Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2015 - Mod Note Post 7373

Lord TSC

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Not sure thats true at all.

Would Giggs not be a kinda similar appointment to Pep for Barca in 2008? That was a fair old punt. Or Enrique going from getting Celta to Top10 then becomes Barca manager (Hughes equivalent maybe). Barca definitely have a history of taking these sort of managerial chances, they don't always go for the proven top class.

I posted my comment right before I went to bed, and as I was lying there, I knew including Barca was a mistake, because as you said, they have taken those risks.

That counterpoint I guess would be that while they did.....Barcelona are by and large a machine at this stage. A trained monkey could succeed with a frontline of Messi, Neymar and Suarez. When you have such an amazing team as they do, who win everything in their sleep, you can afford to take a bit of a risk and appoint lower level managers who won't want to rock the boat.

So while I would agree they do take slight gambles on their managers being less "top level", they do so knowing the team quality lowers he risk dramatically.

United are at a point right now where risks should be minimised. We don't have the team or the back room setup that Barca does, we don't have even one of a Messi, Suarez or Neymar. As a big team, we can't afford to take the managerial gamble on a less successful manager right now. We did it already with Moyes and it set us back no end. Taking that risk at Barca and failing would be nowhere near the level of failure if United, at this point in time, take that risk.

Someone made the point yesterday that 3 years with no trophies turns into 5 very easily, turns into 8, 10 or however long very easily. As a big club, one of the biggest in the world, we should be looking to minimise the chances of extending that baron run and get a trophy ASAP. Otherwise, it's very easily to take a step down the ladder, and as other teams should know, it can become very hard to climb back up.

Coat22

Lord TSC wrote: »

I posted my comment right before I went to bed, and as I was lying there, I knew including Barca was a mistake, because as you said, they have taken those risks.

That counterpoint I guess would be that while they did.....Barcelona are by and large a machine at this stage. A trained monkey could succeed with a frontline of Messi, Neymar and Suarez. When you have such an amazing team as they do, who win everything in their sleep, you can afford to take a bit of a risk and appoint lower level managers who won't want to rock the boat.

So while I would agree they do take slight gambles on their managers being less "top level", they do so knowing the team quality lowers he risk dramatically.

United are at a point right now where risks should be minimised. We don't have the team or the back room setup that Barca does, we don't have even one of a Messi, Suarez or Neymar. As a big team, we can't afford to take the managerial gamble on a less successful manager right now. We did it already with Moyes and it set us back no end. Taking that risk at Barca and failing would be nowhere near the level of failure if United, at this point in time, take that risk.

Someone made the point yesterday that 3 years with no trophies turns into 5 very easily, turns into 8, 10 or however long very easily. As a big club, one of the biggest in the world, we should be looking to minimise the chances of extending that baron run and get a trophy ASAP. Otherwise, it's very easily to take a step down the ladder, and as other teams should know, it can become very hard to climb back up.

I was about to rant about Barca too (and Bayern to an extent have gone with domestic coaches with some notable exceptions) and RM seem to be doing similar with Zidane but your point above hits the nail on the head - United are at a point right now where risks should be minimised - United took their risk with Moyes and it went horribly wrong so now is the time to move for a top candidate, arrest the slide and see where mssrs Giggs, Nevliie etc are in 3 years time when Jose has his next meltdown

bucketybuck

brinty wrote: »

Exactly this Gowl, we've had a string of players like this over the past number of years who've been deemed the messiah who'll make the team sooooo much better and they've delivered in brief patches or not at all due to injury, lack of a consistent run etc....

You could put the names Berbatov, Rafael, Kagawa, Janujaz or Fellaini in place of Herrera or Mata and the story would ring true...

Instead of happily believing that they are all rubbish we would be better served wondering why all these good players didn't work out for us.

You could be right, Herrera might never get a consistent run, just like we never gave Nani, Hernandez or Kagawa a consistent run. We stick them on the bench then throw them in for a game or a half here and there, we never give them a run of games and we never give them the same starting position twice and at the end of it all we wonder why they didn't work out for us. It is indeed a mystery.

