Palestinian youth fly the Tricolour while stopping the IDF entering their communities

LordSutch

Nodin wrote: »

...many of them are becoming the product of their own occupation. To occupy requires brutality. Do it often enough and long enough and there is a very good chance you will become a brute. A number of Israelis have written on the subject.

I know Israel and I know the Israelis, and I see whay they are the way they are, > guns always cocked, hands always on hilt... just in case. they're always very edgy (National service for all).

Mind you, if you're worried that ther'ye might be a bomb on the Haifa bus, or that they're might be something more that a spare tyre in the boot of a dodgy looking car, then it goes someway to explaining why they are the way they are.

Of course thats only a small part of the picture, but it needs to be said.

Nodin

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It's a bit more complicated than that and you know it. Jews are far more native to the Levant than Arabs.

The great amorphous homogenous mass of the Arabs, eh?

You might, at some stage, take a look at the genetic research on the Palestinian and Israeli populations.

steddyeddy

LordSutch wrote: »

Maybe? but they are a product of their geography, hemmed in as they are by hostile neighbours.

Well maybe but looking at the facts it doesn't add up. I think Zionism is some form of perceived supremacy. You could say they are under threat from their neighbors and that makes them wary. The problem there is their neighbors are under threat from them. The Zionists see themselves as a "chosen people" because an old book said so. They also see themselves as having a right to take land they believe is theirs because a book said so. Genetically Palestinians are more or less the same as Jews and they both originate from the same land. Awkward.

Now that deals with the neighbors. How do the Israelis treat their own people? Not so good unfortunately. Ethiopian Jews experience racism on a daily basis. They're Jews but not the right colour of Jew for some people. If you're a Jew that doesn't speak Hebrew well that doesn't go down very well either. Hebrew is not so much encouraged as enforced. It's a cult.

Nodin

LordSutch wrote: »

I know Israel and I know the Israelis, and I see whay they are the way they are, > guns always cocked, hands always on hilt... just in case. they're always very edgy (National service for all).

Mind you, if you're worried that ther'ye might be a bomb on the Haifa bus, or that they're might be something more that a spare tyre in the boot of a dodgy looking car, then it goes someway to explaining why they are the way they are.

Of course thats only a small part of the picture, but it needs to be said.

Not really, as it paints the Israeli state as victim and passive, as opposed to the reality, which is a an expansionist program of colony building outside its legally recognised borders. You seem to have an innate ability to steer clear of the occupation, regardless of how its mentioned. I'd say you should take a long hard look at it before coming out with the kind of nonsense above.

steddyeddy

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It's a bit more complicated than that and you know it. Jews are far more native to the Levant than Arabs.

No it's not. Genetic studies tell us that Palestinians and Jews share a common homeland and are more or less the same peoples.

It's a bit like the Tutsis and the hutus of Rwanda. Basically they're the same tribe but somewhere along the line (Belgian colonialism) they were given the idea that they were different.

Fratton Fred

steddyeddy wrote: »

A friend of mine plays in a band alongside other Europeans. He's the only one from Ireland and anytime they go to Israel he's the only one who's stopped again and again. He's also asked is he a republican.

You know people who have flown to Israel and DIDN'T get stopped at the airport?

LordSutch

Nodin wrote: »

Not really, as it paints the Israeli state as victim and passive, as opposed to the reality, which is a an expansionist program of colony building outside its legally recognised borders. You seem to have an innate ability to steer clear of the occupation, regardless of how its mentioned. I'd say you should take a long hard look at it before coming out with the kind of nonsense above.

I did say... "Of course thats only a small part of the picture, but it needs to be said"

part of the picture you obviously don't like.

Nodin

LordSutch wrote: »

You may protest, but as I said "Of course thats only a small part of the picture, but it needs to be said"

> part of the picture you obviously don't like.

As I pointed out not long ago here on another thread on another subject, its by presenting a selected picture (or in this case a "small part of the picture) that one can distort the truth. Whatever violence Israel faces from Israel is by and large as a result of its occupation and colonisation. What you are essentially doing is describing a man who is terrified and in hiding but not mentioning the fact that the individual is terrified and in hiding because he has committed a murder and robbery.

steddyeddy

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You know people who have flown to Israel and DIDN'T get stopped at the airport?

