I hate the M50 [Warning post #222]

Sam Russell

Deleted User wrote: »

The problem will be when the fixed distance has different speed limits on it, the algorithm would need to factor in the lengths at each and every variable limit imposed, very complex and as already stated, a defence lawyer's field day in forcing the proof that a speeding offence actually took place and on which particular section of road.

The speed has to be consistent between the two average speed cameras to make any logical sense. The speed is able to be varied, but it must be the same at the start and the end of the controlled/monitored section for any enforcement to be valid.
This also means that they would need to be switched off for a few minutes every time the speed is varied to avoid ticketing anyone doing 100 when the limit is dropped to 80 and the car had already passed the gantry.

I will try to explain.

Let us say there is a mythical motorway that is 30km long. You enter at J1 and leave at J 10 (30 km later). Speed limit is 120 km/h so it takes you 15 min.

Now imagine there is a 60 km/h speed limit btween J4 and J6, a distance of 10 km. J4 is 10 km on from J1 and J6 to J10 is 10 km. So first 10 should take 5 mins, second 10 km should take 10 mins, and third 10 km should take 5 mins. If you exit the motorway earlier that 20 mins after exiting, hen you have been speeding.

Clearly the law would have to be drafted to make this sufficient proof. Clearly, if you enter the motorway and the speed limit changes afterwards, the old higher speed limit would apply.

Te main point bout this type of enforcement is to make detection so likely that few if any chance it.

Sam Russell

Sam Russell wrote: »

I will try to explain.

Let us say there is a mythical motorway that is 30km long. You enter at J1 and leave at J 10 (30 km later). Speed limit is 120 km/h so it takes you 15 min.

Now imagine there is a 60 km/h speed limit btween J4 and J6, a distance of 10 km. J4 is 10 km on from J1 and J6 to J10 is 10 km. So first 10 should take 5 mins, second 10 km should take 10 mins, and third 10 km should take 5 mins. If you exit the motorway earlier that 20 mins after exiting, hen you have been speeding.

Clearly the law would have to be drafted to make this sufficient proof. Clearly, if you enter the motorway and the speed limit changes afterwards, the old higher speed limit would apply.

Te main point bout this type of enforcement is to make detection so likely that few if any chance it.

That fails when the traffic makes the vehicle go much slower between J3 & J8 for example, the driver could find that it's almost clear after J8 and could do 150km/h to J10 and still not get a ticket.

_Kaiser_

I think (like the RSA) that ye are too focused on "speed", and not enough on the real issues on the M50, namely:

- last minute lane changes (without looking, or indicating in most cases)
- tailgating
- drivers forcing their way in front of others (partly resulting in the aforementioned tailgating to dissuade it)
- driving at significantly below the limit when there's no reason (in terms of traffic volume, road/weather conditions etc) for it
- some poor junction designs (eg: traffic entering at Ballymount into the same stretch that high volumes of cars are trying to get into for the N7)
- inattention caused by drivers on their phones
- lack of enforcement by AGS, who in many cases are just as bad (like the marked squad car I witnessed weaving between all 3 lanes of the N7 yesterday "just cause". Arm up on the window, no lights.. he just couldn't be arsed sticking to a lane)

None of these will be caught by any speed camera, and are far more likely to cause issues than someone doing 110/120 if the road/traffic conditions permitted it.

Sam Russell

Deleted User wrote: »

That fails when the traffic makes the vehicle go much slower between J3 & J8 for example, the driver could find that it's almost clear after J8 and could do 150km/h to J10 and still not get a ticket.

Yes, that is true, but it is an automated system that will get most drivers not to speed. If the reduced speed limits are used correctly then there will be consistent speeds overall. If there is a traffic slowdown, then the speed limit will be reduced to reflect it. Active management is the key - so what if a few drivers try to game the system.

I would think the aim is not to catch people speeding but to encourage driver behaviour. If this works, then traffic flow will be better and more throughput.

Macy0161

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I think (like the RSA) that ye are too focused on "speed", and not enough on the real issues on the M50, namely:

Appalling lane discipline/ staying in the overtaking lanes when you're not overtaking.

Sam Russell

Macy0161 wrote: »

Appalling lane discipline/ staying in the overtaking lanes when you're not overtaking.

That needs active attention from AGS Traffic Corps - there is no substitute for the blue lights in the rear view mirror - or in the distance up ahead for putting manners on some drivers.

[Aside - the other day saw a taxi pulled on the Grand Canal by a grey unmarked Golf].

First Up

Sam Russell wrote:

That needs active attention from AGS Traffic Corps - there is no substitute for the blue lights in the rear view mirror - or in the distance up ahead for putting manners on some drivers.

The M50 (and the M7 too) need a massive education programme first and then some proper enforcement of how to use a 3 lane mororway. Its obvious that many drivers simply don't understand how to do it. Lane indiscipline is a far bigger problem than speed.

Sam Russell

First Up wrote: »

The M50 (and the M7 too) need a massive education programme first and then some proper enforcement of how to use a 3 lane mororway. Its obvious that many drivers simply don't understand how to do it. Lane indiscipline is a far bigger problem than speed.