Herrera has shown in patches that we can be far, far better with him in the team and still thats all he gets, patches. Maybe if Van Gaal would stop ****ing him around and play him regularly we wouldn't be throwing him on the pile of "players who didn't make it".

homerjay2005

Ander Herrera is a fine player, when he is in the team we tend to play much better football, to say otherwise is complete nonsense.

people like him because of his talent, not because they want to have a pop at LVG or for any other reason.

Andersonisgod

StringerBell wrote: »

Your claim is that at the time Barcelona appointed Pep Atletico were better then every team in England, a true match for Barca and Madrid and it was a 3 horse race for the title, that themselves Madrid and Barca were at the time 3 of the best 5 or 6 teams in Europe.

Cause your post holds zero relevance otherwise. We can get into the inaccuracy of it after that.

Actually at the time Barcelona appointed Pep it was a one horse race, and that horse wasn't Barcelona. When Barcelona appointed Pep, Barça were 17 points behind Real Madrid. Hindsight says "oh but Pep had Xavi and Messi, however when he took over the side the main man at the club was a Ronaldinho who, while being a sublime talent, had become a poisonous influence and who had the potential to drag Messi down with him having taken the young Argentine under his wing. Another key influence was Eto'o, whose feud with Ronaldinho had divided the squad in 2. Meanwhile Puyol is burnt out trying to reconcile all around him. Xavi is about to leave, he's had enough and both Man Utd and Bayern Munich are attractive propositions.

I mean you can add the backdrop that all of this takes place against too, a time in European football where Mourinho's rigid, specialised style of football is the reference point. Indeed Mourinho even interviews for the job but some, (Cruyff cheif amongst them) are not so impressed, his presentation is enthralling but his actions are questionable and his methods dubious, he wants to return to Barcelona but Barcelona, instead of hiring the former European champion turn to the B team coach and former captain of the club, a disciple of Cruyff.

Pep dismantles the squad, gone is Ronaldinho (a logical decision in hindsight, almost unthinkable at the time due to Ronaldinho's significance to Barcelona and his standing in the game.) Deco is gone too, another surprise. Eto'o will be sold but Eto'o can see something is happening here, he begs for a reprieve, Pep grants it but he will have to be on his best behaviour. Xavi is convinced to stay, Pep tells him that he will be a key player for Pep, a locker room leader, amongst the core players in the squad, Xavi's decision to stay and work under his idol ultimately will change football. Iniesta, a huge talent but one who has struggled to nail down 1 position or a regular starting place, will also become key under Pep. A midfield consisting of Xavi and Iniesta will be unorthodox, indeed Rijkaard was wary of playing Iniesta in the Champions League final against Arsenal due to his size, Pep has no such qualms. Pep goes straight to Messi, tells him that without Ronaldinho it is time for Messi to step up and be the main player in this team, it is Messi, not Eto'o, not Henry, that Pep puts his faith in, in hindsight an obvious decision, at the time it was choosing a young homegrown player over 2 of the best strikers and biggest names in football and over one of the greatest names in the history of football and former Balon D'or winner. Pep is himself an excellent example of Barcelona's devotion to their youth products, this is not a club with a Galactico policy. Pep will promote players from the youth team, most notably Busquets who will become essential to Pep and Barcelona. Pique is brought back from his excursion in Manchester, the Masia product had done well on loan previously at Zaragoza (mainly in a holding midfield role) and is exactly the kind of character the squad needs, it is also important to give Messi support and Pique was a big brother figure for him previously in youth teams. So these are his initial management decisions regarding personnel, hindsight will show him to be correct, in real time however doubts and concern lay around every corner about these decisions taken by a manager with practically no experience.

For Pep though, the real big tasks lay in changing a dressing room culture where a deep malaise had set in. This was a team tired of success, they had been quite brilliant only 2 seasons ago, the previous season though had been a shambles on and off the pitch. It was clear that the desire had faded. Pep, by removing key personnel in the squad, and his his words, actions and energy, will shock this club back to life. He will not accept anything less than 100% in training as he expected every single person to match his work ethic, his motto "train bad play bad" is on display right from the beginning, training absolutely was not like this the previous season (which saw Ronaldinho not show up to training at times as a result of partying). Pep, by placing priority on riding stars in the squad instead of bigger names, has changed the balance in the dressing room, his key players are Barcelona men to the core, they are loyal to Pep. He has changed the culture in the club.