Stopped and detained.

LordSutch

Nodin wrote: »

As I pointed out not long ago here on another thread on another subject, its by presenting a selected picture (or in this case a "small part of the picture) that one can distort the truth. Whatever violence Israel faces from Israel is by and large as a result of its occupation and colonisation. What you are essentially doing is describing a man who is terrified and in hiding but not mentioning the fact that the individual is terrified and in hiding because he has committed a murder and robbery.

What I have portrayed is a part of the picture you would never portray.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=97513474&postcount=152

What do you not understand about "A small part of the picture" ?

I mean to say, are you soo blind by hate towards them, as to not see what I have said?

R P McMurphy

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It's a bit more complicated than that and you know it. Jews are far more native to the Levant than Arabs.

Than what Arabs? Leaving aside the inaccuracy in your point. What difference would that make? Would it give someone in Yonkers with a Jewish granny any rights to land in Palestine?

steddyeddy

Some Jews are Arabs and some Arabs are Jews.

arybvtcw0eolkf

steddyeddy wrote: »

A friend of mine plays in a band alongside other Europeans. He's the only one from Ireland and anytime they go to Israel he's the only one who's stopped again and again. He's also asked is he a republican.

Tbh unless your friend has given them reason to profile him he's spoofing you.

I've traveled through Ben Gurion airport from Europe and Cyprus, I've also sailed from Cyprus into Haifa and have never been asked was I a republican.

But I've been stopped and questioned in detail each and every time, this is routine for everyone entering and leaving Israel.

In fact I've often found boarding a flight or ship FROM Israel can be harder than actually entering the place.

Keplar240B

PhotoShop?

steddyeddy

Audrina Billions Fence wrote: »

Tbh unless your friend has given them reason to profile him he's spoofing you.

I've traveled through Ben Gurion airport from Europe and Cyprus, I've also sailed from Cyprus into Haifa and have never been asked was I a republican.

But I've been stopped and questioned in detail each and every time, this is routine for everyone entering and leaving Israel.

In fact I've often found boarding a flight or ship FROM Israel can be harder than actually entering the place.

Bollox dude. Met enough travellers with similar stories. Even a few on this thread.

steddyeddy

steddyeddy wrote: »

Bollox dude. Met enough travellers with similar stories. Even a few on this thread.

Ha ha!

Good that someone has injected humour into the thread!

"Sure what would you know about it with your repeated travels there, I heard a story from someone and I will even swear to add emphasis to my hearsay".

steddyeddy

Deleted User wrote: »

Ha ha!

Good that someone has injected humour into the thread!

"Sure what would you know about it with your repeated travels there, I heard a story from someone and I will even swear to add emphasis to my hearsay".

Not a lot apparently considering the treatment of Irish citizens by Israel isn't good reading. I guess everyone that was treated terribly by Israeli's brought it on themselves :pac:. Yes that's right I'm completely willing to forget previous Ireland-Israeli relations because someone on the thread says it was misunderstanding.

steddyeddy

An article on how Irish-Israeli relations are viewed:

JNS.org – The Irish and Jewish people share a common history of both suffering cruel persecution and achieving national redemption against immeasurable odds. But today, Ireland is one of Europe’s fiercest critics of Israel. The Irish government and prominent Irish NGOs frequently condemn Israel for its treatment of Palestinians, and they are pushing a boycott of the Jewish state.
Countering this trend is a small, yet passionate, contingent of pro-Israel Irish groups seeking to create more positive relations between these similar nations.
“On a national level, since the late 1950s, Ireland has considered a solution to the conflict in general, and a solution of the Palestinian refugee issue in particular, as one of its top foreign policy priorities in the Middle East,” Irish-born Professor Rory Miller, who is director of the Middle East and Mediterranean Studies Program at King’s College in London and author of Ireland and the Palestine Question 1948-2004, told JNS.org.
Irish-Jewish relations haven’t always been this sour. In the early 20th century, many Irish leaders were sympathetic to the Jewish people, with the Irish drawing heavily on historical parallels with Jews, including their suffering, the large-scale migration of Irish in the 19th century, and their upward struggle for national self-determination against the British.
But following Israel’s independence in 1948, Irish sympathies inexplicably shifted. The Irish no longer viewed Israel as the underdog struggling for its national rights, but instead as a foreign occupier on someone else’s land—the Palestinians—similar to the Irish experience with British control over Northern Ireland.
Ireland did not extend recognition to Israel until 1963 and did not establish an embassy in Tel Aviv until 1996. Furthermore, Ireland was one of the first European countries to call for a Palestinian state in 1980 and has insistently focused on the Palestinian refugee issue.
Today, despite its subordinate position within the European Union behind such larger powers as the U.K., France and Germany, Ireland has played an outsized role as a voice on matters concerning Israel and the Arab-Israeli conflict.
Current Irish Foreign Affairs Minister and Deputy Prime Minister (known as the Tanaiste in Gaelic) Eamon Gilmore has been one of Ireland’s most outspoken critics of Israel. Last month, Gilmore, who is a member of the left-wing Irish Labor Party, announced that Ireland would embark on a campaign to urge fellow EU states to label Israeli products from the West Bank as “settler” products, and to eventually encourage a boycott.
“Settlements on the West Bank are illegal, and therefore the produce of those settlements should be treated as illegal throughout the European Union,” Gilmore said in May, according to the Jerusalem Post.
Ireland’s policies have also targeted Israel on other fronts. In early June, Israeli government officials accused the Irish government of being behind the opposition within the EU to label the military wing of Hezbollah as a terrorist organization.

arybvtcw0eolkf

steddyeddy wrote: »

Bollox dude. Met enough travellers with similar stories. Even a few on this thread.

Ok, then I'll be straight with you ~ and remember I'm one with a proven record of travel in the region here in this forum. And I don't post populist crap...

Your story or your friend is a spoof, you choose. I couldn't really care less.

So I won't be getting into it any further with you. One of you is spoofing.

steddyeddy

Audrina Billions Fence wrote: »

Ok, then I'll be straight with you ~ and remember I'm one with a proven record of travel in the region here in this forum. And I don't post populist crap...

Your story or your friend is a spoof, you choose. I couldn't really care less.

So I won't be getting into it any further with you. One of you is spoofing.

Great dude we'll agree to disagree

jank

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well maybe but looking at the facts it doesn't add up. I think Zionism is some form of perceived supremacy. You could say they are under threat from their neighbors and that makes them wary. The problem there is their neighbors are under threat from them. The Zionists see themselves as a "chosen people" because an old book said so. They also see themselves as having a right to take land they believe is theirs because a book said so. Genetically Palestinians are more or less the same as Jews and they both originate from the same land. Awkward.

Now that deals with the neighbors. How do the Israelis treat their own people? Not so good unfortunately. Ethiopian Jews experience racism on a daily basis. They're Jews but not the right colour of Jew for some people. If you're a Jew that doesn't speak Hebrew well that doesn't go down very well either. Hebrew is not so much encouraged as enforced. It's a cult.

Grossly inaccurate. Zionism is not about the Jewish religion per say. When the movement was born at the end of the 19th century it was almost an entirely secular movement founded by secular Jews (Theodor Herzl for example was a secular Jew) as a response to European mainstream anti-antisemitism to secular Jews (Dreyfus affair anyone?). It is entirely possible to be a Zionist atheist for example.

BlaasForRafa

Nodin wrote: »

Isn't krav maga designed for use on old women and people having guns pointed at them?

"back to the language of demonization, hate and fear mongering."

TomBtheGoat

LordSutch wrote: »

I know Israel and I know the Israelis, and I see whay they are the way they are, > guns always cocked, hands always on hilt... just in case.

Well when you're part of a brutal occupation that has murdered civilians with complete abandon for decades. Then having to keep looking over their shoulders is the least you'd expect.

TomBtheGoat

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

"back to the language of demonization, hate and fear mongering."

Nah, the IDF own the patent on that mate.

Nodin

LordSutch wrote: »

What I have portrayed is a part of the picture you would never portray.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=97513474&postcount=152

What do you not understand about "A small part of the picture" ?

