Is Irish rugby truly the beacon of inclusiveness it is purported to be?

LeinsterDub

This thread paraphrased inclusiveness rabble rabble flegs rabble northside rabble skills?

What is this thread actually about?

davegrohl48

LeinsterDub wrote: »

This thread paraphrased inclusiveness rabble rabble flegs rabble northside rabble skills?

What is this thread actually about?

Someone a few posts ago had a pop at the Irish soccer team. My point being rugby is in no place to put itself anywheres close to the performance of the Irish soccer team or in my opinion the mastery of their chosen sport compared to the national soccer team.
You could pick a truly world class Irish soccer team from the last 30 years you couldn't do it in rugby. I wouldnt expect that you could, whatever small pick we have are too focussed on gym at a young age and not enough day to day focus on skills. In New Zealand they practice rugby the same way future soccer professionals practice their skills, constant practice with the ball. We would have more guys closer to ODriscoll if we had more of a focus on skill and less on size at a young age.

Stheno

davegrohl48 wrote: »

Someone a few posts ago had a pop at the Irish soccer team. My point being rugby is in no place to put itself anywheres close to the performance of the Irish soccer team or in my opinion the mastery of their chosen sport compared to the national soccer team.
You could pick a truly world class Irish soccer team from the last 30 years you couldn't do it in rugby.

Remind me when an Irish soccer team last got to the quarter finals of a world cup?

davegrohl48

Stheno wrote: »

Remind me when an Irish soccer team last got to the quarter finals of a world cup?

1988 qualified to Euros.
Beat England, drew with Russia. beaten by a Holland team containing once a decade players. All three nations far more players than us. As I recall the Dutch goal should not have been awarded as ball had gone out for a throw in the buildup on the right wing.
1990 made quarter narrowly beaten by Italy containing once a decade players.
1994 made second round narrowly beaten by Holland. Paul Mcgrath has a top class goal dissallowed for a harsh high boot. The loss against Mexico there was a huge disadvantage to playing the game early in the day in the heat.
2002 - Drew with Spain narrow loss on penalties. Spain you may have heard of them!
2012 - Our worst tournament... But at least we qualified.
You do realise Ireland has to qualify for these tournament, get past a group stage, get past a second round.
In all those tournaments only one where the team played poorly, 2012.
Far far in excess of the rugby teams performance. Up to 2012 never once well beaten in a tournament game against some of the worlds best teams and some of the greatest ever players.

Stheno

davegrohl48 wrote: »

1988 qualified to Euros.
Beat England, drew with Russia. beaten by a Holland team containing once a decade players. All three nations far more players than us. As I recall the Dutch goal should not have been awarded as ball had gone out for a throw in the buildup on the right wing.
1990 made quarter narrowly beaten by Italy containing once a decade players.
1994 made second round narrowly beaten by Holland. Paul Mcgrath has a top class goal dissallowed for a harsh high boot. The loss against Mexico there was a huge disadvantage to playing the game early in the day in the heat.
2002 - Drew with Spain narrow loss on penalties. Spain you may have heard of them!
2012 - Our worst tournament... But at least we qualified.
You do realise Ireland has to qualify for these tournament, get past a group stage, get past a second round.
In all those tournaments only one where the team played poorly, 2012.
Far far in excess of the rugby teams performance. Up to 2012 never once well beaten in a tournament game against some of the worlds best teams and some of the greatest ever players.

So one quarter final in 30 years? You do realise the rugby team have to finish second in their group to qualify for the next world cup and have afaik hit the quarter finals at least four times?

davegrohl48

Stheno wrote: »

So one quarter final in 30 years? You do realise the rugby team have to finish second in their group to qualify for the next world cup and have afaik hit the quarter finals at least four times?

You seriously want me to be impressed by the Irish rugby teams tournament and next world cup qualification record?
The Irish soccer team has vastly outperformed the rugby team in tournament play of Euros/World cup versus Rugby World Cup.
England
Italy
Holland
Russia
Spain
Germany
We have got results against the best soccer nations in tournament play or qualifiers.
We got the Australia win.... And what else in rugby?

