Nissan XE vs SV and PCP or not PCP

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

You're a great man for future gazing , but fortunately , like the rest of us you've no better idea , what might happen. You could and will most likely be wrong. Your future advice on Esb charging was wrong.

All one can do is deal with whatever one has to hand. today. The future is the future.

So you think people will rather pay more for public charging than charge at home far more conveniently ?

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

So you think people will rather pay more for public charging than charge at home far more conveniently ?

Because of the limited power and hence long charge cycles , home charging will be only one of the options needed by BEVs user to make their cars suitable for all types of motoring

Hence fcp has its place , or greater or lessor importance to certain EV users.

The Esb could have easily bought in an interim discounted rate per kWh at fcp sites. It could even bill back through retail bills in essence providing wholesale fcp units to the users retail provider.

Instead it prce gouged

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

Because of the limited power and hence long charge cycles , home charging will be only one of the options needed by BEVs user to make their cars suitable for all types of motoring

Hence fcp has its place , or greater or lessor importance to certain EV users.

The Esb could have easily bought in an interim discounted rate per kWh at fcp sites. It could even bill back through retail bills in essence providing wholesale fcp units to the users retail provider.

Instead it prce gouged

I never suggested fast charging wouldn't have it's place but the ability to replace 200 miles range at home is a really good option to have.

Billing through retail bills would add administrator costs considering all the customers who are not Electric Ireland customers.

ESB can't bill per kwh they can only bill for use of the infrastructure. Electric Ireland can do this but they don't own the network and not everyone is an EI customer.

Easiest thing they can do is reduce the per minute charge.

Lantus

6kw charger would be nice but the extra for the battery makes it financially out the equation.

There would be ample time for me to charge overnight.

Not sure how I could get esb to install a 32amp if they don't do it?

Lantus

Lantus wrote: »

6kw charger would be nice but the extra for the battery makes it financially out the equation.

There would be ample time for me to charge overnight.

Not sure how I could get esb to install a 32amp if they don't do it?

They probably won't install the 32 amp home EVSE but I would insist on it and tell them you will pay the difference, they refused me no matter how hard I fought.

Either way I would have the wiring pre-wired for 32 amps from the consumer unit to where you want the charge point and get the 32 amp later on.

You can always sell the 16 amp evse or keep it if you ever get a 2nd ev or install it at a relatives that you visit a lot.

It's quiet scandalous that the 6.6 kw charger is still an option on the 30 kwh battery, it's standard in the U.S, stupid Nissan Ireland just trying to keep the list price low as possible !

steelboots

Hi All,

Thanks for all the useful feedback. The more I research the more confused I get. I had a loan of one the weekend and have to say I was impressed. It was an SV with the 3.3K charger.

They are now doing an offer on the extended range battery for 2K until Christmas, but the Sales guy reckoned for my use (i.e. 54 miles round trip to work, and the odd evening run with kids to soccer etc.. ) the 24kw version would be sufficient but recommended the 6.6 charger....

Now with the ESB charging €17 per month for use of the FCs I'm starting to wonder what they will do next. THe garage had a lovely SVE and have to say the sound system was very impressive and leather was nice and would be easy to clean with kids.

Just a few questions I have:

1) How far have you Leaf owners got out of a full charge ?
2) Have there been any battery capacity issues with you Leaf (i.e. as the years roll on are you getting as far as you used to on a charge) ?
3) The Sales guy didn't seem to be aware to keep a healthy battery you should not regularly go above 80% charge, is this actually the case ?

Thanks !

steelboots

steelboots wrote: »

They are now doing an offer on the extended range battery for 2K until Christmas, but the Sales guy reckoned for my use (i.e. 54 miles round trip to work, and the odd evening run with kids to soccer etc.. ) the 24kw version would be sufficient but recommended the 6.6 charger....

It's odd that any sales person would recommend the 6.6 Kw charger but that's good , maybe they're actually beginning to see the value in it.

The 1 K off the 30 Kwh is a good deal and pays for the 6.6 kw charger and I would recommend the 30 kwh because you have more range for a long trip meaning less use of the fast charger, you can go further on your own night rate electricity. And the 6.6 Kw is the only sensible option on the 30 Kwh battery.

steelboots wrote: »

Now with the ESB charging €17 per month for use of the FCs I'm starting to wonder what they will do next. THe garage had a lovely SVE and have to say the sound system was very impressive and leather was nice and would be easy to clean with kids.

No one knows what will happen, and the 17 euro's PM or 30 C/min isn't the end of the world if you only have a 54 mile daily commute, I commute 84 miles and did it with a 10 min fast charge which got me home with 20-25%, the cost is still way cheaper than petrol or diesel.

If you only do a couple of trips a year that require fast charging then sign up when you need it. There is no contract.

steelboots wrote: »

Just a few questions I have:

1) How far have you Leaf owners got out of a full charge ?
2) Have there been any battery capacity issues with you Leaf (i.e. as the years roll on are you getting as far as you used to on a charge) ?
3) The Sales guy didn't seem to be aware to keep a healthy battery you should not regularly go above 80% charge, is this actually the case ?

Thanks !

I don't really drive slow and driving at 100-110 Kph in the height of winter with some 120 stints I would need to be charging by 110 Kms, so after 100 Kms at this speed be close to a charge point.

So say 100 kms be close to a charger with the 24 Kwh battery and 140 Kms with the 30 Kwh.

Summer should see 130 Kms range -140 Kms depending on speed.