I mean to say, are you soo blind by hate towards them, as to not see what I have said?

As stated before, you don't place that violence in its context, thus portraying the Israeli state as victim. It's entirely unrepresentative of the situation as a whole and ignores the occupation. As I haven't left anything out (and you still haven't dealt with the occupation) I'd say its not my eyesight that is in question.

LordSutch

Nodin wrote: »

As stated before, you don't place that violence in its context, thus portraying the Israeli state as victim. It's entirely unrepresentative of the situation as a whole and ignores the occupation. As I haven't left anything out (and you still haven't dealt with the occupation) I'd say its not my eyesight that is in question.

You Nodin will always deal with the "occupation" aspect, but what I have said "regardless of context" is interesting is it not? (I was not talking about the situation as a whole).

You can give your version of the context, but I have given a tiny insight into the Israeli mindset in post#152 as witnessed by me, and that's all. I'm not even arguing or debating the overall context ....

I just gave a small part of the picture that I have witnessed first hand < that's what I said..

Now you can carry on with your agenda.

Adios.

Gringo180

One thing I can never seem to understand is the support the Israeli state gets in here, and by the same people who would denounce Russian annexation of Crimea. I just think deep down they see the Palestinian people and Arabs in general as sub human. It sickens me.

Gringo180

Gringo180 wrote: »

One thing I can never seem to understand is the support the Israeli state gets in here, and by the same people who would denounce Russian annexation of Crimea. I just think deep down they see the Palestinian people and Arabs in general as sub human. It sickens me.

Hmmm.

I wonder does that work the other way.

"One thing I can never seem to understand is the support terrorist groups like Hamas get in here...I just think deep down they see the Israeli people and Jews in general as sub human. It sickens me".

Why yes, evidently we can all deal with the issue in manner you do.

Gringo180

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Hmmm.

I wonder does that work the other way.

"One thing I can never seem to understand is the support terrorist groups like Hamas get in here...I just think deep down they see the Israeli people and Jews in general as sub human. It sickens me".

Why yes, evidently we can all deal with the issue in manner you do.

I dont support Hamas and dont recall anybody posting there support for them on here? But even before there creation the Israeli's continued to build illegal settlements? Diplomacy never worked as you seen with the Oslo accord. So what way can the Palestinian people halt the illegal building of settlements? Should they just roll over and die?

Gringo180

Gringo180 wrote: »

I dont support Hamas and dont recall anybody posting there support for them on here? But even before there creation the Israeli's continued to build illegal settlements? Diplomacy never worked as you seen with the Oslo accord. So what way can the Palestinian people halt the illegal building of settlements? Should they just roll over and die?

Who are you arguing about over settlements? Haven't read back but not sure I can recall much support for them. You have made a sweeping statement, that those who "support" Israel as seeing Palestinians as sub human. It seems to be based on the settlement issue.

Gringo180

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Who are you arguing about over settlements? Haven't read back but not sure I can recall much support for them. You have made a sweeping statement, that those who "support" Israel as seeing Palestinians as sub human. It seems to be based on the settlement issue.

You mentioned Hamas and I am telling you they only exist because the Israeli's keep on building illegal settlements on Palestinian land, talking didnt work so the only route now to take is an armed struggle which they have every right to do.

end of the road

Deleted User wrote: »

Hmmm.

I wonder does that work the other way.

"One thing I can never seem to understand is the support terrorist groups like Hamas get in here...I just think deep down they see the Israeli people and Jews in general as sub human. It sickens me".

Why yes, evidently we can all deal with the issue in manner you do.

the israely government and military are terrorists.

Deleted User wrote: »

Hmmm.

I wonder does that work the other way.

"One thing I can never seem to understand is the support terrorist groups like Hamas get in here...I just think deep down they see the Israeli people and Jews in general as sub human. It sickens me".