Stheno

davegrohl48 wrote: »

You seriously want me to be impressed by the Irish rugby teams tournament and next world cup qualification record?
The Irish soccer team has vastly outperformed the rugby team in tournament play of Euros/World cup versus Rugby World Cup.
England
Italy
Holland
Russia
Spain
Germany
We have got results against the best soccer nations in tournament play or qualifiers.
We got the Australia win.... And what else in rugby?

Two six nations back to back which is the equivalent of the Euros in soccer?

You seem to have a serious issue here that our rugby team are actually better than our soccer team.

When's the last time the soccer team reached a WC quarter?

Seriously get over yourself, as a rugby team, we are one of the best in the NH as a soccer team the ROI team are at this stage behind the NI team.

In case you've missed in NI Soccer team are qualified, ROI soccer team are in the play offs.

Irish Rugby team are qualified for the next world cup as they topped their group, when have an Irish soccer team done that?

davegrohl48

Stheno wrote: »

Two six nations back to back which is the equivalent of the Euros in soccer?

You seem to have a serious issue here that our rugby team are actually better than our soccer team.

When's the last time the soccer team reached a WC quarter?

Seriously get over yourself, as a rugby team, we are one of the best in the NH as a soccer team the ROI team are at this stage behind the NI team.

In case you've missed in NI Soccer team are qualified, ROI soccer team are in the play offs.

Irish Rugby team are qualified for the next world cup as they topped their group, when have an Irish soccer team done that?

Wow, you have an extremely narrow view of soccer in Europe versus rugby. We didnt top our group facing those traditional minnows called The World Champions and Poland with the most in form striker on the planet who sure enough scored a top class goal to beat us.
The six nations would not be anything like the Euros in soccer. Look at how many teams are competitive at qualification stage nevermind tournament.

Kirk Van Houten

I cant wait for another two pages of this as by that point it will have moved on from my sport is better than your sport to my dad would beat your dad in a fight.

Cronin The Destroyer

Irish rugby team > Irish soccer team. Three Six Nations in the last ten years, multiple triple crowns before that, plenty of second place finishes, plenty of high stake victories over England, Wales, and more recently France etc.

We are one of the best teams in the world at rugby. Don't want to sound meanspirited but have the Irish soccer team actually ever won anything?

seachto7

Comparing sports is childish. But on that note when only eight teams could qualify for the Euro football competition, you had proper quality there and in 1988 Ireland were in the top 8. Quality is diluted now with a bigger competition, and yes football has more competitive teams at the top than rugby but it's stupid comparing the two sports. Way off topic!

davegrohl48

Cronin The Destroyer wrote: »

Irish rugby team > Irish soccer team. Three Six Nations in the last ten years, multiple triple crowns before that, plenty of second place finishes, plenty of high stake victories over England, Wales, and more recently France etc.

We are one of the best teams in the world at rugby. Don't want to sound meanspirited but have the Irish soccer team actually ever won anything?

No never managed to:
1. Qualify from the qualifier group
2. Qualify from the tournament group
3. Win second round WC or quarter in Euros
4. Win quarter in world or semi in Euro
5. Win semi in world or final in euro
6. Win final in World.
Irish rugby team.
1. Get out of the group.
2. Beaten by Argentina * 3

Top of the Northern Hemisphere an inferior standard to Southern Hemisphere.
One impressive win versus Australia in the World cup.

irishbucsfan

davegrohl48 wrote: »

No never managed to:
1. Qualify from the qualifier group
2. Qualify from the tournament group
3. Win second round WC or quarter in Euros
4. Win quarter in world or semi in Euro
5. Win semi in world or final in euro
6. Win final in World.
Irish rugby team.
1. Get out of the group.
2. Beaten by Argentina * 3

Top of the Northern Hemisphere an inferior standard to Southern Hemisphere.
One impressive win versus Australia in the World cup.