High headwinds and very wet roads also have an impact and also tyre pressure, keep pressure up to 37 psi.

Preheating off the mains saves a bit of range also and it's extremely convenient.

The EPA reported the 30 Kwh as having a 107 mile range or 170 Kms but you should see 140-170 Kms.

Having said all this the idea is to top up every opportunity you get rather than run the battery low to see what range you can get.

The 60 Kwh leaf should be available in 2018 but most likely there will be different battery options.

To answer question 2.

I have driven 23,600 Kms since January 20th and according to leaf spy still 100% capacity, though I Started with 67 ah I now have 65 though this varies, if it sits without driving for a few days the reported capacity drops and climbs again after charging and driving but Still I am impressed. Holding up a lot better than the 2011-2013 batteries.

To answer question 3

It's always the case that the more you use of the battery the less life it will have and if you want to "maximise" life and intend to keep it many years this is a good idea.

Batteries don't like to sit idle above about 40-50% charge because it causes extra stresses and the same with letting it sit at too low a charge below 20%.

When I'm off work I charge it to about 40-50% you'll get the hang eventually how long it takes to charge from xx% to xx%.

You can set the timer to charge to 80%.

Keeping it from 30-70% if possible is always good especially when you don't need the range.

NEC have made changes to the battery that have considerable improved it's life compared to the 2011-2013 and just small changes make a big difference to battery life. They could have improved cycle life and /or heat tolerance which would make a big difference.

Because the 60 Kwh battery will see far less cycling it should last many years.

BoatMad

3) The Sales guy didn't seem to be aware to keep a healthy battery you should not regularly go above 80% charge, is this actually the case ?

The leaf control the charging and tapers off the charge very extensively as the battery charges. The 80% commentary came out of the US, because Nissan had serious problems with early batteries in high ambient conditions. Most heat is generated near the end of the charge cycle, as the intercalation rate falls and the excess energy is given off as heat ( simplistic description) .

IN todays batteries, little is to be gained by stopping at 80%, 80% isn't 80% percent anyway. its what the leaf decides to tell you is 80% percent

Lantus

After some hard sums it looks like I won't be going EV just yet. Love the leaf after lots of drives but the car cost alone will exceed a similar petrol based on my mileage and all running costs over three years. Lots of manufacturers are offering zero interest which can save thousands over three years.

Maybe in a few years time.....

BoatMad

Lantus wrote: »

After some hard sums it looks like I won't be going EV just yet. Love the leaf after lots of drives but the car cost alone will exceed a similar petrol based on my mileage and all running costs over three years. Lots of manufacturers are offering zero interest which can save thousands over three years.

Maybe in a few years time.....

Yes ist a very hard car to justify financially , currently Im being quoted a GMFV of under 10K on a SV and the scrappage deal is a joke as in essence you are funding it with the interest from the PCP.

Just buy Diesel, Why would anyone want electric ? it's too cheap to run. Honestly, so cheap you won't believe it.

Diesel is great, all the lag, rattle noise and pollution. And manual gears, Ahhhh lovely driving experience.

Buy a diesel Golf and save a fortune by driving on diesel ! electricity is way too expensive, especially that night rate leccy.

300 Euro's for 20,000 Kms is way more expensive than diesel !

I pay 450 pm for 25 K kms and all that expensive electricity means by not having to pay for ultra cheap petrol or diesel it pays nearly half the repayments, not including tax savings or maintenance.

I pay for a Golf even if it's 450 PM I'd pay another 200 pm in diesel !

steelboots

One thing I think is missed when potential customers are comparing EVs to Diesel cars is the maintenance.

Diesels cars are not suited for short journeys which a lot of people are using them for, as they should on a regular basis be reaching full temperature and reaching continuous speeds for the DPF to regenerate. I've had to fork out €2,700 for a full service, timing belt, new DPF & fluid and a Turbo on a 08 citroen, and if that wasn't bad enough the turbo only lasted 2 weeks before letting me down again (fixed under warranty granted). Previous car the turbo failed, and sucked up oil from the sump and blew a hold in the engine. €4,500 worth of damage

I know one owner of a Leaf and he has covered 60km in 3 years and has only had to replace wiper blades, pollen filters and tyres. He hasn't had to change the brake pads yet, because if you drive the Leaf carefully taking full advantage of the regenerative breaking then you rarely need to use the breaks in anger.

steelboots

steelboots wrote: »

One thing I think is missed when potential customers are comparing EVs to Diesel cars is the maintenance.

Diesels cars are not suited for short journeys which a lot of people are using them for, as they should on a regular basis be reaching full temperature and reaching continuous speeds for the DPF to regenerate. I've had to fork out €2,700 for a full service, timing belt, new DPF & fluid and a Turbo on a 08 citroen, and if that wasn't bad enough the turbo only lasted 2 weeks before letting me down again (fixed under warranty granted). Previous car the turbo failed, and sucked up oil from the sump and blew a hold in the engine. €4,500 worth of damage

I know one owner of a Leaf and he has covered 60km in 3 years and has only had to replace wiper blades, pollen filters and tyres. He hasn't had to change the brake pads yet, because if you drive the Leaf carefully taking full advantage of the regenerative breaking then you rarely need to use the breaks in anger.

It's great having the regen and having no brake dust on the wheels in Summer after 25,500 Kms the disks on my leaf are as new.

If you drive in B mode you can get variable regen on the throttle by lifting off a bit and pressing a bit a lot of people are not aware of this and regen to them is either on or off and it can make driving quiet jerky, but using the throttle to control the regen make for much more comfortable driving.