Philosophy is, by its very nature, a tough thing to truly grasp. Joan Laporta and his Elefant Blau group have tried to recapture the essence of what it is to be Barcelona. Laporta is a self confessed Cruyffista and, for Laporta, it is Cruyff's Ajax influenced philosophy that is what defines Barcelona. Appointing Rijkaard was a brave move and the Dutchman did some excellent work at the club, bringing Barcelona in the right direction but it had become clear that his time was up, his ideals no longer translating to the players performance. Laporta chooses Pep over Mourinho, as Barcelona have long done as a club, he chooses one of their own over the Galactico manager, the appointment succinctly sums up Barcelona as a club and Laporta as a president.

Pep's brand of football takes a tonne of work to implement, it is an ideal, a delicate high concept floating in the breeze and an attempt to snatch at it could see it drift out of reach. Pep knows his players though and this is the club to implement tiki taka (though he won't call it that, he hates that name and what it means). Some of these players share Pep's career path, they've spent the majority of their lives training, developing certain attributes, waiting for this chance, for this moment. Pep will take these skills and mould them into an all conquering force the likes of which football has never seen before. For players like Henry and Yaya Toure, he will take their strengths and find a place for them in the framework because, ultimately for Pep, what truly matters is the framework and not the individuals, in this way he resembles two of his mentors Cruyff and Van Gaal. Pep, with his aggressive pressing game, his devotion to possession and the tactical fluidity he will show in order to achieve universality will change football forever.

It is easy to write those words, I have many times, in hindsight it's all very easy and the path is very clear and Pep had a simple job to do. In real time, this was a mammoth task. Pep not only strived to win, but his desire was to do it in a way that would change football and in a way that would elevate his beloved Barcelona above all others, to leave a legacy. In Guardiola, Joan Laporta believed he was appointing a coach who shared his ideals, who was also a devotee of Cruyff, he didn't know at the time that he was appointing a modern day Johan Cruyff.

bangkok

Lord TSC wrote: »

I posted my comment right before I went to bed, and as I was lying there, I knew including Barca was a mistake, because as you said, they have taken those risks.

That counterpoint I guess would be that while they did.....Barcelona are by and large a machine at this stage. A trained monkey could succeed with a frontline of Messi, Neymar and Suarez. When you have such an amazing team as they do, who win everything in their sleep, you can afford to take a bit of a risk and appoint lower level managers who won't want to rock the boat.

So while I would agree they do take slight gambles on their managers being less "top level", they do so knowing the team quality lowers he risk dramatically.

United are at a point right now where risks should be minimised. We don't have the team or the back room setup that Barca does, we don't have even one of a Messi, Suarez or Neymar. As a big team, we can't afford to take the managerial gamble on a less successful manager right now. We did it already with Moyes and it set us back no end. Taking that risk at Barca and failing would be nowhere near the level of failure if United, at this point in time, take that risk.

Someone made the point yesterday that 3 years with no trophies turns into 5 very easily, turns into 8, 10 or however long very easily. As a big club, one of the biggest in the world, we should be looking to minimise the chances of extending that baron run and get a trophy ASAP. Otherwise, it's very easily to take a step down the ladder, and as other teams should know, it can become very hard to climb back up.

yea you might not win something for a few years but we are at a point now, unlike Liverpool in the 80's where we are such a huge global brand, packed stadium every week, revenues never seen before in football, world record kit deals, hundreds of sponsors, more money than ever before in the premier league, so much in fact that in a few years all the best players/managers will be playing in the league. money will always be there to rebuild, we bid 120m on Neymar last summer it wont be long before we are back challenging for the league and doing well in Europe imo

Trigger

Jaysus I really hope we don't appoint Pep!

Alex Meier

I think Van Gaal has tried to copy Guardiola.

LVG uses rope-a-dope football. . . Just keep passing the ball sideways/backwards until one of the opposition is out of position.

Point is that this can lead to the opposition allowing United to have the ball and result in a half, at least, of possession football going nowhere.

Van Gaal has also not bought great players for the money he has spent whilst ensuring that the attacking line up is poor.

brinty

astradave wrote: »

Jaysus I really hope we don't appoint Pep!

Dave, not like you to come out with a comment like that??
Whats the Matter??

