was never a Wellbeck fan. Like plenty before and since he just wasn't up to the standard required. He'll always have his moments as he's a decent footballer but he's next move will be to a mid table side at best.

The_Kew_Tour

I remember having heated debate about Welbeck here few years ago. Me in the " he ain't good enough corner", but he showed his worth as backup after Madrid games and was one of few bright lights in Moyes season

Showed a great attitude, in a poor season and would wish him well, was little disappointed when he left, but we replaced him with Falcao, it's hard to ignore, even if that was disaster

RobertKK

Welbeck has a great attitude, but he is not prolific and could easily miss an open goal when it is easier to score.

onemorechance

M!Ck^ wrote: »

How can Jose agree a deal. But then the Sun turns around and says if LVG has one last chance?

So if utd beat stoke then they turn around and say "hey jose on second thoughts no that deal is void because we beat stoke"

The article suggests that Woodward has been in contact with Mourinho to sound out his interest. Many other articles have indicated that Mourinho's agent has been sounding out interest amongst clubs anyway.

It's quite plausible Woodward has asked if he would take over should the job become available; Mourinho could agree to that, although he is not likely to agree to wait indefinitely. Another article stated that Woodward speaks with the Glazers daily so possibly he wanted to have this info for today's call.

Mourinho, having dealt with the likes of Abromovich knows that it's up the the Glazers and that he has to wait for them to decide. I think that the Stoke game will at best (for Van Gaal) delay the axe, should they win, but likely will result in the axe if they lose.

If Van Gaal survives the day; he'll survive until the Stoke game at least, but I think he's gone sooner rather than later. Woodward is desperate to get big name signings, and I think that Mourinho will be hard to pass up, despite what Charlton has to say. Football is full of gambles, Mounrinho is one worth taking, and possibly he is less of a gamble than Moyes or even Van Gaal.

Chances created by United under Van Gaal is enough of an indicator that they he is not going to bring success. He survived so far on a good defence, but with injuries leaving him without many first choice defenders, one shot on target and one goal is no longer enough to win against relegation positions teams such as Norwich and Bournemouth.

bucketybuck

duffman13 wrote: »

Would you replace him with Mourinho or Giggs now if you could because that seems to be our choice?

I wouldn't let Giggs anywhere near the job, we need a manager not a romantic ideal.

I would have preferred Mourinho to replace Fergie, but the circumstances are different now so its less of a sure call. I think United need to think long and hard before passing on him even with full knowledge of any potential baggage.

Van Gaal is a busted flush and if he stays until the end of next season it will be 4 years without a meaningful title challenge. Then if we persist with this "United way" crap we can expect another few seasons of the next manager doing the whole "transition" thing and then its 5/6 seasons without a challenge and by that point we could easily have become what we always feared, another Liverpool.

We messed about and tried to appoint managers thinking long term and it hasn't worked out to this point. Mourinho is what he is, but if he comes in, spends the right money and wins a title then we should take that for now. Take another title, let it re-establish us in the natural order of things and then after Mourinho we will have some breathing space to once again look longer term.

We can't go 6/7 years without a title, sometimes you just have to suck it up for a while and take the easy option.

homerjay2005

ive no problem with Welbeck leaving, i think his time was up and the money we got for him was great.

wouldnt hold that against LVG at all, its whats happened since that i have the problems with.

Cantona's Collars

https://twitter.com/JanAageFjortoft/status/678889527319126017

Jan Aage Fjortoft
✔
@JanAageFjortoft

Been talking to a lot of people last days.

My understanding:

Van Gaal OUT

Giggs the new manager

Could happen before Christmas

He had a different story the other day.

KH25

Am I the only one who doesn't like the comments going around from Jones about how the team was worse under Moyes? There's something about him pointing the finger at Moyes that I find unnecessarily disrespectful.

Trigger

zerks wrote: »

https://twitter.com/JanAageFjortoft/status/678889527319126017

Jan Aage Fjortoft
✔
@JanAageFjortoft



He had a different story the other day.

He had the same story on the previous page

:pac:

IamtheWalrus

I think the 'contact with Jose' stories are too easy. There's no substance to them apart from guessing. LVG doing crap, Jose available, must be contact, let's print it.

Maximus Alexander

homerjay2005 wrote: »

is LVG not breaking your heart as it stands?

Sure, but in a totally different way. I don't dislike him.

sky88

bangkok wrote: »

welbeck played most of his games for United/Arsenal on the left of a 3. He was one of the most dangerous players on the pitch, he stretched opposition defences and always made full back and centre backs run the other way.

When he got his chance up front for united under moyes he scored 6 from 6.