The only real maintenance to the Leaf is changing pollen filters and brake fluid changes, don't know when the brake fluid has to be done. Maybe the normal 2 years ? It's mad seeing after 25 K kms how clean it is under the bonnet or after a long drive no heat on anything this time of year apart from the heat pump pipes. Coolant will have to be done eventually , probably 160,000 kms ? Coolant won't be a diy job as with the prius it needed special pumps to force any air out of the system, coolant flows through a lot more than in an ice car.

No harm having it inspected and seeing how the battery is performing and it's good to have a record of the mileage while every time you turn on the Leaf the mileage reading goes straight back to Nissan Motor Co in Japan and battery data, charging data etc the average user won't have access to this and I don;t know if Nissan Ireland can verify the mileage that is uploaded.

Lantus

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Just buy Diesel, Why would anyone want electric ? it's too cheap to run. Honestly, so cheap you won't believe it.

Diesel is great, all the lag, rattle noise and pollution. And manual gears, Ahhhh lovely driving experience.

Buy a diesel Golf and save a fortune by driving on diesel ! electricity is way too expensive, especially that night rate leccy.

300 Euro's for 20,000 Kms is way more expensive than diesel !

I pay 450 pm for 25 K kms and all that expensive electricity means by not having to pay for ultra cheap petrol or diesel it pays nearly half the repayments, not including tax savings or maintenance.

I pay for a Golf even if it's 450 PM I'd pay another 200 pm in diesel !

Well the PCP on the leaf was going to be 450-500 before tax and power. I can buy a new petrol, tax it and buy petrol for just over 400 a month based on 60 miles a day commute. Its even cheaper than a diesel because the extra 3-4k for the diesel model can't justify the savings unless your travelling nearer 100+ miles a day.

You have to look at the whole picture and always work on total costs over three years at least.

The leaf is excellent and if you put it up against more expensive cars then it will perform financially. But there are a number of good sized cheaper alternatives and with zero interest that can beat it on numbers.

Lantus

Lantus wrote: »

Well the PCP on the leaf was going to be 450-500 before tax and power. I can buy a new petrol, tax it and buy petrol for just over 400 a month based on 60 miles a day commute. Its even cheaper than a diesel because the extra 3-4k for the diesel model can't justify the savings unless your travelling nearer 100+ miles a day.

You have to look at the whole picture and always work on total costs over three years at least.

The leaf is excellent and if you put it up against more expensive cars then it will perform financially. But there are a number of good sized cheaper alternatives and with zero interest that can beat it on numbers.

Sure, I could buy an I 10 for maybe 16, 17 K or buy a basic Golf TDI for 25K .

My 450 PM includes interest and depreciation of which almost half is paid for in fuel savings and motor tax compared to the Prius or Diesel.

The Golf will still cost me much more PM.

That is is cost me 450 Pm with 5K down and 25,000 Kms per year.

fm

what about the depreciation cost on a leaf,you have to look at the cost of a car over a few years at least to see what you really save not what you pay or not at a pump every week or the amount you pay a bank monthly.

Say over three years on pcp

deposit
36 payments including interest
tax
cost of fuel
standard service
final payment
insurance

Then subtract what you sell the car for-this can make a huge difference to what the car costs over 3 years

fm

fm wrote: »

what about the depreciation cost on a leaf,you have to look at the cost of a car over a few years at least to see what you really save not what you pay or not at a pump every week or the amount you pay a bank monthly.

Say over three years on pcp

deposit
36 payments including interest
tax
cost of fuel
standard service
final payment
insurance

Then subtract what you sell the car for-this can make a huge difference to what the car costs over 3 years

The depreciation + interest cost is already calculated in the monthly payments with PCP so the diesel is costing me a lot more.

What the car is truly worth at the end remains to be seen and this is the case with any car, if the batteries hold up as good as the MK 1.5 are showing now then these cars will make truly cracking 2nd hand cars that are mega cheap to run with very little maintenance, no gearbox, no engine, belts, chains, etc. And currently showing very high reliability after 100,000 miles or 162,000 Kms.

BoatMad

steelboots wrote: »

One thing I think is missed when potential customers are comparing EVs to Diesel cars is the maintenance.

Diesels cars are not suited for short journeys which a lot of people are using them for, as they should on a regular basis be reaching full temperature and reaching continuous speeds for the DPF to regenerate. I've had to fork out €2,700 for a full service, timing belt, new DPF & fluid and a Turbo on a 08 citroen, and if that wasn't bad enough the turbo only lasted 2 weeks before letting me down again (fixed under warranty granted). Previous car the turbo failed, and sucked up oil from the sump and blew a hold in the engine. €4,500 worth of damage

I know one owner of a Leaf and he has covered 60km in 3 years and has only had to replace wiper blades, pollen filters and tyres. He hasn't had to change the brake pads yet, because if you drive the Leaf carefully taking full advantage of the regenerative breaking then you rarely need to use the breaks in anger.

Firstly 60 , 000 km is nothing , I'm not sure why you perceive it's a big number. Ive owned loads of cars , diesel and petrol that consumed nothing other then normal service items all the way to 150 ,000 km and more.

60 k is isn't a big number over 200 K is a big number

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

The depreciation + interest cost is already calculated in the monthly payments with PCP so the diesel is costing me a lot more.