Consistently winning silverware. Clubs competitive in Europe and fans not having to resort to supporting overseas clubs in order to watch top club rugby. We may not be the best rugby team in the world but I'm pretty happy with the standard of Irish rugby relative to certain other sports.

Jawgap

This thread reminds me of coming back from a match with a kids team I helped coach and the debate on the bus was raging - which was better soccer or rugby?

Anyway the debate continued and in the middle of it one of the quieter kids piped up and said 'rugby is better.'

When I asked him why? He just said 'the Haka!'

Comparing sports is ridiculous (is Tony McCoy a better athlete than BO'D) almost as ridiculous as comparing eras.

davegrohl48

Jawgap wrote: »

This thread reminds me of coming back from a match with a kids team I helped coach and the debate on the bus was raging - which was better soccer or rugby?

Anyway the debate continued and in the middle of it one of the quieter kids piped up and said 'rugby is better.'

When I asked him why? He just said 'the Haka!'

Comparing sports is ridiculous (is Tony McCoy a better athlete than BO'D) almost as ridiculous as comparing eras.

I agree with you on the Haka. Something other worldly about it.

seachto7

davegrohl48 wrote:

I agree with you on the Haka. Something other worldly about it.

Ireland should ignore it next time we play them

Jaysus what a dreadful thread.

I don't like football. Some people don't like rugby. Both of those opinions are valid.

techdiver

This went off the edge a bit.

Comparing the skills of soccer to rugby is about as relevant as comparing them to darts.

If you want to have a valid discussion on skill levels, you could talk about the skill levels of the Irish rugby team in comparison to New Zealand or Australia. That would be more relevant.

Jawgap

The original question was about inclusivity and it wandered to discuss reach.

Yes, rugby clubs are wholly inclusive - if any kid rocks up to a club this weekend looking to join he'll be accepted and, assuming they have an appropriate age grade team, he'll be allowed participate (subject to him or her having a gumshield).

No ifs, ands or buts.

Some clubs may assess players before releasing them into general training just to get an idea of skill levels (we do at older ages).

In our club a youth player can train with us for 5 weeks then they have to join (for insurance reasons) before they can play a match.

The entry costs to rugby as a sport are relatively low (compared to say golf or cycling) maybe slightly more than soccer and GAA (because typically players pay for their own jersey) but not insurmountable. Our club offers discounted membership for people on SW and / or for second and subsequent kids from the same family, as well as family membership packages. We also run schemes to allow younger kids to buy kit from older kids and we maintain a discretely distributed kit pool.

There's discounted tickets for Leinster matches and subsidised transport.

......and I don't for one minute believe our club is in anyway special.

On the question of reach, rugby does not compare to soccer and GAA - outside the towns and cities in particular people do have to travel a bit further to find a club/team - that doesn't mean it's not inclusive, it just means it's not as accessible as other team sports.

accidentprone1

Ah Christ, lads, we actually had potential for an interesting debate on the balance between north and south rugby.


Instead we've descended into "Soccer is better because you have to kick it to the feet of the other player, rugby is bad because John Hayes learned to scrummage quickly".

Yeah_Right

Deleted User wrote: »

Jaysus what a dreadful thread.

I don't like football. Some people don't like rugby. Both of those opinions are valid.

No. That's not a valid opinion. People who don't like rugby should be forced to spend 48 hours watching the greatest games of all time (OK the last 28 years). If they aren't rugby fans after that, they should be shot because we don't need that sort of ignorance in this world.

iamironman87

Some people think rugby league is better than rugby union. It takes all sorts.

jacothelad

Stheno wrote: »

Remind me when an Irish soccer team last got to the quarter finals of a world cup?

1982 and 1958.

jacothelad

Jawgap wrote: »

This thread reminds me of coming back from a match with a kids team I helped coach and the debate on the bus was raging - which was better soccer or rugby?