Andersonisgod

Alex Meier wrote: »

I think Van Gaal has tried to copy Guardiola.

LVG uses rope-a-dope football. . . Just keep passing the ball sideways/backwards until one of the opposition is out of position.

Point is that this can lead to the opposition allowing United to have the ball and result in a half, at least, of possession football going nowhere.

Van Gaal has also not bought great players for the money he has spent whilst ensuring that the attacking line up is poor.

People see possession football and they think all possession football is the same. No doubt Guardiola was influenced by Van Gaal, as was Mourinho, as was Luis Enrique, as was Koeman ect. but that does not mean that all of these coaches play the same way that Van Gaal does.

A point of contention between Cruyff and Van Gaal is about the freedom of the players in a framework, Van Gaal's vision of Total Football is a mechanical one, the ball moves, the players are in a rigid system. Cruyff's philosophy revolved around possession to but it's possession with the intent to attack. Cruyff affords more flexibility to the constantly shifting shape of his team, Van Gaal will have no such, the shape cannot be disrupted. Van Gaal has been doing this a lot longer than Pep and his philosophies have always been clearly defined, they do not waver.

Pep differs to Van Gaal. He detests possession without a purpose, early days at Munich, the players believed that Pep would want them to try to play like Barça and so they tried by keeping possession for long periods, slowly shifting it from one side to the other. Pep hated it. One of his first major tasks at Munich was to destroy this U shaped passing that had developed at the club. Pep believes that the best route to victory is domination and that the best route to that is ball possession. However it must be possession with a purpose, possession with the intent to harm the opposition. In this way Pep and Van Gaal differ.

Trigger

brinty wrote: »

Dave, not like you to come out with a comment like that??
Whats the Matter??

:pac: was more to do with the fact that we will have to put up with AIG in here if he's appointed. Nothing on the man himself

Andersonisgod

astradave wrote: »

:pac: was more to do with the fact that we will have to put up with AIG in here if he's appointed. Nothing on the man himself

It's a package deal and I believe you are very excited to have me.

bangkok

I just found out today that a girl I work with used to be good friends/"more than friends" with fellaini when he was at everton and have remained friends ever since.

she showed me pics of inside his current house now in Manchester as well. She was only over there with him 4 weeks ago. Said he got in trouble with the club when she was there for posting naked pics of himself to some girl over in America :eek:

The Moldy Gowl

bangkok wrote: »

I just found out today that a girl I work with used to be good friends/"more than friends" with fellaini when he was at everton and have remained friends ever since.

she showed me pics of inside his current house now in Manchester as well. She was only over there with him 4 weeks ago. Said he got in trouble with the club when she was there for posting naked pics of himself to some girl over in America :eek:

We have finally figured out why you hate him.
This girl has you friendzoned as Fellaini waltzed in with his lovely head of hair and took her from under your nose.


Plenty more fish in the sea

brinty

bangkok wrote: »

I just found out today that a girl I work with used to be good friends/"more than friends" with fellaini when he was at everton and have remained friends ever since.

she showed me pics of inside his current house now in Manchester as well. She was only over there with him 4 weeks ago. Said he got in trouble with the club when she was there for posting naked pics of himself to some girl over in America :eek:

not another one of your friends stories!!!!

is it april 1st already????

bangkok

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

We have finally figured out why you hate him.
This girl has you friendzoned as Fellaini waltzed in with his lovely head of hair and took her from under your nose.


Plenty more fish in the sea

haha I just found out today though. she said he is thick as a plank!! apparently every time he rings the taxi company they ask him his full name and ask him to spell fellaini, she told him they are taking the piss out of him.

was there anything in the papers here about him posting naked pictures? I don't remember seeing anything??

Coat22

bangkok wrote: »

yea you might not win something for a few years but we are at a point now, unlike Liverpool in the 80's where we are such a huge global brand, packed stadium every week, revenues never seen before in football, world record kit deals, hundreds of sponsors, more money than ever before in the premier league, so much in fact that in a few years all the best players/managers will be playing in the league. money will always be there to rebuild, we bid 120m on Neymar last summer it wont be long before we are back challenging for the league and doing well in Europe imo

How naïve is this?