What the car is truly worth at the end remains to be seen and this is the case with any car, if the batteries hold up as good as the MK 1.5 are showing now then these cars will make truly cracking 2nd hand cars that are mega cheap to run with very little maintenance, no gearbox, no engine, belts, chains, etc. And currently showing very high reliability after 100,000 miles or 162,000 Kms.

Do we even have 160k plus leafs , with say 6+'years old, to draw conclusions from. ???

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

Do we even have 160k plus leafs , with say 6+'years old, to draw conclusions from. ???

No we don't this is why I am saying better to be cautious if you intend to keep it, if not who cares ?

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

No we don't this is why I am saying better to be cautious if you intend to keep it, if not who cares ?

Yes and I keep saying , Define cautious in the context of lack of time tested statistical data.

We could be like the guy that cleans his car regularly thinking it makes his engine last longer !!

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

Yes and I keep saying , Define cautious in the context of lack of time tested statistical data.

We could be like the guy that cleans his car regularly thinking it makes his engine last longer !!

No cautions meaning go with the data you have on Li batteries until the current tec is proven or proven that not fully charging or discharging doesn't matter in the sense maximum life of the cells is not necessary.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

No cautions meaning go with the data you have on Li batteries until the current tec is proven or proven that not fully charging or discharging doesn't matter in the sense maximum life of the cells is not necessary.

Bit the current data is not statistically valdated. We really don't know what being " cautious " entails. We do know certain " edge " conditions , like temperature extremes , very low discharges ( prevented by the bms ) , very high charges , ( again prevented by the bms ) etc.

Beyond that we have no reliable body of valdated data. We are only building it at present

In 10-15 years we will certainly have accumulated enough data to draw causal conclusions , but today , staring at makey-up , " health indicators " , etc is just ridiculous.

For example 20-80 % charging , given the bms effectively controls capacity , and typically is restricting capacity tom20 - 90 % at quite conservative charging regimes. , we have no real idea whether 20-80 , which results in effectively 25% to 72 % charging is in any way contributing to a meaningful extension of battery life.

Users can't really affect such issues. We are in the hands of Nissan on this.

The debate is like a teenager running after each heart throb , one day it's this band the next another. Ie 20-80 , or light Usage or heavy short term usage or this or that.

We , in reality , just don't know. We are in effect polishing the car hoping the engine will last longer

There is a lot of evidence to support that by not charging or discharging above 80 or below 40% or other various practices , 80-50 % 70%-30% etc. will extend life, I let people research themselves and they can form their own opinions.

The first owner probably won;t care about max life because they will have long sold it.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

There is a lot of evidence to support that by not charging or discharging above 80 or below 40% or other various practices , 80-50 % 70%-30% etc. will extend life, I let people research themselves and they can form their own opinions.

The first owner probably won;t care about max life because they will have long sold it.

Well I disagree, there isn't a lot of statistically relevant evidence at all backing up that. There is anecdotes, Internet tomfoolery evidence etc.

But we have nothing for our batteries used in our conditions that is statistically valid and we won't have it for a few years.

Remember eggs and buffer used to be bad for you, now it's trans fats.
Let's not treat battery charging like food fads.

steelboots

BoatMad wrote: »

Firstly 60 , 000 km is nothing , I'm not sure why you perceive it's a big number. Ive owned loads of cars , diesel and petrol that consumed nothing other then normal service items all the way to 150 ,000 km and more.

60 k is isn't a big number over 200 K is a big number

BoatMad, where in my post do I say 60,000km is a big number ? I brough many cars round the clock and in one case a Merc C220 CDI with 550,000kms. I only know one Leaf owner and was just commenting on how little he had to spend.

I was merely making the point that when comparing ICEs to EVs you need to take servicing costs into consideration e.g. at 60,000 km a timing belt change is approaching (incl water pump) depending on the car. There would probably have been 3 oil changes etc....

ICEs are complex beasts with DPFs, Turbos, Inter-coolers, Timing belts, gearboxes, clutches etc... thats what I love about the Leaf. In the past 10 years of driving ICEs (my wife and I), I have to replace 1 DPF filter (€700), 2 turbos (€1,300 for one, the other under warranty), 3 timing belts (4 x ~€450) and one engine (€4,500) etc.. and I've had enough.....

I can't seem to find any horror stories with the Leaf so I hope I have many years of hassle free cheap driving .....

BoatMad

I do agree Bevs are likely to be more reliable. Equally we have very small numbers to go on.

fm

Deleted User wrote: »

The depreciation + interest cost is already calculated in the monthly payments with PCP so the diesel is costing me a lot more.

What the car is truly worth at the end remains to be seen and this is the case with any car, if the batteries hold up as good as the MK 1.5 are showing now then these cars will make truly cracking 2nd hand cars that are mega cheap to run with very little maintenance, no gearbox, no engine, belts, chains, etc. And currently showing very high reliability after 100,000 miles or 162,000 Kms.

Hi Madlad,

Yes working out what a car is worth down the line isn't an easy task but can be done to an extent ,Easier with a petrol or diesel car granted but take a 3 year old leaf now will give you some idea.I know batteries are changing all the time but the popularity of a car has a huge impact on secondhand prices.

Have you ever worked out the cost though ????

Interest charges for example on a pcp plan on a leaf versus say a skoda diesel which is zero atm.
cost of elec versus fuel on average miles say 20k
maintanance-only brakes,oil and filter on ice cars under warranty for 3 years

tax --no big difference
insurance-can't be hughly different
And then sell it after 3 years-depreciation cost

The interest rate alone will pay for alot of petrol or diesel

fm

fm wrote: »

Hi Madlad,

Yes working out what a car is worth down the line isn't an easy task but can be done to an extent ,Easier with a petrol or diesel car granted but take a 3 year old leaf now will give you some idea.I know batteries are changing all the time but the popularity of a car has a huge impact on secondhand prices.

