Have any of you sold a property in high negative equity?

LilyShame

Hi

Have any of you sold a property, bought in the boom and now in high negative equity?

I have a property in negative equity which I dont live in. I am renting out and renting up...a member of the 'reluctant landlord' generation. I owe alot of money both in tax and the shortfall that would amount from a sale. It is likely the property value wont go up in the next couple of years.

I need to sort out my tax affairs and I would like to look into this as a legal matter. I am classed now as an 'investor' even though in truth, I am not. I simply couldnt sell the property and was forced into renting it out (its a one bed in a not great part of town and I had a child).

Are any of you out there in the same situation? Could I sell the property now and declare bankruptcy on the remaining shortfall....what other options is there...what have others here done?

Grab All Association

I don't think we can advise you what to do financially or speculate on the future performance of the property market.

MarkAnthony

Grab All Association wrote: »

I don't think we can advise you what to do financially or speculate on the future performance of the property market.

Have you seen the 2015 Thread?! :pac:

Seek professional advice. The thing that jumps out at me is a large tax bill on a property making a significant shortfall. It can happen but if you've buried your head in the sand re tax it's as sure as death to catch up with you in the end.

Beans on toast and an accountant is the way to go!

LilyShame

thanks MarkAnthony,
is there a particular thread I should look at ?
so it sounds like many are in the same situation.
I will contract a tax accountant....and emmigrate.
I still believe its unfair to be classed as an investor when all I want to do is get rid of it...

Wanderer78

best of luck op. apologies i dont have any advice but i know you're not alone. tough one. good luck

detoxkid

I'm in a similar situation and have decided to ride it out. The property costs me 4k a year taking into account tax and insurance etc. But at the minute I have good tenents in there who mind the place. So I have no brain waves about what to do and agree it is a crap situation to be in but just to say u are not alone.

A2LUE42

Is there a chance you have any savings?

You might be able to get a negative equity mortgage from your bank if you have a 10% deposit for a larger property.

riclad

It,s a ridiculous situation,
you can claim only for 75 per cent of interest on a loan ,and basic rental expenses .
So the loan capital is ignored ,
so i could have a loan of 20k per year,
my rent is 14k and i still have to pay tax on so called profits i make .
because i pay 8 capital on my loan .
Anyone who rents out a house or apartment is classified as an investor .
Whether you make a profit or not you have to send in a self assessment
tax return , you can recieve a fine for not sending in a tax return.
My friend is a reluctant landlord,
home worth 70k, loan is 145k.
IN the fifth year of renting she sent in 5 tax returns ,
for the last 5 years .thru an accountant .
She first registered the tenancy with the prtb.
She got 2 letters ,we have recieved your tax return .
your tax liability is 50cent.
she was not fined .
You cannot claim any interest on a loan as a landlord if the tenancy
unless the tenancy is registered BEFORE you send in your tax return .
My advice is register the tenancy with the prtb.
my other friend sold a house loan value 95k ,
sold by her for 80k.
The bank told her sell the house,
they said will will not ask you for anything over the sale price if the
price is fair market value in our opinion .
House was sold in 2010 ,loan was not a paid for 3 years before the house was sold .
she lives in outside the eu, since 2001 .
I have heard on the radio ,some banks will write off some or all
of the negative equity if you agree to sell the house as soon as you can .
This was covered on the joe duffy show,
some people go to the uk, live there for a year and declare bankruptcy .
Because they are in massive negative equity .
Come back here ,all their debts to banks etc are written off .
You could sell the house ,say for 90k
if the ne is 30-40k the bank may agree write it off .
or write off half the negative equity .
Get advice from citizens advice centre re bankruptcy .
There,s an organisation that helps people and gives legal advice for people that have negative equity or have problems paying their mortgage .

My friend is a reluctant landlord , she has two loans on two homes ,
rents out home no2.
She has maybe 2k savings,
she cant afford to sell the rental unit and pay 75k negative equity .

Wanderer78

im fearing an interest rate increase. i feel for home owners

MarkAnthony

I'm also an 'accidental' Landlord. While the outpouring of sympathy is most welcome, do bear in mind even if the property isn't washing it's hands it's still a significant asset someone else is part paying for.

riclad

Part of the asset is paid off,
but if interest rates go up in the next 15 years it,ll be a very expensive asset .
People are assuming interest rates will never rise,
thats not a logical assumption.
Every 1 per cent interest is 20 per cent extra on your monthly loan payment .