We are worryingly like Liverpool in the 90s - an extremely successful squad that was allowed age together, a tough manager brought in to sort it (Souness / VG) and only stagnating the problem. In the meantime an up an coming rival (United in the 90s - City today). They replace the tough b****d manager with one of their own (Evans / Giggs) and it fails spectacularly. In the meantime their rivals have established themselves and its suddenly 7/8 years since they won anything......

United were always relatively rich compared to their domestic rivals and it did f*ck all for them in the 70s and 80s - it was the Liverpool implosion and Howard Kendles enquiry about Denis Irwin that shifted the sands in Uniteds favour - it could so easily happen to United this time

dfx-

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Not sure thats true at all.

Would Giggs not be a kinda similar appointment to Pep for Barca in 2008? That was a fair old punt. Or Enrique going from getting Celta to Top10 then becomes Barca manager (Hughes equivalent maybe). Barca definitely have a history of taking these sort of managerial chances, they don't always go for the proven top class.

Appointing Guardiola was not taking a chance really. Everything was clearly set up for him (all he needed to do was kick out the bad apples from the end of Rijkaard) and why he's likely to go to sabbatical/Arsenal or City. Heynckes' Munich were the most like Barcelona in Europe in 2013, and duly, he went there. Barcelona knew what he would bring and they knew they had some ingredients for him to do it and he brought them on and brought the rest in line with discipline.

What I see from reading about United manager is either the biggest name or someone untested at that level. United don't seem to know what they are or what they are trying to accomplish. What are United set up for? Are they a passing side, a counter attack side, an all out attack side, what's even their best eleven. It's all confused. If you don't know any of that, how can you know who to appoint to take it further..

Just summarily appointing the biggest name seems like a perfect fit for the transfer policy under Woodward like looking to get Neymar or signing Schweinsteiger/Falcao/Mata.

Unearthly

Andersonisgod wrote: »

People see possession football and they think all possession football is the same. No doubt Guardiola was influenced by Van Gaal, as was Mourinho, as was Luis Enrique, as was Koeman ect. but that does not mean that all of these coaches play the same way that Van Gaal does.

A point of contention between Cruyff and Van Gaal is about the freedom of the players in a framework, Van Gaal's vision of Total Football is a mechanical one, the ball moves, the players are in a rigid system. Cruyff's philosophy revolved around possession to but it's possession with the intent to attack. Cruyff affords more flexibility to the constantly shifting shape of his team, Van Gaal will have no such, the shape cannot be disrupted. Van Gaal has been doing this a lot longer than Pep and his philosophies have always been clearly defined, they do not waver.

Pep differs to Van Gaal. He detests possession without a purpose, early days at Munich, the players believed that Pep would want them to try to play like Barça and so they tried by keeping possession for long periods, slowly shifting it from one side to the other. Pep hated it. One of his first major tasks at Munich was to destroy this U shaped passing that had developed at the club. Pep believes that the best route to victory is domination and that the best route to that is ball possession. However it must be possession with a purpose, possession with the intent to harm the opposition. In this way Pep and Van Gaal differ.

Did you see Monday night football with Henry talking about this? Usually I dislike Henry but that was an interesting piece. Basically in Peps system it's structured til final third then players have freedom to create

The Moldy Gowl

bangkok wrote: »

haha I just found out today though. she said he is thick as a plank!! apparently every time he rings the taxi company they ask him his full name and ask him to spell fellaini, she told him they are taking the piss out of him.

was there anything in the papers here about him posting naked pictures? I don't remember seeing anything??

Can't remember. Don't think so. Don't think it would make the papers. Maybe the lad bible calling him a lad or something.

Nothing I would judge him for though.

Andersonisgod

Unearthly wrote: »

Did you see Monday night football with Henry talking about this? Usually I dislike Henry but that was an interesting piece. Basically in Peps system it's structured til final third then players have freedom to create

To be honest I find Henry a dull pundit in the main, disturbed only by moments of hilariously odd behaviour but he's at his most interesting the few times he's spoken about Pep and I did catch his bit on Pep on Monday night. The invisible line down the middle was quite interesting. I'd tend to agree with that, aside from perhaps specific instructions to forwards (eg. the diagonal running of Henry and Sanchez) and perhaps emphasising the importance of one side maintaining width, he does allow for more creative freedom in the final third, though, like Van Gaal, the framework is key. Pep's thoughts and tactics on positioning after the turnover of the ball are fascinating and this plays into that framework at all times.

brinty

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

We have finally figured out why you hate him.
This girl has you friendzoned as Fellaini waltzed in with his lovely head of hair and took her from under your nose.