Anyway the debate continued and in the middle of it one of the quieter kids piped up and said 'rugby is better.'

When I asked him why? He just said 'the Haka!'

Comparing sports is ridiculous (is Tony McCoy a better athlete than BO'D) almost as ridiculous as comparing eras.

The son of one of my friends used to ask really daft questions as children do. This stuff reminds me of one cracker he came out with. 'Dad, who would win a fight between a tiger and a shark?'

jony_dols

On the point of inclusiveness, rugby is one of the only sports in Ireland to break down sectarian divides, especially during the 70's and 80's. My Dad played with one of the Limerick teams, during the Troubles. Like him, most of his teammates were Catholic, with no airs or graces attached.

They used to travel up to play in Belfast and other Unionist 'strongholds' up North. They beat the s*** out of each other on the pitch, and afterwards they'd hit the bar afterwards and have the craic. No sectarian chants, no cold shoulders, no bitter words. Just a bunch of young lads having a few, with rugby as the common ground.

Trips to Dublin by Ulster Protestants to watch our united sporting team and especially Ulster's appearance in the 1999 Heineken Cup final, helped ease the perception, that the south was a bandit land with everyone snarling for Unionist blood. Rugby has helped heal wounds, which is a stark contrast to some of the activities of the association football (North and South) & GAA, in the same period.

jacothelad

Well said. Pretty much spot on.

Snickers Man

jacothelad wrote: »

I suppose from the perspective of a member of the Unionist community who is British by heritage, not choice and having an enduring love of both all of Ireland and rugby,'

Great to hear somebody from an Ulster Unionist background give their opinion.

In order to venture mine, and not wishing to speak for people who are evidently perfectly capable of speaking for themselves, I should perhaps state that I am a southern born but northern raised and now southern living again Fenian who spent about ten years living in England. (Any baggage sir?)

I played mini rugby in the north when I was a kid. It was an initiative sponsored by the local rugby club, which was naturally enough almost exclusively protestant/unionist in membership but was trying to attract kids from the local catholic schools to take an interest in the game. The interest has never left me.

My impression about Irish rugby and its extraordinary success in keeping cross-border cross-community support for an all-Ireland team for the best part of a century is that it has always been politically aware without being politically ostentatious. It doesn't throw shapes or make sweeping declarations of inclusivity; instead it goes about its business influencing by example.

On the issue of flags and emblems, this has always seemed to me to be handed from the point of view of diplomacy. How can we get men from both sides of the border and divide to play together without insulting or causing embarrassment to either? A long time ago it was decided that Amhran na bhFiann was appropriate as the anthem when the team played in Dublin (or Cork or Limerick as used to happen) but that when the team played overseas, no anthem would be played at all.

This arrangement was forced to an end by the emergence of the World Cup and the concept of neutral venues. Hence Ireland's Call. I have no problem whatsoever with the concept of Ireland's Call; I just wish it was a better song.

Part of the trade off, it has seemed to me, has been the continued existence and support for the British (and Irish) Lions. Good Unionist boys from Antrim and Tyrone would play for Ireland in front of the Irish president; serving members of the Irish armed forces would play for (and in one case captain) the Lions. Admittedly, some more diplomacy has come into play in recent years with the emphasis on "and Irish" in any utterance of the team's name. I know more than one Scot and Welshman who is a little irked by this but it's a small price to pay, in my view, for the continuing tradition.

The bottom line is that the Irish team is not meant to be a political agent, either for nationalism or unionism. Rather it is a forum where sportsmen, and their supporters, from both sides of the border, geographical and philosophical, can come together, form friendships and alliances, bust their guts for each other and not have their identity or outlook impugned in any way. At the end of the day, rugby is only a game. It's as much an escape from the "real world" as it is a product of it.

Traditionally, the instinctive way to do this has been to put actions before words. The team continues to play together, supporters continue to support it. Don't mention the war.