Wanderer78

riclad wrote: »

Part of the asset is paid off,
but if interest rates go up in the next 15 years it,ll be a very expensive asset .
People are assuming interest rates will never rise,
thats not a logical assumption.
Every 1 per cent interest is 20 per cent extra on your monthly loan payment .

im fearing this. this will put many families in serious trouble and probably many onto the streets. i think things are gonna get very scary here in a couple of years time

MarkAnthony

riclad wrote: »

Part of the asset is paid off,
but if interest rates go up in the next 15 years it,ll be a very expensive asset .
People are assuming interest rates will never rise,
thats not a logical assumption.
Every 1 per cent interest is 20 per cent extra on your monthly loan payment .

As the interest rates rise so does the relief putting LLs in a better position than Joe Soap owner occupier. As mortgages increase due to interest rate rises so will rents, potentially - assuming we haven't seen them peak due to demand based factors.

I'm not saying it's a bed of roses. It's just hard to be too sympathetic given the end result of the long game isn't all bad. Where people have two or three properties, it's even harder to be sympathetic as they were clearly speculating and someone always gets burned doing that, it's the nature of it.

riclad

There,s only so far rents can rise ,
epecially in rural area,s .Where there is a limited amount of potential tenant,s .
The government should put in rent control,
For any rent increase ,you have to get 6 months notice.
Rent can only rise in line with general inflation .
Companys like intel will stop coming to ireland as the rents are too high .
rents effect the whole economy .

New Home

It might be worth your while to take a look at www.askaboutmoney.com, someone else might have posted something similar there.

womandriver

riclad wrote: »

My friend is a reluctant landlord , she has two loans on two homes ,
rents out home no2.
She has maybe 2k savings,
she cant afford to sell the rental unit and pay 75k negative equity .

If your friend was reluctant to be a landlord, why on earth did she buy 2 houses? Was she planning to live in both of them? Are we supposed to have sympathy for her?

The OP doesn't mention she can't afford to pay the mortgage. She mentions a tax bill that she can't pay, maybe the revenue should be deducting at source if people can't be trusted to manage their tax affairs. I don't like paying tax on my salary but I don't really have a choice, I'm not expecting sympathy for it.
It sounds like the op wants to sell because the apt is in negative equity, which means absolutely nothing until you actually sell, and doesn't want to repay the full amount she borrowed.

A one bed in a bad part of town was never going to end well, don't see why the tax payer should be picking up the pieces of her poor decision making.

johnnyskeleton

LilyShame wrote: »

thanks MarkAnthony,
is there a particular thread I should look at ?
so it sounds like many are in the same situation.
I will contract a tax accountant....and emmigrate.
I still believe its unfair to be classed as an investor when all I want to do is get rid of it...

What does "classed as an investor" mean? Did the bank take you off a tracker? If youve a tax bill from the rent then presumably you have another source of income - maybe use some of that to pay the mortgage?

hurleronditch

riclad wrote: »

It,s a ridiculous situation,
you can claim only for 75 per cent of interest on a loan ,and basic rental expenses .
So the loan capital is ignored ,
so i could have a loan of 20k per year,
my rent is 14k and i still have to pay tax on so called profits i make .
because i pay 8 capital on my loan .
Anyone who rents out a house or apartment is classified as an investor .
Whether you make a profit or not you have to send in a self assessment
tax return , you can recieve a fine for not sending in a tax return.
My friend is a reluctant landlord,
home worth 70k, loan is 145k.
IN the fifth year of renting she sent in 5 tax returns ,
for the last 5 years .thru an accountant .
She first registered the tenancy with the prtb.
She got 2 letters ,we have recieved your tax return .
your tax liability is 50cent.
she was not fined .
You cannot claim any interest on a loan as a landlord if the tenancy
unless the tenancy is registered BEFORE you send in your tax return .
My advice is register the tenancy with the prtb.
my other friend sold a house loan value 95k ,
sold by her for 80k.
The bank told her sell the house,
they said will will not ask you for anything over the sale price if the
price is fair market value in our opinion .
House was sold in 2010 ,loan was not a paid for 3 years before the house was sold .
she lives in outside the eu, since 2001 .
I have heard on the radio ,some banks will write off some or all
of the negative equity if you agree to sell the house as soon as you can .
This was covered on the joe duffy show,
some people go to the uk, live there for a year and declare bankruptcy .
Because they are in massive negative equity .
Come back here ,all their debts to banks etc are written off .
You could sell the house ,say for 90k
if the ne is 30-40k the bank may agree write it off .
or write off half the negative equity .
Get advice from citizens advice centre re bankruptcy .
There,s an organisation that helps people and gives legal advice for people that have negative equity or have problems paying their mortgage .

