Some advice needed

helimachoptor

Hi folks, currently renovating a 3 bed semi D in south dublin.

there is a wired alarm there at present, once carpets etc lifted we can see the cables running through the house to the various access points and there's one PIR (motion sensor) downstairs in the hall way.

There's a HKC panel in the hallway aswell.

We are replacing windows (next saturday)

My questions..

- Can the existing wiring be re-used and the window points be replaced?
- If so what type of saving will this generate?
- What would a quote be for the below (wired) from scratch?

3 doors (front, back single, back double)
3 small windows
6 big windows
2 PIRs
2 remote fobs

Any other info i should be aware of? Also any recommendations on an installer?

kub

Yes assuming that the existing wiring infrastructure is in a good condition, it can be reused, but i would advise your flooring contractors to be wary of the cables, one slip of a Stanley knife and that could be that and difficult to locate.
You could of course go wireless but you would probably have to update your panel, but this is an expensive option.
Wireless is great but they run on batteries that have to be changed every few years.

With regard to quotes or recommendations, that is not allowed here so i would encourage you to contact at least 3 local installers on the PSA website, get their quotes in a written format, ideally as a System Design Proposal which is a requirement of the EN50131 standard.

helimachoptor

cheers for the info Kub, have requested a good few quotes so will see comes back.

kub

If you are any way confused or need our input please feel welcome to come back to us.

helimachoptor

Have spoken to a couple of companies today and they are pushing the PIR only route, any thoughts on this approach?

KoolKid

helimachoptor wrote: »

Have spoken to a couple of companies today and they are pushing the PIR only route, any thoughts on this approach?

Yes.
Keep away from that type of system & keep away from those trying to sell it to you. They are more interested in a handy install rather than your security.
A system like this will only inform you after an intruder has already gained entry to your property.
A good security system is as much about prevention.

helimachoptor

KoolKid wrote: »

Yes.
Keep away from that type of system & keep away from those trying to sell it to you. They are more interested in a handy install rather than your security.
A system like this will only inform you after an intruder has already gained entry to your property.
A good security system is as much about prevention.

Cheers, had a crappy wireless (on windows) one a good few years back, but both companies insisting they had come on.

Below is what I've received from another company, it's confusing me a little as there's quite a few wireless mentions.

I sent requests for about 11 quotes when i made the post, only 3 replies (2 wireless and the below)


I am now pleased to provide you with an accurate quotation based on the information provided
as per details received on the 27/10/2015
Thank you for considering X; a fully PSA & NSAI registered Company, installing security systems 1986,
I hope this proposal meets with your approval.
I would now like to offer the following specification in full compliance with current IS.EN 50131-1 Alarm standards.
A Professional HKC Hybrid Ready (RF) System _ using Duplex technology. (868Mhz) This a high quality system
manufactured to the highest finishes in Ireland by HKC.
There are many “entry level systems” and “budget type systems” been installed, however I note these are just not
comparable to the HKC – Securewave System. I would be glad to explain this in more detail if you wish. I also provide
a link to HKC’s website at the foot of this email if you would like to find out more about the product itself.
Please note the following:
This specification is based upon information you have provided, be sure your happy with the specification below.
We have included any items which are needed to complete either the system or to meet compliance (standards).
If you need to clarify any aspect below simply contact us 01 465 9090
This installation is based on a “Wired Alarm System” e.g .” Pre-wired”.
General specification: (Supply & Install / Commission).
1 HKC 1070 Hybrid Alarm Control Panel
1 HKC Remote Key Pad (RKP)
1 External Bell Box (SABB)
1 Internal Siren
1 Passive Infa Red (Detector) recommended
1 Electrical Point/Spur Unit
1 Back up reserve battery
1 Door Contact / Window / Velux
11 HKC Inertia window & door shock sensors
Based upon above specification a fully pre-wired system installed is €697 Including Vat @ 13.5%
See available options below for self-monitoring options and interlinked smoke alarm details
Price includes removing old system.
Available Options to your above system:
SELF- Monitoring Options: ( Voice / Text to Mobiles ) or to ARC**
To supply and install “GSM_Q to your system” to either text or call you (by voice message)
You will be able to have full remote access your system (arm/disarming and other features).
€185.00 + vat @ 13.5%
Sim card can be provided or Client supplied.
It is presumed a satisfactory mobile signal is available in your area.