Have you ever worked out the cost though ????

Interest charges for example on a pcp plan on a leaf versus say a skoda diesel which is zero atm.
cost of elec versus fuel on average miles say 20k
maintanance-only brakes,oil and filter on ice cars under warranty for 3 years

tax --no big difference
insurance-can't be hughly different
And then sell it after 3 years-depreciation cost

The interest rate alone will pay for alot of petrol or diesel

I just did a quick calculation on the Skoda site against 1.6 TDI DSG , I wouldn't have the manual so this fits my choice, manual diesels are horrendously bad to drive, autos make them more bearable.


330 V 450 PM but around the same 5 K deposit.

Interestingly, the GFMV is 10,900 Euro's V 12 -12,500 for the Leaf can;t rem exactly I can did it up.

So I would say that you don't get "free" interest after all !

And something else I didn't see is the mileage limit ? I bet it's not 25,000 Kms !!!

fm

Ok,

Yes would agree about the dsg box but most won't as it costs more so most won't pay the difference.

It's 20km per year limit as standard on vw and skoda at the moment.

The gmfv figures are the minimum value as you know so these should be higher -but we can only estimate the equity left after you pay thefinal payment

So the skoda is

deposit=5000
330 by 36=11880
final= 10900

total=27780

The leaf

deposit =5000
450 by 36=16,200
final payment=12500

total =33,700

The leaf is 5920 dearer or 38 euros per week over 3 years,this is based on paying the final lump at the end.Now if gave the car back at the end the difference would be 4320 euros or 28 per week.

On average miles per week will you save that much on fuel/elec??

Lantus

Comparing a leaf to an Octavia probably isn't totally fair. I'd go for a petrol which is the pick of the crop and returns 55mpg. If you stick with 5k deposit that's 244 a month as the petrol is massively cheaper. You'd have to be doing huge milage to justify the diesel. If that's the case a leaf probably isn't in ther running.

I wouldn't put down a deposit bigger than the expected equity after 3years. 3 to 4 k would be expected on the leaf.

You can adjust the annual mileage no problem. Just not on the online calculator. It has a fairly small impact on value unless you are hitting huge mileage.

fm

fm wrote: »

Ok,

Yes would agree about the dsg box but most won't as it costs more so most won't pay the difference.

It's 20km per year limit as standard on vw and skoda at the moment.

The gmfv figures are the minimum value as you know so these should be higher -but we can only estimate the equity left after you pay thefinal payment

So the skoda is

deposit=5000
330 by 36=11880
final= 10900

total=27780

The leaf

deposit =5000
450 by 36=16,200
final payment=12500

total =33,700

The leaf is 5920 dearer or 38 euros per week over 3 years,this is based on paying the final lump at the end.Now if gave the car back at the end the difference would be 4320 euros or 28 per week.

On average miles per week will you save that much on fuel/elec??

You're forgetting something, the GFMV is if you wish to buy the car at the end, which most won't on PCP so the leaf has 12,500 V 10,900, you're calculating the costs to buy the whole car which most people will not do on PCP, this isn't the idea of PCP.

So if you wish to continue on the Skoda it will cost 1,600 more to go to the next contract. + mileage penalty of 900 Euro's + difference in fuel costs.

So the cost over 3 yeas is this.

Skoda

330 Pm x 36 = 11,880

+ 5 K Deposit = 16,880

GFMV 10,990

Leaf

450 x 36 = 16,200

+ 5 K Deposit = 21,200

GFMV 12,500 difference of 1,600.

Diesel will cost @ 55 mpg over 25,000 Kms total 75,000 4,500 Euro's. @ 1.19 PL.


Total 21,380 V Leaf 22,645 Both cars including fuel.

Leaf to drive 25,000 Kms on night rate leccy 75,000 total kms with my reasonably hard driving = 13,500 Kwh x .85 C /Kwh = 1,147 Euro's


The difference is the GFMV which is 1,600 in favor of the Leaf + 15,000 Kms for the Leaf meaning the skoda will have to pay about 6 c km ? I can't find any info so say 6 it will be in or around that's 900 Euro's.

So GFMV difference 1,600 + 900 Euro's =2,500 Euro's

So what we end up with now is

Skoda Cost of PCP + deposit + mileage penalty + difference in GFMV

23,880 Skoda

Leaf cost of PCP + deposit + Fuel = 22,347 Euro's.

Leaf wins by 1,533 Euro's for the financing. + the difference in fuel + maintenance.

You can calculate the non DSG 1.6 TDI manual either and adjust the leaftrim down also.

The Leaf will still come with more kit than the Skoda. Led Lights, remote activation of heat and AC not entirely sure about the heated seats, steering.

DrPhilG

It's all down to the individual situation of course but I do about 17k miles a year and I will save approximately €2500 in the first year of ownership, between reduced tax, insurance and diesel costs.

Even if the ESB charges came in as initially priced (and it currently doesn't look likely for a while and at those rates) then I still expect to save around €1900-€2000 per year.

So direct comparisons between petrol/diesel/electric aren't worth much as the deciding factor is how much money is saved on fuel costs and those will vary greatly from person to person.

Villain

The problem with comparing a diesel or petrol at the moment is the uncertainty around Public Charging costs and resale values above the GFMV.

