Dog Vs Neighbour

angryIreGamer

Hi All

Neighbour has previously sent us a letter about the dog barking, roughly a year ago. Since then, we have changed a lot of our training habits and how we interact with our dog. After some time work and monitoring the dog using a baby monitor when he was alone, we found that his barking had significantly gotten better. The neighbour agreed verbally when we asked.

During the summer, we got another verbal complaint, the first since the one last year. At this time, we were threatened with the council. We then brought in a dog trainer to further address issues. At the time, my wife was out of work, and was very surprised to get any complaint, as at the time she had been home with the dog and not noticed excessive barking, or much barking of any kind. Also, we had only just come home from holidays, so our dog hadn't been in the house for 2 of the weeks over the summer.

Now my cousin has moved in with us since hes not working and needs somewhere to stay. He also has been making sure our dog isnt barking (bringing him for short walks, playing games), and has noticed that there are several other dogs in the area barking far more constantly during the day.

Last night, as I was about to bring our dog on a walk, I accidentally left the hall door open before putting the dog on the lead, and didn't realise my wife had opened the front door. Our neighbour was walking by at the time, and our dog ran out of the house at him, barked and then ran back to me. My neighbour lost it, and yelled at us that he had been putting up with this too long and told us to get a solicitor, then quickly walked away.

(Our other neighbour, who was just coming home from a walk with their own dog, was very taken back at the exchange, and told us that they thought we had been away for a while as theyd heard nothing in the last couple of weeks from us, and they work from home twice a week).

1) While my dog did not try to jump on him or anything else, i know that it was still wrong and punished our dog.
2) We have been documenting our efforts with our dog, and other than verbal assurances from ourselves and my cousin, cannot directly show that our dog is not barking constantly during the day.

Basically, I am looking to get advice on what I should do. Because of 1) above, I already know that we have to spend more time training our dog on how to interact with people (even though he hasnt done this type of barking at someone in a long time). If we have to show improvements in his barking behaviour, what should we be documenting?

Our dog is just gone 2, and is also my first dog.

Shermanator

Seems like you are taking this seriously which is more than a lot of people do when they receive complaints about their dogs. Most dogs bark from boredom or because they are lonely. Having someone at home usually solves the issue. You could always try an anti bark dog collar as a last resort but it sounds like you have already made good progress with the dog.
Sometimes you have to realise that the problem is with your neighbour, not your dog.

Nody

angryIreGamer wrote: »

During the summer, we got another verbal complaint, the first since the one last year. At this time, we were threatened with the council. We then brought in a dog trainer to further address issues.

...


1) While my dog did not try to jump on him or anything else, i know that it was still wrong and punished our dog.

What exactly was this punishment and who told you to punish dogs to train them?

angryIreGamer

Nody wrote: »

What exactly was this punishment and who told you to punish dogs to train them?

Punishment was he was told no, brought back into the house and ignored/ left on his own for 1 minute.
Are you suggesting there should be no punishment for when a dog misbehaves?

ShaShaBear

Nody wrote: »

What exactly was this punishment and who told you to punish dogs to train them?

Was just about to ask this!

OP if you got a properly qualified and recommended trainer, they would have made it clear that punishment is absolutely not the way to go!

For all you know that bark could have been a simple "hello" and you essentially told them that they should be afraid of saying hello to new people.

ShaShaBear

angryIreGamer wrote: »

Punishment was he was told no, brought back into the house and ignored/ left on his own for 1 minute.
Are you suggesting there should be no punishment for when a dog misbehaves?

A good trainer will tell you not to punish your dog for doing something wrong, because by the time you have put the punishment in place, they are not sure what you are punishing them for.

Maybe your dog thinks that he got ignored and abandoned for a minute for coming in the front door.

angryIreGamer

ShaShaBear wrote: »

For all you know that bark could have been a simple "hello" and you essentially told them that they should be afraid of saying hello to new people.

It was a hello. Tail was wagging and no aggression, followed by a quick return to us.

It is also not the way we have been training him to behave when meeting people.