Yes that is true.

But put in max speed of say 80 km in busy times enforced by average speed cameras and ALL traffic will be doing 80 k. This means it does not matter which lane you are in as all are going at - so no lane switching - or very low level of it.

It wont be long before the message gets through. I've seen it on the M1 widening project near Luton - worked very well as no-one dared go faster than the pack with the big yellow cameras every few kms.

First Up

You will still have the twit doing 60 in the middle lane, blocking those trying to get past the truck doing 50 in the inside lane.

marno21

The M1, M4/N4, M7/N7 and M11/N11 need an aggressive enforcement of the rules of the road by roving members of the Traffic Corps on motorbikes and in unmarked cars, for reasons such as:

1. Mobile phone use. The amount of people texting or using the Internet on motorways is an absolute disgrace.
2. Lane discipline issues. Self explanatory here.
3. Driving across hatch markings to get to an exit at the last minute. Most of the M50 and some of the other roads have auxilliary lanes stretching back several kilometers in places to the previous interchange. There is NO excuse for not being in the correct lane for the exit, especially given that a lot of people using the M50 are commuters who know exactly where their exit is and when they need to make the appropriate lane changes.
4. Aggressive driving and trying to bully through traffic, the same traffic that'll pass a particular point 10km down the road a few seconds behind you. People need a good ****ing and to be pulled for trying to get through traffic with sudden rapid lane changes (completely unsignalled of course) and tailgating in dense traffic.

The M50 does not need speed vans, especially the section between J7 Lucan/N4 and J9 Red Cow/N7. Ridiculous place for a speed van. The only thing it serves to do is cause a pile up by someone ****ting themselves when they see the speed van and standing on the brakes "to make sure they are below the limit, just in case".

Regarding average speed enforcement, it's a waste of time if there are intermediate junctions because someone can exit and rejoin some time later if they believe they are speeding, or speed deliberately if they know they will be exiting. Regardless, speeding is not a major issue on the M50, and shouldn't be getting the level of enforcement it is getting.

Unfortunately, having an inept Minister for Transport that seems to think speeding (without context) and being slightly over the alcohol limit are major causes of road deaths isn't helping e.g.:

Shane Ross wrote:

“It is a law of physics that the faster you drive, the more likely you are to be involved in a collision and the more likely the outcome will result in death or injury.”

When asked about several road deaths over the June Bank Holiday which hadn't been fully investigated including one where a truck jack-knifed on the M1. (http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/carnage-roads-five-people-lose-10565690)

Sam Russell

marno21 wrote: »

The M1, M4/N4, M7/N7 and M11/N11 need an aggressive enforcement of the rules of the road by roving members of the Traffic Corps on motorbikes and in unmarked cars, for reasons such as:

Motorbikes are too risky on motorways as busy as the M50. Unmarked cars are far more likely to yield results.

The M50 does not need speed vans, especially the section between J7 Lucan/N4 and J9 Red Cow/N7. Ridiculous place for a speed van. The only thing it serves to do is cause a pile up by someone ****ting themselves when they see the speed van and standing on the brakes "to make sure they are below the limit, just in case".

Speed vans have a place, but not on a busy M50 just for the reasons you state.

Regarding average speed enforcement, it's a waste of time if there are intermediate junctions because someone can exit and rejoin some time later if they believe they are speeding, or speed deliberately if they know they will be exiting. Regardless, speeding is not a major issue on the M50, and shouldn't be getting the level of enforcement it is getting.

I would see every entrance and exit ramp fitted with fixed ANPR cameras and every vehicle entering is checked for NCT, tax, and insurance. On leaving, it is checked for average speed as well. That alone would rid us of the loonies driving at stupid speeds.

It does not remove the need for Traffic Corps active patrolling for the other stupid behaviour like lane hogging, lane changing, last minute diving for the exit, etc. Once it gets through that prosecution is closer to a certainty for this kind of behaviour, then the behaviour will change.

Having seen the effect that those big signs saying 'Average Speed Enforcement' and those yellow cameras pointing at each lane have on British motorways, I have been convinced that it works. Not one vehicle switching lane or going 1 MPH over - magic.

PirateShampoo

Sam Russell wrote: »

Having seen the effect that those big signs saying 'Average Speed Enforcement' and those yellow cameras pointing at each lane have on British motorways, I have been convinced that it works. Not one vehicle switching lane or going 1 MPH over - magic.

And how do you think that will work out with the M50 having junctions every few Km?

CeilingFly

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I think (like the RSA) that ye are too focused on "speed", and not enough on the real issues on the M50, namely:

- last minute lane changes (without looking, or indicating in most cases)
- tailgating
- drivers forcing their way in front of others (partly resulting in the aforementioned tailgating to dissuade it)
- driving at significantly below the limit when there's no reason (in terms of traffic volume, road/weather conditions etc) for it
- some poor junction designs (eg: traffic entering at Ballymount into the same stretch that high volumes of cars are trying to get into for the N7)
- inattention caused by drivers on their phones
- lack of enforcement by AGS, who in many cases are just as bad (like the marked squad car I witnessed weaving between all 3 lanes of the N7 yesterday "just cause". Arm up on the window, no lights.. he just couldn't be arsed sticking to a lane)

None of these will be caught by any speed camera, and are far more likely to cause issues than someone doing 110/120 if the road/traffic conditions permitted it.