The other large difference is range anxiety which especially in the winter is an issue and when newer technology in batteries reduce that then the resale costs will likely be skewed too, e.g. if you buy a 24kw or 30kw now and sign into a 3 year PCP, when the 3 years comes about there may well be a 50kw or more available, what impact will that have on resale of the car? Will there be any equity left?

99.5% of the population would not have considered an EV even before the proposed ESB charges. The evidence was there and electrics account for 0.4 % of the entire passenger vehicle marker.

Perhaps when Leaf II with 320-380 Kms range may make them change their minds but not until then at the very least.

Most people will charge at home for 97% of the time and as batteries get larger this could be 99% of the time or slightly more. Public charging will account for a minuscule fraction of the charging time.

Given that the above costs based on a 3 year leas are in favor of the Leaf I would say that people who lease don't have to worry about resale value.

I don't think the cost of finance is free and it shows in the GFMV, you pay for it either way, do people really think you're going to get money for nothing ?

Villain

Mad_Lad you are basing most of that on what may come to pass, the facts are at present that if you are thinking of buying an EV there is uncertainty around public chargers and the rain in Winter is 130km on 24kw, which means you have to consider range anxiety as a negative and the proposed charges make Fast charging more expensive per KM than a Diesel there is also huge uncertainty around the value above GFMV, which means the uncertain part of a PCP is high risk for an EV.

Now compare that to modern Diesel, cheaper to purchase no range anxiety and much better idea of equity above GFMV.

So the big positive is possible fuel costs assuming one charges at home on night rate, that could be a nice saving but over 3 years PCP will it be enough to make up for the higher purchase price and higher risk in level of equity above GFMV??

I'm not sure what the answer is tbh and I love my SVE leaf very nice spec but if at the end of my 3 year PCP finance where I will be well below the milage signed up to I don't have enough equity to cover deposit for next car the any savings may end up being very little!

Actually Villan, if you read my post there on the Skoda the Skoda works out 1,500 more expensive over a 3 year lease including fuel for the two cars, counting into that the fact the skoda gets 15,0000 less KMS on the PCP over the lease and has to be accounted for.

This is including depreciation. I calculated both cars based on having 0 value above the GFMV which is what you need to do just in case and start saving for another deposit.

The 0% Skoda works out 1,500 more expensive over the 3 years excluding any extra maintenance costs.

The Proposed ESB charges might rattle the minds of the few % of people thinking of buying an EV but when they sit out and do the maths they will say, ok, if the ESB actually do charge 17 PM and 30 C/min then I still stand to save a fortune like I calculated it would cost me 81 euro's PM if I were to drive 134 Kms daily 5 days a week and use the QC for 10 mins a day V 180-200 PM in Diesel.

If I go to the west a few times a year at the most or South and it costs me the same as diesel or a bit more for those couple of trips a year then so what ? the majority of people's driving will be met by home charging.

When the 60 kwh leaf arrives and it's not a stupid price then trips to the QC will be rare.

If someone has no fast charger and is not allowed to charge at home then this is a political problem in my view and needs to be addressed
far more than the ESB charges in my opinion because we need people to rely less on the Public network.

As it stands now there is practically no interest in electric cars and this is proved by the pathetic sales numbers even before the proposed EV charges.

Villain

Well there are many cars far cheaper than the skoda, you are missing my main point forget the public charging prices. Assume an owner never needs public charging.

Say compare a Nissan Note SVE 1.5 Diesel to Leaf SVE, the note is just over €4,000 cheaper and if you stick to the agreed mileage and keep the car in good shape you should have pretty good idea of its value at the of end of a 3 year PCP.

So say the user puts up 4,000 deposit, they can pretty much rely on that equity being in the car at the end and pulling up in 3 years time for a new car with same monthly repayments.

Compare that to a 24KW leaf or even a 30KW which would be 7,000 more expensive, how certain are you of the equity in 3 years if a 50KW version is available? That imo is a risk people need to think about.

Also leaving aside the equity risk what kind of mileage would you need to be doing within the limits of PCP that would account for a saving of 6,900? That's the difference between a note and a leaf 30KW when you remove the extra 180 for difference in car tax?

For starters if the note is 4 K cheaper it will cost 4,500 to fuel over 75,000 Kms. Ex maintenance.

You have a good idea of the value in the car because it's on paper called the GFMV so doifferent cars will be worth more or less nobody knows this is why you don;t go into PCP expecting more than the GFMV but it usually will be worth more but you can't go into a contract expecting to get more than what's on the contract.

You can always go buy a car new for 12 K if you want. Why do people buy diesel when the majority of people don;t do the mileage to justify it ?

When the 60 kwh leaf comes out I couldn't care less what it does to resale value because My GFMV is set and if it's worth less that's nissan's problem. 2nd hand leafs will make cracking value for money so who knows what it does to resale value.

You could also say that who knows what will happen to diesel emissions regulations or what will the government/E.U do to increase taxes or even rid Europe of diesels ? unlikely ? it has to happen eventually and there won't be mass transition to EV until there is radical change to the cost of diesels.

Who knows what will happen when OPEC restrict oil production again ? they are already feeling the pinch from flooding the market of cheap oil, predicted to go down to 30 USD a barrel soon, some so called experts predict when they restrict production again the cost will sky rocket , so what's 1.19 per litre could in a year or two end up being back near 1.70 Per liter or more !

people don't just buy a car because it's cheap to buy and run, mostly they buy one because they want one and it's as simple as that, the majority of people buy a new car and don't take into account the cost to run or depreciation or even interest on the loan, mostly they see a cost per month and just go with what they are willing to pay and sometimes forget about the running costs.