I understand what you mean by him not understanding what he has done wrong. However, I doubt the neighbour does either, and wont care that the dog was trying to say hello.

Nody

angryIreGamer wrote: »

Punishment was he was told no, brought back into the house and ignored/ left on his own for 1 minute.
Are you suggesting there should be no punishment for when a dog misbehaves?

Yes in general for the simple reason your dog does not have the capability to understand what you are punishing it for. All the dog sees is that it's getting punished but it does not have the capacity to connect the dots between "I did X therefor I get punishment Z". A classic example of this is the old wife's tale of "rubbing a puppy's face in it" in case they go inside for example.

To train a dog you want to reward good behavior and ignore bad behavior and give them no attention when doing something wrong (with in reason obviously; if they are trying to bite someone you'll try to stop them but you get the general idea). This is the reason I asked about punishment because many new dog owners still think you can train a dog by beating them, screaming at them etc. or god forbid they looked at Cesar Millan show (who's a complete and utter failure as a dog trainer) and think it's the way to go. It's also a big red flag in general on the forum which is why it was the first question I asked to try to get an idea what your idea of punishment was (being ignored is an acceptable method as last resort; shock collars etc. are not).

angryIreGamer

ok, thanks for the training tips.

EDIT: Just want to add, hitting my dog at all would never cross my mind.

ShaShaBear

angryIreGamer wrote: »

It was a hello. Tail was wagging and no aggression, followed by a quick return to us.

It is also not the way we have been training him to behave when meeting people.

I understand what you mean by him not understanding what he has done wrong. However, I doubt the neighbour does either, and wont care that the dog was trying to say hello.

Probably not, but considering you have a witness of a harmless exchange between neighbour and dog, and all the neighbour has is a bit of an attitude problem, you have little to worry about. They also need to prove your dog is being a nuisance - at worst I would prepare for and expect a visit from the dog warden. If he/she meets a well-mannered, relatively quiet dog who is licenced etc, they will likely mark it down to a nuisance neighbour.

angryIreGamer

Thanks.

I'm also considering setting up a tape recorder to show hes not nuisance barking during the day? Is there any benefit in that?

Also, my cousin (the one whos looking for work and needs somewhere to stay) and my brother (finishing a phd and doing me a favour) are minding my dog next week cause i'm away for the week. Not ideal timing i know, but for such a warden visit, which we would welcome, would they give notice or just turn up?

Does it have to go the warden before the district court?


Finally (and thanks for all the feedback guys, i'm a first time owner and my wife only had a dog as a kid), what should I have done during the confrontation (apart from making sure my dog is on the lead before we leave the house)?

ShaShaBear

angryIreGamer wrote: »

Thanks.

I'm also considering setting up a tape recorder to show hes not nuisance barking during the day? Is there any benefit in that?

Also, my cousin (the one whos looking for work and needs somewhere to stay) and my brother (finishing a phd and doing me a favour) are minding my dog next week cause i'm away for the week. Not ideal timing i know, but for such a warden visit, which we would welcome, would they give notice or just turn up?

Does it have to go the warden before the district court?


Finally (and thanks for all the feedback guys, i'm a first time owner and my wife only had a dog as a kid), what should I have done during the confrontation (apart from making sure my dog is on the lead before we leave the house)?

AFAIK they do not give notice when they are calling out, but there would be no penalty if there wasn't someone there to answer.

The video camera would definitely not be a bad idea. If neighbour is keeping a log of dates and times of when the dog is making noise, and you have counter proof that it is not in fact your dog or that the noise in question is being exaggerated, it will serve you well.

As for the confrontation, there is pretty much nothing you can do in a situation like that. The dog was still on your property, barked at a passer-by once, and then stopped. An apology to the person and that's it really.

cocker5

OP,

Its not clear form your post - is your dog outside all day and sleeps outside?

Thanks

angryIreGamer

cocker5 wrote: »

OP,

Its not clear form your post - is your dog outside all day and sleeps outside?