Willie John McBride, for example, has always said "Irish rugby doesn't get involved in politics" This is only partially true. Irish rugby is keenly aware of politics. And tries to let sleeping dogs lie.

I personally find the idea of playing God Save the Queen as an Irish team's anthem a step too far. So did many of the southerners in the 1950s as Frank Keating found out. I would love to see more internationals played in appropriate stadia around the country but contractually this is not possible at the moment. Were the Irish team ever to play in Belfast again, I bet my bottom dollar that an appropriate compromise would be reached. Neither Amhran na bhFiann nor GSTQ. Maybe Ireland's Call only, maybe in conjunction with Danny Boy or something else appropriately regional.

After all, the Scots no longer play God Save the Queen as their anthem. They did, right up until the 1980s and it was always whistled off the park by the spectators. I have already posted elsewhere a clip from the 1960s where it appears the Welsh also played God Save the Queen, as well as their own magnificent anthem, before their home games. You can see what the crowd thought of it.

I will end on a final note. It appears that many of those questioning on the one hand why we don't play Amhran na bhFiann outside of Ireland (a familiar topic) and now the more obtuse question of why don't we play in the north and stand for GSTQ come from outside the traditional rugby community.

This is only to be expected given rugby's raised profile in recent years thanks to the comparative success of the Irish team. Fair enough. You broaden your wings, you have to expect curious newcomers to ask questions.

All I would say is: Irish rugby has done pretty well keeping the show on the road through all the trouble and strife of the 20th century. Cut them some slack.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiF4QI5nIIY

What God Save the Queen would probably sound like in Ravenhill

Jawgap

jony_dols wrote: »

On the point of inclusiveness, rugby is one of the only sports in Ireland to break down sectarian divides, especially during the 70's and 80's. My Dad played with one of the Limerick teams, during the Troubles. Like him, most of his teammates were Catholic, with no airs or graces attached.

They used to travel up to play in Belfast and other Unionist 'strongholds' up North. They beat the s*** out of each other on the pitch, and afterwards they'd hit the bar afterwards and have the craic. No sectarian chants, no cold shoulders, no bitter words. Just a bunch of young lads having a few, with rugby as the common ground.

Trips to Dublin by Ulster Protestants to watch our united sporting team and especially Ulster's appearance in the 1999 Heineken Cup final, helped ease the perception, that the south was a bandit land with everyone snarling for Unionist blood. Rugby has helped heal wounds, which is a stark contrast to some of the activities of the association football (North and South) & GAA, in the same period.

Yeah I certainly remember heading North to play matches during the 80s and the teams up there being so appreciative of the fact that we'd traveled.

Like you said - absolutely no compromising on the pitch but the hospitality afterwards was always unreal.

Yeah_Right

iamironman87 wrote: »

Some people think rugby league is better than rugby union. It takes all sorts.

And obviously they'd be wrong.

irishbucsfan

Yeah_Right wrote: »

And obviously they'd be wrong.

Ah that's not really fair. It's just a development sport for future union players, a bit like 7s, so we shouldn't really compare it directly.

Jawgap

Perhaps relevant to the discussion on rugby's inclusivity......

https://twitter.com/nigelrefowens/status/659067061352710144

Cu Choileain

Snickers Man wrote: »

Maybe Ireland's Call only, maybe in conjunction with Danny Boy or something else appropriately regional.

Good post; enjoyed the read.

I think sport is inherently political by virtue of the fact that those who engage in it are people with personal identities who can disagree on any particular matter, but I appreciate your sentiment in terms of rugby trying to rise above that which is overtly political.

Wasn't it 'Ireland's Call' only that was played in 2007 in Ravenhill? I thought that to be more indicative of disparity in terms of symbolic representation rather than a show of compromise.

seachto7

I see that there was a bit of a hoo haw today and yesterday up north because the Ulster team didn't have the poppy on their jersey.

Here is their response to the hoo haw:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-34768002

RuggieBear

poppy debate can be had elsewhere