You'd be very surprised with change of behaviour when average speed cameras arrive.

The A1 in Belfast is a classic example.

It used to be dog eat dog on that road with constant stupid accidents, tailgating, lane jumping.

Av speed cameras arrive (few years ago) and all associated driving indiscretions drop considerably as everyone is driving at similar speed as the tailgating and lane jumping is part of the "get there quicker" mentality of some drivers.

Number of minor accidents on the A1 is now negligible.

Sam Russell

PirateShampoo wrote: »

And how do you think that will work out with the M50 having junctions every few Km?

There are 16 or so junctions on the M50, so 8 cameras per junction would be 128 in total. Add the ones for the gantries, and there you have it. Some could be dummies, as if they are painted yellow with big warning signs, who can tell?

As long as enough get to issue tickets to offenders, no-one will know which work and which do not.

Davy

3 (possibly 4) crashes between J4 and the M1 today at the same time.

2 NB after J4 and 1 SB nearly at the exact spot so im presuming all to do with rubber necking.

The possible 4th one was 3 cars in the hard shoulder, also at J4 but may have been a breakdown.

6 fire engines, 2 fire officers, 2 ambulances and 1 garda car becuase drivers cant focus on what they are doing.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

Some people went toll free yesterday.
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/investigation-launched-into-cutting-of-tag-readers-on-m50-794000.html

An investigation has been launched after tag readers were cut on the M50 yesterday.

A 48 year old man cut a number of wires on the bridge at around 9.30pm, which meant drivers went "toll free".

The M50 was closed for a time as Garda negotiators communicated with the man.

He was arrested and taken Blanchardstown Garda Station and is due to appear before the Criminal Courts of Justice today.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

I love Sean nos

Must still be done. The tag didn't beep for me northbound this evening.

Iseedeadpixels

Was it just the tag scanner or the cameras too?

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

Patww79

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

They must be just relying on the camera's OCR systems until the tag readers can be repaired.

I love Sean nos

Just checked my online eFlow tag statement and it's all over the place for this month. It's got me down for 3 journeys some days when I would have only made 2. It's missing yesterday afternoon, but again has me done for 3 today.

I'll wait until the proper invoice is issued at the beginning of July.

Trebor176

There were the usual northbound delays this evening. On the inside lane between Ballymount and the Red Cow exit on the inside lane, the traffic was moving slow. Why? Because three morons decided to hold everyone else up behind them as they crept their way up as far as they could until a gap of sufficient size appeared so they could cut in and join the queue. I knew what the woman in front of me was doing, as her right indicator was on for ages. No amount of flashing lights fazed her. Only did the drivers look in surprise as I blasted the horn at the three of them as I passed.

amcalester

Trebor176 wrote: »

There were the usual northbound delays this evening. On the inside lane between Ballymount and the Red Cow exit on the inside lane, the traffic was moving slow. Why? Because three morons decided to hold everyone else up behind them as they crept their way up as far as they could until a gap of sufficient size appeared so they could cut in and join the queue. I knew what the woman in front of me was doing, as her right indicator was on for ages. No amount of flashing lights didn't faze her. Only did the drivers look in surprise as I blasted the horn at the three of them as I passed.

Well done, teach those ****ers a lesson.

Trebor176

amcalester wrote: »

Well done, teach those ****ers a lesson.

They'll be at it again on Monday, and every other weekday after, while the traffic is bad. I'm sure I have encountered one of the three before doing the same thing.

amcalester

Trebor176 wrote: »

They'll be at it again on Monday, and every other weekday after, while the traffic is bad. I'm sure I have encountered one of the three before doing the same thing.

Keep beeping fam, they'll learn eventually.

mugsymugsy

The amount of people leaving traffic to go on the joining slip road to then merge further down into traffic is disgraceful. They cross the hatches and don't give two hoots about joining late on. Gardai traffic should be out shooting fish in a barrel.

I love Sean nos

Going northbound this afternoon and the tag beeped again.

As an aside, I was travelling in the M7, onto the N7 and then the M50 northbound. When the M7 switches to the N7, it's normally a stressful time. Because I'd been stopped for speeding earlier in the day, I just set the cruise control to 80km/h and stayed in the left lane the whole way home. Was so relaxing I'm going to try that approach again on Monday morning.

I love Sean nos

I love Sean nos wrote: »

Going northbound this afternoon and the tag beeped again.

As an aside, I was travelling in the M7, onto the N7 and then the M50 northbound. When the M7 switches to the N7, it's normally a stressful time. Because I'd been stopped for speeding earlier in the day, I just set the cruise control to 80km/h and stayed in the left lane the whole way home. Was so relaxing I'm going to try that approach again on Monday morning.

Probably not a good idea to go at a lower speed than the flow of traffic, you'll end up being a "mobile chicane" and piss off a lot of drivers.