Thanks

No, dog is given reasonable access to the back garden during the day (while someone is around) and is taken for 2-3 short to medium walks a day, but otherwise is an indoor dog.

Also, not aloud on the back of the couch (too much trouble barking at the postman), or in the hall. Basically anywhere that you can see people outside the house.

Sleeps indoors. No access to outside at night.

Sorry, a little stressed, forgot to add this detail in original post.

cocker5

angryIreGamer wrote: »

No, dog is given reasonable access to the back garden during the day (while someone is around) and is taken for 2-3 short to medium walks a day, but otherwise is an indoor dog.

Also, not aloud on the back of the couch (too much trouble barking at the postman), or in the hall. Basically anywhere that you can see people outside the house.

Sleeps indoors. No access to outside at night.

Sorry, a little stressed, forgot to add this detail in original post.

So is your neighbour complaining your dog is barking while inside the house??

Or is it just when the dog is outside for short periods?

angryIreGamer

cocker5 wrote: »

So is your neighbour complaining your dog is barking while inside the house??

Or is it just when the dog is outside for short periods?

Except for last nights incident, the latter.

We don't allow the dog outside if theyre barking, after one bark we stop playing and go back inside with them, or if they are out alone we are generally in the kitchen and will again bring them back inside. I know tihs might sound like we are training the dog to bark to get back in, but these are only rare occurrences and otherwise we can play outdoors for 30 mins to an hour without a noise out of him, and the door is also always open for them to come in as they want.

sillysmiles

Surely barking when he is playing with you is an acceptable form of barking, as surely so long as it's not within anti-social hours it should be OK? Anybody know?

tk123

Your dog was barking and causing a nuisance and you've actively addressed the issue.

He barked once at your neighbor passing your house and they over-reacted. My dog barks at strangers passing sometimes and also to people he wants to come and pet him. He's allowed bark at strangers (like a few barks and we tell him to stop) but if he's barking out of excitement/frustration we bring him in for a time out for a few seconds and back out again - like what you did with your dog. Last year he went nuts barking out the back early one morning and told him to shut up and brought him in - my neighbor's sheds were being broken in to - ooops(!) so I do let him bark at strangers and we'll praise him or say something to acknowledge that we're there and are aware that our dog knows a stranger is there - if that makes sense? ie he's not a dog out on his own barking..

Is the neighbor approachable? If so outline the steps you've taken to address the barking, point out that other dogs in the are are barking and walk away. If he's not approachable ignore him and see what happens. If it did go as far as him complaining you'll be able to give your side of the story so maybe start keeping a log of when your dog is barking vs other dogs - in case he's been doing the same and blaming your dog for everything. Get a license for the dog too in case a warden shows up looking for it.

iwillhtfu

cocker5 wrote: »

OP,

Its not clear form your post - is your dog outside all day and sleeps outside?

Thanks

I have that neighbour. :mad:

2 dogs never walked left outside all day in any conditions. Left alone while away on holidays sometimes 2 weeks (these are great times)

I honestly don't know why they ever got one never mind two the poor things get no attention.

OP,

It sounds like you're going above and beyond to try and appease your neighbour.

One thing I do notice with my own neighbour is that while he's away be it at work or on holidays if the dogs have access to the side gate they bark at everything that passes the front drive from cats/cars/bin men/post men if I get him to block access to the gate they tend to be quieter.

Maybe a similar thing is happening in your case.

What kind of dog is it out of curiosity?

maggiepip

angryIreGamer wrote: »

Except for last nights incident, the latter.

We don't allow the dog outside if theyre barking, after one bark we stop playing and go back inside with them, or if they are out alone we are generally in the kitchen and will again bring them back inside. I know tihs might sound like we are training the dog to bark to get back in, but these are only rare occurrences and otherwise we can play outdoors for 30 mins to an hour without a noise out of him, and the door is also always open for them to come in as they want.