[or] X RECOMMEND'S

SELF- Monitoring Options: ( Connect to your Smart Mobile via APP (Application) ) or to ARC**
To supply and install “GSM-SC to your notify you directly on your phone(s) by installed APP (€7.99 App)
You will be able to have full remote access your system (arm/disarming and other features).
You can view your system Live; have full Key Pad remote access (emulation) read system log's and control outputs!
You will receive real time alarm notifications directly to your phone.
€150.00 + vat @ 13.5% (Limited Offer Only)
System is also polled every 60mins to ensure prevent RF Jamming of signals making it very secure.
This service will have a monthly fixed subscription of €4.99 inc.vat by SRC Limited, unlimited access thereafter.
It is presumed a satisfactory mobile data signal is available in your area.
[or]
To supply and install a Digi Communicator** to signal via house telephone fixed line either “Voice” or “TEXT”
No annual monitoring fee) to your mobile(s). €160.00 inclusive of vat @ 13.5%
Note:
** You can also be monitored directly to a Alarm Receiving Centre (ARC) for the same installation cost; however the
option of “annual remote monitoring” for a fee of €184.00 is payable directly to the central station, Top Security.

Other options include:
To supply and install a second “remote keypad” to Master Bedroom (once pre-wired)
€120.00 inclusive of vat @ 13.5%
Fully Wireless Keypad option is also available €150.00 inc.vat
[or]
To supply and install a Panic Button to Master bedroom (once pre-wired)
€56.00 inclusive of vat @ 13.5%
[or]
To supply and install a wireless key fob with Panic Button and remote setting & Unsetting of system
€69.00 (See Illustration) inclusive of vat @ 13.5%
And finally:
To supply and install a wireless smoke detector to the Hall (and will also send voice message or contact
fire brigade if monitored) € 119.00 inclusive of vat @ 13.5%
Summary Benefits:

1 Installation will be to current NSAI / EN5013-1 and optional certification is then available.
2 System fully acceptable to all insurance companies (grade 2 class 2)
3 One Years Maintenance Optional (Service due after the first twelve months)
4 Certificate also provided upon request of completion (NSAI) to certify installation meets EN5013-1 Standard
5 System 1070 HKC Panel – Hybrid Complete with RF Wireless detection devices.
6 A user recordable short message feature is available on unsetting of the system.
7 Additional 24hour Panic Alarm feature available at the remote Keypad .
8 Back up power reserve for minimum of 12 hours.
9 Full alarm activation "short log" available to user - up to 250 event log available to X Engineer.
10 Full demonstration included after installation and a full 12 month warranty is inclusive.
11 Option to have Full monitoring or Text dialling fitted to system or remote access via your mobile phone!
12 All Installations are be carried out by qualified Alarm Engineers whom also are qualified Electricians
Please note:
I hope this proposal is to your satisfaction and should wish to proceed with the above alarm installation,
I will forward a formal quotation for your acceptance and we can schedule a date that suits you.

KoolKid

Ok
I will just give you my opinion on some of this.
I don't know who this quote is from, so let me clarify this is just my honest & professional opinion based on what you posted. It is in no way an attack on the individual or company,

He seems very intent on offering you just the one system & is going out of his way to tell you how great it is without offering any alternative.
As I always say , I am always weary of the one trick ponies. And that would be in any industry not just mine.
This statement
manufactured to the highest finishes in Ireland
would be more accurate if it said assembled in Ireland.
He thanks you for considering a licenced installer but then goes on to attack “entry level systems” and “budget type systems”. If you are using PSA licenced installers all quotations you are getting would be up to the same standard.

Price includes removing old system.
This is standard practice

On the app options I would advise shopping around most other systems don't charge for apps or for their use. All the live features explained are standard.
The polling time of 60 minutes is no way secure IMO. Other offer much faster notification times without any charges.
GSD can be set to notify you in 5 minutes
Siemens/Vanderbilt can be set as low as 20 seconds without paying for the service.
Has he explained there are other free options available
€184 for domestic monitoring alone is a bit on the high side. Again I'd recommend shopping around.

System fully acceptable to all insurance companies (grade 2 class 2)
This is a dangerous statement and could land you with a null & void insurance claim. The system will only be grade 2 if monitored.

Certificate also provided upon request of completion (NSAI) to certify installation meets EN5013-1 Standard
This is not a benefit of any system its compulsory
Back up power reserve for minimum of 12 hours.
This is not a benefit of any system its compulsory
Full demonstration included after installation and a full 12 month warranty is inclusive.
This is not a benefit of any system its compulsory

DublinDilbert

I would look at Siemens/Vanderbilt as per KoolKids post above. Very impressed with the system over all and the App is excellent. There's no need to have remote keypads installed in the house when 90% of the time you'll be near your phone/tablet and can do anything a keypad can do.

fred funk }{

helimachoptor wrote: »

Cheers, had a crappy wireless (on windows) one a good few years back, but both companies insisting they had come on.

Below is what I've received from another company, it's confusing me a little as there's quite a few wireless mentions.