My friend is a reluctant landlord , she has two loans on two homes ,
rents out home no2.
She has maybe 2k savings,
she cant afford to sell the rental unit and pay 75k negative equity .

Whilst the accidental landlord deeply in negative equity is not an enviable position, to consider profits as merely surplus cash flow through to the landlord is deeply flawed. Even if the rent only covers 50% of capital payments, the simple fact is that you will end up with an asset for which you only paid 50% of the price of. The remaining surplus at maturity is profit. That has to be taxed in some way. Sadly it is not possible for the taxman to differentiate between accidental and intentional landlords.

Tigger

Can you not set your loss in capital value against the tax ?

relax carry on

Tigger wrote: »

Can you not set your loss in capital value against the tax ?

No.

riclad

We are in the midst of the housing crisis ,
it would make sense to say if a landlord rents to some one on rent allowance he will recieve 100 or 120 per cent tax credits on all loan interest paid .
There are 100,s of familys living in hotels because they cant find rental
accomodation under the rent allowance system.
Its obvious a landlord is in negative equity if the loan payment per month is 1200 and the rent is 700 euro per month.
The tax man is taxing a non existant profit in many case,s ,
since all the capital loan payments are ignored.
The tax office could make a space on the self assessment form,
my loan is x amount,
current house value is x amount .There are 1000,s of accidental landlords
who can,t sell up because they cant pay the extra amount between the house value and the price paid for the house in the boom ,
200-2008.

womandriver

Tigger wrote: »

Can you not set your loss in capital value against the tax ?

What loss? Negative equity is only a paper loss unless you actually sell. She hasn't sold.

Can she offset a capital loss against income tax if she does sell? No.

Tigger

womandriver wrote: »

What loss? Negative equity is only a paper loss unless you actually sell. She hasn't sold.

Can she offset a capital loss against income tax if she does sell? No.

i'm not being smart but if you are a business with a depreciated asset you can write this off against income
now if you need to realise this loss i can accept that but you say you can't?
makes no sense , are you sure

Losses on rental income
A loss on rental income can be carried forward to the next tax year but it cannot be offset against tax on other income e.g. PAYE
A loss on rental income can only be carried forward against future rental profits. The loss must be claimed in the relevant tax year and carried forward. If the loss is not claimed in the relevant tax year it cannot be used in a future tax year.

so if you are a builder who also rents out his buildings a loss on rental income cannot be set against other income
i'm glad i'm not a landlord

relax carry on

Tigger wrote: »

i'm not being smart but if you are a business with a depreciated asset you can write this off against income
now if you need to realise this loss i can accept that but you say you can't?
makes no sense , are you sure



so if you are a builder who also rents out his buildings a loss on rental income cannot be set against other income
i'm glad i'm not a landlord

Rental income is taxed under case v rather than case i or ii. Different rules apply unfortunately.

womandriver

Tigger wrote: »

i'm not being smart but if you are a business with a depreciated asset you can write this off against income
now if you need to realise this loss i can accept that but you say you can't?
makes no sense , are you sure



so if you are a builder who also rents out his buildings a loss on rental income cannot be set against other income
i'm glad i'm not a landlord

Do you understand what negative equity means?