Theres no way your dog could be considered a nuisance barker if this is the way you're managing things. Dogs are actually allowed to bark on and off!! You should keep a log record of his barking for the next while, that would be useful to have as your own evidence. Can you ask any of your other neighbours to vouch for you?

iwillhtfu

tk123 wrote: »

so I do let him bark at strangers and we'll praise him or say something to acknowledge that we're there and are aware that our dog knows a stranger is there - if that makes sense? ie he's not a dog out on his own barking..

There's a fine line here though.

My daughter has an unaccountable fear of dogs rushing up to her. We've tried to tackle this in a number of ways but it still remains an irrational fear. So we just accept it and move on she doesn't generally tend to have much interaction with dogs so it's a non issue.

However for someone to allow their dog to bark at my daughter a stranger and consider it acceptable please don't be upset if I find it acceptable to give your dog a boot in the hole.

ShaShaBear

iwillhtfu wrote: »

There's a fine line here though.

My daughter has an unaccountable fear of dogs rushing up to her. We've tried to tackle this in a number of ways but it still remains an irrational fear. So we just accept it and move on she doesn't generally tend to have much interaction with dogs so it's a non issue.

However for someone to allow their dog to bark at my daughter a stranger and consider it acceptable please don't be upset if I find it acceptable to give your dog a boot in the hole.

If the dog is on the owner's property and correctly contained, then you would be tresspassing :rolleyes:

hardCopy

iwillhtfu wrote: »

There's a fine line here though.

My daughter has an unaccountable fear of dogs rushing up to her. We've tried to tackle this in a number of ways but it still remains an irrational fear. So we just accept it and move on she doesn't generally tend to have much interaction with dogs so it's a non issue.

However for someone to allow their dog to bark at my daughter a stranger and consider it acceptable please don't be upset if I find it acceptable to give your dog a boot in the hole.

I think you're mixing up the two different dogs. There's a difference between a dog being allowed bark at a passing stranger and a dog rushing at a passing stranger after escaping it's house.

A dog barking at a passing stranger might be annoying but if the dog is under control there's absolutely no excuse for kicking out at it.

ambro25

iwillhtfu wrote: »

There's a fine line here though.

My daughter has an unaccountable fear of dogs rushing up to her. We've tried to tackle this in a number of ways but it still remains an irrational fear. So we just accept it and move on she doesn't generally tend to have much interaction with dogs so it's a non issue.

However for someone to allow their dog to bark at my daughter a stranger and consider it acceptable please don't be upset if I find it acceptable to give your dog a boot in the hole.

So if a dog walked by your daughter and gave her, or something nearby, a bark in passing, you would assault it straight out with "a boot in the hole"? That's some "fine line" alright, iwillstfu :rolleyes:

I understand the point if it's a dog
(i) rushing at your daughter (barking or not)
(ii) whilst seemingly not under control
(iii) outside the dog owner's property (public park, pavement, etc.)

But that's not what the OP described at all.

cocker5

OP,

Here’s what I think…

Your dog sometimes barks… which is fine he is a dog after all.
You don’t allowed persistent barking and bring him in (either doI... I do the same thing myself)… sometimes he barks INSIDE your property at the postman… (my guy does this too) and your neighbour is freaking out??

Honestly id tell him where to go at this stage he sounds like a cranky auld f*cker who doesn’t like dogs for whatever reason and your bearing the brunt of this.

Honestly OP from your posts you sound like you have done more than most in order to keep the barking to a minimum.. there is not much more you can or should do IMO.

Living in close quarters to people there will always be some level of noise issues.. it’s called modern living.

The incident of your dog running out etc – these things happen… your neighbour needs to get a grip. No different than a neighbours kid running straight out in front of me driving down the road. Modern living means these things happen we all have to be somewhat accepting and move on unless its persistent behaviour etc

iwillhtfu

ambro25 wrote: »

So if a leashed dog walked by your daughter on a path and gave her, or something nearby, a bark in passing, you would assault it straight out with "a boot in the hole"?

That's some "fine line" alright, iwillstfu :rolleyes:

That's not a fine line that's a guaranteed definite if it was in touching distance. Equally if a random stranger walked up and shouted in my daughters face he would get a slap. I don't want to derail this thread so I will leave it there.