For the average motorist they buy a car, the No 1 thing on their mind is it has to be a diesel , the extra cost to buy, interest etc is not top of their thinking when buying a car or depreciation and least of all EV is far from being on their mind when thinking of buying a new car and I have yet to come across anyone who would consider and EV for their next car be it here in work , at home, even friends I have asked and nobody is even the slightest bit interested and this tells me that the change will come politically and when Car manufacturers decide to stop producing diesels.

Villain

Deleted User wrote: »

For starters if the note is 4 K cheaper it will cost 4,500 to fuel over 75,000 Kms. Ex maintenance.

You have a good idea of the value in the car because it's on paper called the GFMV so doifferent cars will be worth more or less nobody knows this is why you don;t go into PCP expecting more than the GFMV but it usually will be worth more but you can't go into a contract expecting to get more than what's on the contract.

You can always go buy a car new for 12 K if you want. Why do people buy diesel when the majority of people don;t do the mileage to justify it ?

When the 60 kwh leaf comes out I couldn't care less what it does to resale value because My GFMV is set and if it's worth less that's nissan's problem. 2nd hand leafs will make cracking value for money so who knows what it does to resale value..

I'm not sure you get how PCP works here, the equity in car ABOVE the GFMV is very important and you don't seem to be grasping the risk with an EV above a Petrol or Diesel.

Most people who go PCP put up a deposit, minimum is usually 10% but I myself put 4,500 up, with PCP the usual would be that the deposit remains in equity so at the end of 3 years you can use the equity to as the deposit for the next PCP.

Now if a 60KW Leaf comes out and there is no equity in the car then the cost of a Leaf SVE over a note could be nearer 10,000!

cros13

Villain wrote: »

Leaf SVE over a note

TBH the fairer comparison is with the Leaf's real petrol/diesel stablemate the Pulsar. They are more comparable in passenger and cargo volume. The Leaf chassis is a modification of the Pulsar's.

The diesel Pulsar is basically the same money as the 24kWh Leaf (actually a little more as leather etc is an option even on SVE).

I'm reasonably confident that for the next generation EVs (300-500km range) no-one will be able to keep up with demand. That will bolster demand for 2nd hand EVs even if they have less range. There are so few around and there will be significant demand from people who's needs are met by a shorter range EV but were previously dismissive or unaware and in addition substantial demand for 2nd vehicles from people with those new 3rd generation EVs.

In the end people just want a car that meets their needs. My dad will be stopping at the 30kWh Leaf and is not planning to move to a prospective 60kWh. The reason being that the 30kWh comfortably covers the one longer trip he takes once a month without rapid charging, something that was just barely possible in summer on his current battery.

Personally another 50% on to my 22kWh in the i3 would do me. The new i3 modules with that bump are due in Q2/Q3 2016. That bump would cut my rapid charging to probably once or twice a month from 4 - 5 a week.

I've been considering a bump to a used Tesla in the new year, but thats not really for any practical reason.

Villain

cros13 wrote: »

TBH the fairer comparison is with the Leaf's real petrol/diesel stablemate the Pulsar. They are more comparable in passenger and cargo volume. The Leaf chassis is a modification of the Pulsar's.

The diesel Pulsar is basically the same money as the 24kWh Leaf (actually a little more as leather etc is an option even on SVE).

I'm reasonably confident that for the next generation EVs (300-500km range) no-one will be able to keep up with demand. That will bolster demand for 2nd hand EVs even if they have less range. There are so few around and there will be significant demand from people who's needs are met by a shorter range EV but were previously dismissive or unaware and in addition substantial demand for 2nd vehicles from people with those new 3rd generation EVs.

In the end people just want a car that meets their needs. My dad will be stopping at the 30kWh Leaf and is not planning to move to a prospective 60kWh. The reason being that the 30kWh comfortably covers the one longer trip he takes once a month without rapid charging, something that was just barely possible in summer on his current battery.

Personally another 50% on to my 22kWh in the i3 would do me. The new i3 modules with that bump are due in Q2/Q3 2016. That bump would cut my rapid charging to probably once or twice a month from 4 - 5 a week.

I've been considering a bump to a used Tesla in the new year, but thats not really for any practical reason.

If EV's took off then the resale value for a brief period may be more stable but my point here is it's a risk for EV's over Petrol or Diesel, and people should be informed before purchasing.

steelboots

Villain wrote: »

If EV's took off then the resale value for a brief period may be more stable but my point here is it's a risk for EV's over Petrol or Diesel, and people should be informed before purchasing.

I agree with Villain, the Pulsar is a fair comparison. I'm getting the SVE with has the leather seats (€1,200 option on pulsar) and 17inch alloys with armrest (€800 option) on Pulsar, and I'm not 100% sure but I don't think the Boss sound system is standard on the Pulsar SVE ?

The way I look at it is over the 4 yr PCP I have the leaf for I'm saving at least €6000 in fuel, so its a done deal for me. As far as I can see the only down side is the range and its a second car doing a defined journey each day. At the end of the day its a 5 yr warranty on the battery and even if it drops to 76% capacity I should be ok.

I think in 4 years time a Leaf with a battery in good condition and lets face it its easier to tell the condition of a battery than an ICE engine, gearbox, clutch... will have a reasonable resale value, and if it dosn't my daughter will have a nice car to go to college, who have charging points so no parking issues

Villain

Villain wrote: »

Now if a 60KW Leaf comes out and there is no equity in the car then the cost of a Leaf SVE over a note could be nearer 10,000!