Plenty more fish in the sea

Love it Gowl

bangkok

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

Can't remember. Don't think so. Don't think it would make the papers. Maybe the lad bible calling him a lad or something.

Nothing I would judge him for though.

had a quick google and found this ha

brinty

bangkok wrote: »

had a quick google and found this ha

So she sold her story about him too....
Cheap hussy
You're better off without her Bang...
She might sell stories about you to boards.ie .....

I can see the headlines now....

SUN EXCLUSIVE
Bangkok's list of friends of friends includes.......

adox

More nonsense.......


Unsurprising.

Alex Meier

“Sometimes,” he [Mourinho] said, “I ask myself about the future, and maybe the future of football is a beautiful, green grass carpet without goals, where the team with more ball possession wins the game. The way people analyse style and flair is to take the goals off the pitch.”

The curious aspect of this is that, for once in a debate over footballing philosophy, Mourinho and Johan Cruyff find themselves on the same side. They might disagree about what the right way to play is but they agree that Van Gaal’s way is wrong. For Mourinho, as he made clear after Chelsea’s 1-0 home win against United in April, Van Gaal is too concerned about possession and not enough about results.

Paul Breitner expressed similar concerns about Van Gaal’s Bayern. “We swapped Bayern’s traditional style for this high-possession game but there was still no flexibility in terms of players’ positions and everyone had to stick rigidly to his own area,” he told Marti Perarnau in Pep Confidential. “In some matches, we ended up with 80% possession but there was no real rhythm or pace. After half an hour, everyone in the Allianz Arena would be yawning at this display of constant passing. Our game was well executed but very, very predictable … the basic idea was sound. What we lacked was speed and regular changes of rhythm.”

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2015/aug/27/louis-van-gaal-manchester-united-jonathan-wilson

Certainly what Paul Breitner stated above should sound very very familiar to every United fan now. . .

StringerBell

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I am in my **** reading all that ****e tbf

So your post had zero relevance then because you posted without understanding the context what you were posting about.

Wouldn't that have taken you less time to type? Not to mention I'd have probably read it.

StringerBell

Alex Meier wrote: »

I think Van Gaal has tried to copy Guardiola.

LVG uses rope-a-dope football. . . Just keep passing the ball sideways/backwards until one of the opposition is out of position.

Point is that this can lead to the opposition allowing United to have the ball and result in a half, at least, of possession football going nowhere.

Van Gaal has also not bought great players for the money he has spent whilst ensuring that the attacking line up is poor.

Van Gaal, tried to copy, one of his disciples, who learned from him.

Righteo, we'll leave it there so

Alex Meier

StringerBell wrote: »

Van Gaal, tried to copy, one of his disciples, who learned from him.

Righteo, we'll leave it there so

Guardiola is no disciple of Van Gaal.

StringerBell

Alex Meier wrote: »

Guardiola is no disciple of Van Gaal.

Ah stop

Pro. F

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

There is a story about Herrera every few months about him leaving to Barcelona.
All the fans love him and think he is the shining knight to save the team so it's easy to write about and get the fans riled up.

He isn't as good as we think he is which is sad becuase he is reall likeable but I don't think lvg is the villain 'shackling' those 2.

I like the way you are subtly trying to pretend that people are overrating Herrera because of his likeable character.

Andersonisgod

StringerBell wrote: »

So your post had zero relevance then because you posted without understanding the context what you were posting about.

Wouldn't that have taken you less time to type? Not to mention I'd have probably read it.

The actual context you were discussing it in was likely a more difficult situation for Pep to come into rather than, say Enrique came into, where a team with a defined style and established world class players who have experience having won it all have been mismanaged.

It's such a foolish retort "I'm not reading that", it's the virtual equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and saying "na na na I can't hear you" if you didn't read it then you can't possibly respond to me in a way that merits any further discussion.

In any case, I don't care if you didn't read it, I've now got a draft which I produced which I can wheel.out whenever this subject comes up (which is far too often on predominantly Premier League message boards given how incorrect an opinion it is).