At the start of last season with Arsenal he played up from for a champions league game and he scored a hat trick

He was the leading scorer in Euro 2016 qualification with England before he got injured.

he has this in his locker

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvBLC9NuhLU

scored a few goals for England like that as well.

he always played well for united, yes he might miss a chance here or there like all strikers do, but as a player playing out on the left he did a fantastic job.

Playing on the left of 3 doesn't mean anything compared to his finishing. if he was a goalscorer he wouldn't have missed the chances he has for united and arsenal. The reason he didn't plat through the middle for united or arsenal except when theirs injury's is cause he is not a goalscorer.

Granted his english record is good but hasnt shown that form for either of his clubs.

FatherTed

I'd get Sparky in.

Lovely Bloke

FatherTed wrote: »

I'd get Sparky in.

rofl

Flint Fredstone

FatherTed wrote: »

I'd get Sparky in.

Please tell me that's your pet name for Guardiola or Ancelotti?

Korat

bangkok wrote: »

he was actually one of the most respected managers in the league even from rival fans

Through gritted teeth until he became like an extended member of the royal family and you criticised him at your peril. I loved to see him get away with it, but it's true he was a nasty spiteful character at times.

Any Irish Utd fan has plenty of Liverpool fans in their circle of friends, you knew that often they were right in what they were saying about him but the way he wound them up just made you defend him more.

Pro. F

StringerBell wrote: »

I imagine we see a striker come in, and maybe another attacker in the January window. The chances that are being created are being wasted so often (someone wanna throw up an oul shots off target stat? maybe someone who loves the shots on target ones) and good attacking positions are not being capitalised on far too often.

We have 7.4 shots off target per 90 minutes which ranks as 17th in the league, so that wouldn't support this idea that wastefulness is the problem.
Link - that doesn't yet include the last game and you have to do the maths yourself (total shots - shots on target), but it's the best I can find.

This idea that the problem is strikers missing chances just isn't supported by any of the numbers we have available:

Total shots 15th
Shots on target 14th
Chances created 18th (link)
Expected goals 10th (link)

K-9

Graham Hunter on the BBC5live European football show last week was saying Pep always wanted to go to United, seems he has good contacts with Pep. So maybe City isn't a done deal at all?

Korat

Jose Mourinho could be canonised, and all past sins forgiven in the same way Fergie has, if he brings major trophies to Utd.

Football, bloody hell.

Canadel

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

That van boring quip of yours is extremely intelligent.
Well done.

How about Van Gall? Or Van Gone? Lucky Van Goal?

Liam McPoyle

VanGowl?

The Moldy Gowl

Louis van gowl is the winner today.

beno619

beno619 wrote: »

I dissagree.

We see how backing RVP, Rooney & Falcao has turned out.

He's united through and through.

Welbeck started well at Arsenal then got injured also helped to the FA cup last season if memory serves me correct.

He wanted to be a striker couldn't make it at United went to Arsenal couldn't make it as striker so was a part time player at Arsenal on the RW. Score very few goals for Arsenal and now has been injured longer than available to play for them..

beno619

duffman13 wrote: »

Show me the numerous posters, I remember two or three people rightly pointing out the fact he should be kept as he was a good squad player bit I don't recall anyone insisting he was better than Falcao bar maybe one poster. This place was ecstatic when we signed Falcao.

As for your point about Martial, we will see who has the better career. He is a better player than Welbeck and that shouldn't be a debate

I was one, nobody argued about Falcao not being world class.
Welbeck would certainly be better in the systems LVG has deployed.
The question was what would be better 10 years of Welbeck or a gamble on Falcao ?

Martial is class I'm not sure how that is an argument against Welbeck when the comparison was RVP, Rooney and Falcao.

secman

De Gea
Darmian Jones Smalling Shaw
Winger Schneiderlin Herrera Depay
Perreira
Martial

[/quote]
We need cover for sick note Jones... he has been injured for 451 days covering 12 different injuries since we signed him.

irishfeen

Imagine if LVG was given the two games and trashed Stoke and Chelsea

... It would be like something to happen!

Pro. F

Pro. F wrote: »

We have 7.4 shots off target per 90 minutes which ranks as 17th in the league, so that wouldn't support this idea that wastefulness is the problem.
Link - that doesn't yet include the last game and you have to do the maths yourself (total shots - shots on target), but it's the best I can find.

This idea that the problem is strikers missing chances just isn't supported by any of the numbers we have available:

Total shots 15th
Shots on target 14th
Chances created 18th (link)
Expected goals 10th (link)

Just a few questions
Everytime a cross fizzed into the box on Saturday...was there anybody in there?

What I noticed was there was never anyone in the box.

What was Rooney Doing? Shouldn't he be on the end of it? Isn't he the lead striker?