Now there's some fortune telling if ever I read it !

By that logic you could also say that when OPEC restrict oil production because they're already feeling the pinch that the value of the ICE car will plummet because who knows the effect it will really have ?

And if the E.U change emissions regulations to penalise diesels the value in diesels could plummet, no one knows what will happen.

I based my figures on both the Octavia and Leaf getting no more than the GFMV and the Leaf comes out pretty good compared to the Octavia.

If both cars have more value then this will adjust accordingly but I find 2nd hand values on leafs are doing good based on data on carzone over the months.

It's highly likely the leaf will have more value because the GFMV is the rock bottom price Nissan expect to get for the car.

Villain

Deleted User wrote: »

Now there's some fortune telling if ever I read it !

By that logic you could also say that when OPEC restrict oil production because they're already feeling the pinch that the value of the ICE car will plummet because who knows the effect it will really have ?

And if the E.U change emissions regulations to penalise diesels the value in diesels could plummet, no one knows what will happen.

I based my figures on both the Octavia and Leaf getting no more than the GFMV and the Leaf comes out pretty good compared to the Octavia.

If both cars have more value then this will adjust accordingly but I find 2nd hand values on leafs are doing good based on data on carzone over the months.

It's highly likely the leaf will have more value because the GFMV is the rock bottom price Nissan expect to get for the car.

I give up, if you base PCP on the GFMV it's a crazy idea and HP would be far better and if you don't think there is added risk for an EV with short range and old better being worth less than a Petrol or Diesel then fair play.

Villain

Villain wrote: »

I give up, if you base PCP on the GFMV it's a crazy idea and HP would be far better and if you don't think there is added risk for an EV with short range and old better being worth less than a Petrol or Diesel then fair play.

You can't tell either way how it will end up. I'm not a fortune teller.

The thing with PCP is there is a guaranteed value and if it's worth less then it's Nissan's problem but it's highly likely it will be worth more as usually most cars are at the end.

The PCP offered me far lower monthly payments because I am not paying for the full cost of the car that I don't want to own.

PCP also ensured if the battery wasn't holding up that it wouldn't be my problem, but it's proving to be holding up extremely well.

Lantus

Comparing one cars gfmv to another's is pointless. You need to look at the overall deal.

Also your deposit is not taken into account with the gfmv. Usually on the first PCP people trade in a car which has reasonable value which pushes the monthly payment down. But the gfmv and the market value remain as is and therefore the equity will be what it is. Essentially you pay the same. If you take Skoda's finance calculator which is pretty good and try out some small and large deposits and add up the payments you'll see you pay the same and the gfmv remains unchanged.

That interest free on the Skoda isn't interest free because the GFV is a lower.

fm

Deleted User wrote: »

You're forgetting something, the GFMV is if you wish to buy the car at the end, which most won't on PCP so the leaf has 12,500 V 10,900, you're calculating the costs to buy the whole car which most people will not do on PCP, this isn't the idea of PCP.

So if you wish to continue on the Skoda it will cost 1,600 more to go to the next contract. + mileage penalty of 900 Euro's + difference in fuel costs.

So the cost over 3 yeas is this.

Skoda

330 Pm x 36 = 11,880

+ 5 K Deposit = 16,880

GFMV 10,990

Leaf

450 x 36 = 16,200

+ 5 K Deposit = 21,200

GFMV 12,500 difference of 1,600.

Diesel will cost @ 55 mpg over 25,000 Kms total 75,000 4,500 Euro's. @ 1.19 PL.


Total 21,380 V Leaf 22,645 Both cars including fuel.

Leaf to drive 25,000 Kms on night rate leccy 75,000 total kms with my reasonably hard driving = 13,500 Kwh x .85 C /Kwh = 1,147 Euro's


The difference is the GFMV which is 1,600 in favor of the Leaf + 15,000 Kms for the Leaf meaning the skoda will have to pay about 6 c km ? I can't find any info so say 6 it will be in or around that's 900 Euro's.

So GFMV difference 1,600 + 900 Euro's =2,500 Euro's

So what we end up with now is

Skoda Cost of PCP + deposit + mileage penalty + difference in GFMV

23,880 Skoda

Leaf cost of PCP + deposit + Fuel = 22,347 Euro's.

Leaf wins by 1,533 Euro's for the financing. + the difference in fuel + maintenance.

You can calculate the non DSG 1.6 TDI manual either and adjust the leaftrim down also.

The Leaf will still come with more kit than the Skoda. Led Lights, remote activation of heat and AC not entirely sure about the heated seats, steering.

The 75km limit is only appicable if you do that mileage,in my case 60k would be perfect.


also the gfmv, just because the leaf is 12,500 is not an advantage,you are looking at it the wrong way,nissan are saying your car is worth 12,500 but you also owe 12.500 so that's zero ,the same is with the skoda ,10,900 but you owe 10,900 that's zero.You are not up 1,600 euros,there is no difference.You are saying the more you owe in the final lump the better.What is important is the equity which we can only estimate.

so cost of the the car is the deposit, 36 payments,fuel and maintanance minus the equity.

fm

Deleted User wrote: »

That interest free on the Skoda isn't interest free because the GFV is a lower.

yes nothing is free,certainly not from banks.i think maybe they have their prices high from the start so instead of reducing the rrp they give you "free interest" but really it's built in the the full price