Alex Meier

StringerBell wrote: »

Ah stop

That's about all you've got alright.

Andersonisgod

Alex Meier wrote: »

Guardiola is no disciple of Van Gaal.

He isn't a disciple of Van Gaal but hr does he list Van Gaal amongst his biggest influences and rightfully so, Barcelona in the time of Van Gaal, as some have suggested, has shaped football today and to deny Van Gaal's (the coach of Barcelona at the time) part in that would be wrong.

StringerBell

Andersonisgod wrote: »

The actual context you were discussing it in was likely a more difficult situation for Pep to come into rather than, say Enrique came into, where a team with a defined style and established world class players who have experience having won it all have been mismanaged.

It's such a foolish retort "I'm not reading that", it's the virtual equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and saying "na na na I can't hear you" if you didn't read it then you can't possibly respond to me in a way that merits any further discussion.

In any case, I don't care if you didn't read it, I've now got a draft which I produced which I can wheel.out whenever this subject comes up (which is far too often on predominantly Premier League message boards given how incorrect an opinion it is).

Not really, I just have no interest in your diversionary tactics, sorry.

I was discussing nothing, you missed the point. Its ok like, it was late. Till next time oul buddy.

StringerBell

Alex Meier wrote: »

That's about all you've got alright.

Look, there is no way in hell I have to explain to you how wrong your post was. Guardiola has been influenced by Van Gaal, not the other way around. Its not a matter of opinion, Pep himself describes Van Gaal as one of the biggest influences on him ffs

Work calls/

Alex Meier

StringerBell wrote: »

Look, there is no way in hell I have to explain to you how wrong your post was. Guardiola has been influenced by Van Gaal, not the other way around. Its not a matter of opinion, Pep himself describes Van Gaal as one of the biggest influences on him ffs

Work calls/

Well VG is about to be sacked from his second job in four years. . . Some influence.

The Moldy Gowl

Pro. F wrote: »

I like the way you are subtly trying to pretend that people are overrating Herrera because of his likeable character.

I wasn't being suble.
People overrate players becuase they like them.
It's hardly a problem.

Herrera is good, but he isn't the answer.

The Moldy Gowl

Pro. F wrote: »

I like the way you are subtly trying to pretend that people are overrating Herrera because of his likeable character.

I wasn't being suble.
People overrate players becuase they like them.
It's hardly a problem.

Herrera is good, but he isn't the answer.

Quandary

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

I wasn't being suble.
People overrate players becuase they like them.
It's hardly a problem.

Herrera is good, but he isn't the answer.

Of course he isn't the answer but him and players like him being given more freedom in the attacking third are a massive part of the answer IMO.

Pro. F

Alex Meier wrote: »

Well VG is about to be sacked from his second job in four years. . . Some influence.

What nonsense logic.

Alex Meier

Pro. F wrote: »

What nonsense logic.

The point is that Van Gaal has a history of managerial failure in a way that Guardiola does not. . . So I doubt very much that Guardiola is modelling himself in anyway on Van Gaal.

Pro. F

Alex Meier wrote: »

The point is that Van Gaal has a history of managerial failure in a way that Guardiola does not. . . So I doubt very much that Guardiola is modelling himself in anyway on Van Gaal.

So you think the positional play which Van Gaal espouses and has used for decades, a development of which Pep uses, did not influence Pep when he was coming up with his style of football. Even though Pep played under Van Gaal.

You should know that in addition to Van Gaal, Pep also cites Bielsa and La Volpe as important influences on his football thinking. So it's obvious that he's willing to look past managerial records when looking at managers' ideas, as would be only sensible.

brinty

Alex Meier wrote: »

The point is that Van Gaal has a history of managerial failure in a way that Guardiola does not. . . So I doubt very much that Guardiola is modelling himself in anyway on Van Gaal.

Guardiola has a two club managerial reign with 2 of the best 3 teams in Europe over the last 5 years!!!!

He's never built a team from scratch
He's never taken over a team in need of drastic reshaping
He's never spent more than 4 year at one club
When took a year out to ease the stress after managing the best team in the world....

hmmmmmmm

Has Guardiola ever taken a club like Ajax from nowhere to a European cup or an unfashionable side like Alkmaar (I think) to a league title... has he fudge..