I sent requests for about 11 quotes when i made the post, only 3 replies (2 wireless and the below)


I am now pleased to provide you with an accurate quotation based on the information provided
as per details received on the 27/10/2015
Thank you for considering X; a fully PSA & NSAI registered Company, installing security systems 1986,
I hope this proposal meets with your approval.
I would now like to offer the following specification in full compliance with current IS.EN 50131-1 Alarm standards.
A Professional HKC Hybrid Ready (RF) System _ using Duplex technology. (868Mhz) This a high quality system
manufactured to the highest finishes in Ireland by HKC.
There are many “entry level systems” and “budget type systems” been installed, however I note these are just not
comparable to the HKC – Securewave System. I would be glad to explain this in more detail if you wish. I also provide
a link to HKC’s website at the foot of this email if you would like to find out more about the product itself.
Please note the following:
This specification is based upon information you have provided, be sure your happy with the specification below.
We have included any items which are needed to complete either the system or to meet compliance (standards).
If you need to clarify any aspect below simply contact us 01 465 9090
This installation is based on a “Wired Alarm System” e.g .” Pre-wired”.
General specification: (Supply & Install / Commission).
1 HKC 1070 Hybrid Alarm Control Panel
1 HKC Remote Key Pad (RKP)
1 External Bell Box (SABB)
1 Internal Siren
1 Passive Infa Red (Detector) recommended
1 Electrical Point/Spur Unit
1 Back up reserve battery
1 Door Contact / Window / Velux
11 HKC Inertia window & door shock sensors
Based upon above specification a fully pre-wired system installed is €697 Including Vat @ 13.5%
See available options below for self-monitoring options and interlinked smoke alarm details
Price includes removing old system.
Available Options to your above system:
SELF- Monitoring Options: ( Voice / Text to Mobiles ) or to ARC**
To supply and install “GSM_Q to your system” to either text or call you (by voice message)
You will be able to have full remote access your system (arm/disarming and other features).
€185.00 + vat @ 13.5%
Sim card can be provided or Client supplied.
It is presumed a satisfactory mobile signal is available in your area.

[or] X RECOMMEND'S

SELF- Monitoring Options: ( Connect to your Smart Mobile via APP (Application) ) or to ARC**
To supply and install “GSM-SC to your notify you directly on your phone(s) by installed APP (€7.99 App)
You will be able to have full remote access your system (arm/disarming and other features).
You can view your system Live; have full Key Pad remote access (emulation) read system log's and control outputs!
You will receive real time alarm notifications directly to your phone.
€150.00 + vat @ 13.5% (Limited Offer Only)
System is also polled every 60mins to ensure prevent RF Jamming of signals making it very secure.
This service will have a monthly fixed subscription of €4.99 inc.vat by SRC Limited, unlimited access thereafter.
It is presumed a satisfactory mobile data signal is available in your area.
[or]
To supply and install a Digi Communicator** to signal via house telephone fixed line either “Voice” or “TEXT”
No annual monitoring fee) to your mobile(s). €160.00 inclusive of vat @ 13.5%
Note:
** You can also be monitored directly to a Alarm Receiving Centre (ARC) for the same installation cost; however the
option of “annual remote monitoring” for a fee of €184.00 is payable directly to the central station, Top Security.

Other options include:
To supply and install a second “remote keypad” to Master Bedroom (once pre-wired)
€120.00 inclusive of vat @ 13.5%
Fully Wireless Keypad option is also available €150.00 inc.vat
[or]
To supply and install a Panic Button to Master bedroom (once pre-wired)
€56.00 inclusive of vat @ 13.5%
[or]
To supply and install a wireless key fob with Panic Button and remote setting & Unsetting of system
€69.00 (See Illustration) inclusive of vat @ 13.5%
And finally:
To supply and install a wireless smoke detector to the Hall (and will also send voice message or contact
fire brigade if monitored) € 119.00 inclusive of vat @ 13.5%
Summary Benefits:

1 Installation will be to current NSAI / EN5013-1 and optional certification is then available.
2 System fully acceptable to all insurance companies (grade 2 class 2)
3 One Years Maintenance Optional (Service due after the first twelve months)
4 Certificate also provided upon request of completion (NSAI) to certify installation meets EN5013-1 Standard
5 System 1070 HKC Panel – Hybrid Complete with RF Wireless detection devices.
6 A user recordable short message feature is available on unsetting of the system.
7 Additional 24hour Panic Alarm feature available at the remote Keypad .
8 Back up power reserve for minimum of 12 hours.
9 Full alarm activation "short log" available to user - up to 250 event log available to X Engineer.
10 Full demonstration included after installation and a full 12 month warranty is inclusive.
11 Option to have Full monitoring or Text dialling fitted to system or remote access via your mobile phone!
12 All Installations are be carried out by qualified Alarm Engineers whom also are qualified Electricians
Please note:
I hope this proposal is to your satisfaction and should wish to proceed with the above alarm installation,
I will forward a formal quotation for your acceptance and we can schedule a date that suits you.

Looks a decent quotation and certainly not expensive. HKC are the leading brand in Ireland because it's very good gear with little or no reliability issues, we certainly don't be back to jobs once installed.

HKC will do whatever 99.99% of users will ever want their system to do, that's why most installers recommend it.