I know from previous experience some dogs owners treat their dogs like their babies which is fair enough to each their own. To me they're animals like us all and we all have our place.

cocker5

iwillhtfu wrote: »

There's a fine line here though.

My daughter has an unaccountable fear of dogs rushing up to her. We've tried to tackle this in a number of ways but it still remains an irrational fear. So we just accept it and move on she doesn't generally tend to have much interaction with dogs so it's a non issue.

However for someone to allow their dog to bark at my daughter a stranger and consider it acceptable please don't be upset if I find it acceptable to give your dog a boot in the hole.

I wonder where she gets that from... dramatic much?

ShaShaBear

iwillhtfu wrote: »

That's not a fine line that's a guaranteed definite if it was in touching distance. Equally if a random stranger walked up and shouted in my daughters face he would get a slap. I don't want to derail this thread so I will leave it there.

I know from previous experience some dogs owners treat their dogs like their babies which is fair enough to each their own. To me they're animals like us all and we all have our place.

The problem here is you are equating a dog's bark to a human's shout. If someone walked past your daughter and said "Hiya" would you smack them in the face? Moreso you equating a dog's intelligence to that of an adult when it is probably closer to a child. I hate to see what you might do if a poor kid "shouted" at your daughter!
If my dog barked and some idiot kicked him, he'd be in for a much nastier shock than a bark :pac:

iwillhtfu

ShaShaBear wrote: »

If the dog is on the owner's property and correctly contained, then you would be tresspassing :rolleyes:

I would consider a dog barking at a stranger while on their own property perfectly acceptable.

You didn't specify conditions/location.

ShaShaBear

iwillhtfu wrote: »

I would consider a dog barking at a stranger while on their own property perfectly acceptable.

You didn't specify conditions/location.

So it's acceptable for dogs to scare your fearful daughter if they are in their own garden, but not outside it?

iwillhtfu

ShaShaBear wrote: »

The problem here is you are equating a dog's bark to a human's shout. If someone walked past your daughter and said "Hiya" would you smack them in the face?
If my dog barked and some idiot kicked him, he'd be in for a much nastier shock than a bark :pac:

I'm well aware of the difference between a dogs bark when interacting and it being aggressive.

There's also a different reaction if someone were to say "Hiya" and shout "Hiya" in your face.

Hopefully we won't ever cross paths or we might both be in for a shock :pac:

angryIreGamer

tk123 wrote: »

Is the neighbor approachable? If so outline the steps you've taken to address the barking, point out that other dogs in the are are barking and walk away. If he's not approachable ignore him and see what happens. If it did go as far as him complaining you'll be able to give your side of the story so maybe start keeping a log of when your dog is barking vs other dogs - in case he's been doing the same and blaming your dog for everything. Get a license for the dog too in case a warden shows up looking for it.

Thanks for the advice, only getting back to this now.

We have have the first in the past, so i don't know if there is more we can do. Also, as far as being approachable, he is not really, and has been known to complain to kids in the estate for playing too loudly (seriously).

We also have a dog license.

hardCopy

iwillhtfu wrote: »

That's not a fine line that's a guaranteed definite if it was in touching distance. Equally if a random stranger walked up and shouted in my daughters face he would get a slap. I don't want to derail this thread so I will leave it there.

I know from previous experience some dogs owners treat their dogs like their babies which is fair enough to each their own. To me they're animals like us all and we all have our place.

Just imagine the slap you'd get if you kicked someone's child up the hole.

iwillhtfu

ShaShaBear wrote: »

So it's acceptable for dogs to scare your fearful daughter if they are in their own garden, but not outside it?

I don't see the comparison to be honest in one instance she has approached the dog on it's property in the other the dog will have approached her.

iwillhtfu

hardCopy wrote: »

Just imagine the slap you'd get if you kicked someone's child up the hole.

If said child upset my child intentionally I'd take my chances. :mad:

iwillhtfu

OP,

Apologies I have dragged this far enough off thread.