When Guardiola has managed for 20+ years at several clubs and has experienced failure (which he will) then you might have a valid point

Comparing apples to oranges and saying you've got lemons to suit your argument is pretty silly....

brinty

Pro. F wrote: »

So you think the positional play which Van Gaal espouses and has used for decades, a development of which Pep uses, did not influence Pep when he was coming up with his style of football. Even though Pep played under Van Gaal.

You should know that in addition to Van Gaal, Pep also cites Biesla and La Volpe as important influences on his football thinking. So it's obvious that he's willing to look past managerial records when looking at managers' ideas, as would be only sensible.

crikey when I'm agreeing wholeheartedly with ProF you know someone is being a troll..

I think someone might have had too much sherry this morning and its not me.. or ProF

Trigger

brinty wrote: »

crikey when I'm agreeing wholeheartedly with ProF you know someone is being a troll..

I think someone might have had too much sherry this morning and its not me.. or ProF

I wouldn't give any credence to his opinion on LVG, he has a very deep agenda against him. And has done since he started posting here again

bangkok

Alex Meier wrote: »

The point is that Van Gaal has a history of managerial failure in a way that Guardiola does not. . . So I doubt very much that Guardiola is modelling himself in anyway on Van Gaal.

Guardiola managed the probably the best team there has ever been and then went on to manage one of the best teams there has ever been in Germany that had just won a treble. He wasn't exactly "put to the test"

How would he fair if he went in and managed United now? I would guarantee he wouldn't be near as successful as he has been at Barca or Bayern

even Frank Rijkaard won a treble at Barca and where is he now?

Luis Enrique won a treble last season and is on for another treble this year and you wouldn't say he is one of the top managers around

most managers around could manage either barca or bayern and win a title in their first season

Alex Meier

Pro. F wrote: »

So you think the positional play which Van Gaal espouses and has used for decades, a development of which Pep uses, did not influence Pep when he was coming up with his style of football. Even though Pep played under Van Gaal.

You should know that in addition to Van Gaal, Pep also cites Biesla and La Volpe as important influences on his football thinking. So it's obvious that he's willing to look past managerial records when looking at managers' ideas, as would be only sensible.

You'd swear Van Gaal invented positional play.

There are many managers at the top who like to complicate the game.

Alex Ferguson, the most successful manager in English football, had a simple "philosophy" in getting the best players in their positions with free flowing attacking football based on a strong centre midfield with wingers with the freedom to attack. . . . Usually supported by the L/R defenders. Nothing complicated. Most opposing teams couldn't hack the pace demanded by Ferguson.

Van Gaal influenced Guardiola simply because Guardiola played for him. Nothing more.

I don't see anything common in how Guardiola and Van Gaal approach football.

Andersonisgod

I really hope Guardiola goes to Man City, my head hurts.

Irishcrx

Alex Meier wrote: »

The point is that Van Gaal has a history of managerial failure in a way that Guardiola does not. . . So I doubt very much that Guardiola is modelling himself in anyway on Van Gaal.

To be fair to the man , he also has an extensive list of success which very young teams at the time...what he did with Ajax is nothing short of immense.

Verdict still out on Guardiola for me , I think he's a good manager yes but his Barcelona team included some world class talent , Messi , Pedro , Iniesta , Xavi no matter who managed that team they were going to be successfull...His Bayern team is the same Lewandowski , Gotze , Muller , Robben , Ribery , Lahm they would always dominate in Germany but he hasn't done a lot in Europe with them has he...

And now he'll leave and take on another team with world class talent most likely City because he knows they are set up best for success , he'll bring in some more worlds class players and on will go his reputation.

In my opinion if the man really wanted to prove himself, he would take on a bigger challenge with Utd and show that he can actually build a title winning side himself from the ground up...show his teeth so to speak then I'd believe in his hype...but he won't do that , he will take the easy route IMO.

It's for them reasons I actually have more respect for managers like Klopp and despite what Van Gaal has become or what has happened , to insult the man and say he wasn't a hugely successful manager is non-sense. It's a shame it hasn't worked out , the style he tried was never going to work in the Premiership , he took a risk and it has failed...we move on.

But the Pep fan club is being hyped up too much I think , he has yet to prove he can do it when the chips are down.