riclad

She bought 1 apartment to live in,
the 2nd one is an investment .
She bought when prices were going up,
in the middle of the boom.
SHE bought a house in dublin, sold it.lived there for 5 years.
Made about 100k profit after selling that .
then bought 2 apartments near athlone.
when she bought the apartments ,prices were going up every month.
Landlords are not treated like other business,s ,
in general theres no way to write off capital expenses ,
Apart from things like cookers ,fridges ,etc bought for the rental unit.
The government spends millions on renting out hotels ,
it would be cheaper to increase tax credits and encourage landlords to
rent to welfare tenants on rent allowance,
vs renting to joe bloggs who works in a factory.
Negative equity is simply the difference between the mortgage vs the current value of the house .
Some houses in rural area ,s are worth 40-60 per cent less than the mortgage value .

womandriver

riclad wrote: »

She bought 1 apartment to live in,
the 2nd one is an investment .
She bought when prices were going up,
in the middle of the boom.
SHE bought a house in dublin, sold it.lived there for 5 years.
Made about 100k profit after selling that .
then bought 2 apartments near athlone.
when she bought the apartments ,prices were going up every month.
Landlords are not treated like other business,s ,
in general theres no way to write off capital expenses ,
Apart from things like cookers ,fridges ,etc bought for the rental unit.
The government spends millions on renting out hotels ,
it would be cheaper to increase tax credits and encourage landlords to
rent to welfare tenants on rent allowance,
vs renting to joe bloggs who works in a factory.
Negative equity is simply the difference between the mortgage vs the current value of the house .
Some houses in rural area ,s are worth 40-60 per cent less than the mortgage value .

I don't really see how you can suggest she's a reluctant landlord seeing as that is exactly what she set out to be.

riclad

riclad wrote: »

it would be cheaper to increase tax credits and encourage landlords to
rent to welfare tenants on rent allowance,
vs renting to joe bloggs who works in a factory.
Negative equity is simply the difference between the mortgage vs the current value of the house .
Some houses in rural area ,s are worth 40-60 per cent less than the mortgage value .

And where does Joe Bloggs go in this scenario?
Joe loses his house but still gets to pay taxes to put someone else in it?

Tigger

womandriver wrote: »

Do you understand what negative equity means?

Yes
do you understand that in most forms of business losses can be accounted for as in the Volkswagen scenario where they have announced potential losses and although the they have t happened they are happening "on paper " and so they have been set aside

womandriver

Tigger wrote: »

Yes
do you understand that in most forms of business losses can be accounted for as in the Volkswagen scenario where they have announced potential losses and although the they have t happened they are happening "on paper " and so they have been set aside

Accounting losses and tax losses are two different things. She's clearly not making a tax loss or she wouldn't have an outstanding tax bill. I'm an accountant and you can rest assured that I know a thing or two about the treatment of losses. VW have recognised a provision which may or may not be allowable for tax purposes, they issued quarterly results not a tax return.

LilyShame

Hi All, thanks for all the responses. Firstly it is heartening to know there are many in my position and I am not alone.

To clarify;

I bought the apartment in D1 in 2006 via the city council shared ownership scheme and it was a great route to getting on the ladder. 14 months later I bought them out via a bank. I bought as I had a decent job and I couldnt live at home in my parents house down the country due to some factors which I wont share here. I had many happy years there while single. My job changed, alot of cuts, no chance of a promotion, met someone, had a baby, had to move out, rent up, and so did, 2 years ago. I would have bought-up, but as you all know ....that wasnt an option. Someone here made a very good point, the revenue, the overall system, doesnt distinguish between being a landlord by choice versus landlord by reluctance. How could I be an 'investor' when I myself am a tenant!? Maybe thats the nub of it. If I had bought at a different time, my life had changed at a different time, I wouldnt be talking to you all here! Do I and others accept this? It just doesnt sit right with me....

I certainly did not buy another property!! Thats a different ball game. ..

I am starting to review my options. I am very reluctant to buy a 2 bed somewhere else and sell where I am ....as the debt just remains and goes with me and the cycle continues. That is why I have considered voluntary insolvency. My salary hasnt changed in 8 years and I am doing my best now to network and get a better paying job which would help the issue. I am also meeting my local TD to discuss the broader issue.....its election time after all.

If anyone has suggestions of a good accountant/tax specialist (a wizard with figures) in the north dublin city area, please feel free to PM me.

I will keep the thread alive by posting an update which might be useful to others. and again, if others have actually sold a property in significant neg eq, or indeed went voluntarily insolvent, I am interested to hear about it.