It's a bit like fighting the tide when it comes to dog owners and their sense or privilege.

Good Luck with your issue but from what you posted you seem to be a considerate neighbour and dog owner. I'll leave it there.

angryIreGamer

Thanks all round folks for the advice, it is all appreciated.

Our other neighbour has often complimented us on our dog in comparisson to their dog, and we are aware of about 3-5 other dogs in the area who bark far more than ours. I think I will set up a makeshift camera to monitor our dog, the other dog and general noise levels around.

Unfortunately, ours is a bichon - terrier mix, so they have a reputation for barking. We are always trying to train ourselves and our dog better (its my first dog, I need training just as much!).

tk123

iwillhtfu wrote: »

There's a fine line here though.

My daughter has an unaccountable fear of dogs rushing up to her. We've tried to tackle this in a number of ways but it still remains an irrational fear. So we just accept it and move on she doesn't generally tend to have much interaction with dogs so it's a non issue.

However for someone to allow their dog to bark at my daughter a stranger and consider it acceptable please don't be upset if I find it acceptable to give your dog a boot in the hole.

My dog is barking while confined behind a locked gate and under supervision with one of us in the garden with him while we're at the bin/car/gardening. He's not left out to his own devices annoying people.

We're going OT here but when I was growing up we knew which houses had a barking dog behind the gate/fence and ran by and laughed when they barked and made us jump. No parents got involved threatening owners or dogs but there was no claim culture in those days...

ambro25

Thanks for the PM, iwillstfu :pac:

Here's hoping your "adult" manner of response don't ever endanger your daughter needlessly. :rolleyes:

borderlinemeath

iwillhtfu wrote: »

There's a fine line here though.

My daughter has an unaccountable fear of dogs rushing up to her. We've tried to tackle this in a number of ways but it still remains an irrational fear. So we just accept it and move on she doesn't generally tend to have much interaction with dogs so it's a non issue.

However for someone to allow their dog to bark at my daughter a stranger and consider it acceptable please don't be upset if I find it acceptable to give your dog a boot in the hole.

Sounds like your reinforcing the fear, and also showing that violence towards animals is acceptable. You heard that some kids kicked a puppy to death in Dundalk this week? I'd say their parents think it's OK to kick a dog up the hole as well.

On topic, OP I really don't think you've anything to be worried about. Even if the warden called while you were away they would see that the dog is not neglected and not an extreme barker. Just make sure the licence is at hand while you're away. Dogs bark, that's how they communicate. Some people just have little to be complaining about.

DBB

iwillhtfu, it is absolutely forbidden to discuss any acts of violence towards humans or animals in this forum.
I would also remind users that unsolicited or abusive PMs should always be reported.
Thanks,
DBB

Sunny Dayz

OP is your neighbour right next door to you? And are there other dogs living nearby? Not trying to take sides but as someone who lives in an estate where people leave their dogs outside at home all day everyday and don't walk them, a dog barking quite a bit absolutely goes through your head if you are not a dog owner. I'm lucky that I'm only at home during the day at lunch time otherwise I'd go cracked! Once on a day off, I had to leave the house for an hour and go down the town, I actually had a headache from hearing a dog bark constantly (it was summer and doors and windows open, dog was still barking when I returned).
Even our next door dog barked so much when he moved in first so we complained to them, the dog doesn't bark as much now but still as soon as he starts we just sigh and hope he doesn't keep it up for long, but every bark just annoys me!


I suppose what I am trying to say it that maybe other dogs in the estate are barking and driving her mad but she associates it with your dog because a) it's the nearest or b) she knows it barks also.

angryIreGamer

Sunny Dayz wrote: »

I suppose what I am trying to say it that maybe other dogs in the estate are barking and driving her mad but she associates it with your dog because a) it's the nearest or b) she knows it barks also.

hi, sorry im only getting back to this now. this is exactly what we think is happening. For example, we recorded our dog this morning sleeping beside us when I ate breakfast and another dog nearby barking.