Why yes, evidently we can all deal with the issue in manner you do.

the israely government and military are terrorists. nobody here sees the jews as sub-human. however the extreme elements such as those in control of israel, and their supporters are of the exact same mindset as isis

steddyeddy

jank wrote: »

Grossly inaccurate. Zionism is not about the Jewish religion per say. When the movement was born at the end of the 19th century it was almost an entirely secular movement founded by secular Jews (Theodor Herzl for example was a secular Jew) as a response to European mainstream anti-antisemitism to secular Jews (Dreyfus affair anyone?). It is entirely possible to be a Zionist atheist for example.

You start of by saying Zionism "is not" and back up the argument by saying what it was.

the evasion_kid

Anyone that's pulls up deckchairs to watch the bombing of a settlement like going to the cinema is beyond subhuman in my eyes.

Dan_Solo

jank wrote: »

Grossly inaccurate. Zionism is not about the Jewish religion per say. When the movement was born at the end of the 19th century it was almost an entirely secular movement founded by secular Jews (Theodor Herzl for example was a secular Jew) as a response to European mainstream anti-antisemitism to secular Jews (Dreyfus affair anyone?). It is entirely possible to be a Zionist atheist for example.

So Zionism is an entirely racist rather than an entirely religious ideal?
Gee, that helps.

Nodin

LordSutch wrote: »

You Nodin will always deal with the "occupation" aspect, but what I have said "regardless of context" is interesting is it not?.

Wow, the occupier has to worry about some consequences for their actions...me heart bleeds.

Why did you put occupation in quotation marks?

jank

steddyeddy wrote: »

You start of by saying Zionism "is not" and back up the argument by saying what it was.

Not sure if this is an actual rebuttal to any point I raised.

the evasion_kid

the evasion_kid wrote: »

Anyone that's pulls up deckchairs to watch the bombing of a settlement like going to the cinema is beyond subhuman in my eyes.

How about crowds celebrating a lynching by passing around human organs gouged out of the bodies?

jank

Dan_Solo wrote: »

So Zionism is an entirely racist rather than an entirely religious ideal?
Gee, that helps.

Zionism much like all other late 19th century nationalistic movements was centered around the idea of a nation state for people who were culturally alike and who shared common traditions/languages/morals etc..

Zionism was no more or less nationalistic than early 20th century Irish Republicanism for example.

steddyeddy

jank wrote: »

Not sure if this is an actual rebuttal to any point I raised.

You're point related to the 19th century not this one.

the evasion_kid

[Deleted User] wrote: »

How about crowds celebrating a lynching by passing around human organs gouged out of the bodies?

If I recall correctly tensions were running high at the time,with Israelis having killed scores of Palestinians in the weeks before including minors,a bit like the corporal killings in the north....wrong place at the wrong time.

the evasion_kid

the evasion_kid wrote: »

If I recall correctly tensions were running high at the time,with Israelis having killed scores of Palestinians in the weeks before including minors,a bit like the corporal killings in the north....wrong place at the wrong time.

Does that make it fine to have kids running around with delight at the sight of eyes being gouged out and intestines being pulled from bodies?

Is it really one of the things Palestinians do to release tension?

jank

steddyeddy wrote: »

You're point related to the 19th century not this one.

So it was a rebuttal? Again, you stated with some authority that Zionism was about a historical biblical/religious right to land when I have stated it was never about that as Zionism was secular and today is still mostly secular. By your own admission you concede that point.

the evasion_kid

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Does that make it fine to have kids running around with delight at the sight of eyes being gouged out and intestines being pulled from bodies?

Is it really one of the things Palestinians do to release tension?

Nope,but I think if you push a group of people far enough expect them to kick back,its not pleasant but accept some accountability for your part in it too.

NoCrackHaving

Deleted User wrote: »

Does that make it fine to have kids running around with delight at the sight of eyes being gouged out and intestines being pulled from bodies?

Is it really one of the things Palestinians do to release tension?

War dehumanises people like nothing else, look at every conflict zone around the world, including Northern Ireland.

If your entire life has consisted of war and death how can you expect children not to be affected.

Zebra3

jank wrote: »

Zionism much like all other late 19th century nationalistic movements was centered around the idea of a nation state for people who were culturally alike and who shared common traditions/languages/morals etc..

Zionism was no more or less nationalistic than early 20th century Irish Republicanism for example.

Irish republicanism was about liberating Ireland from an evil foreign occupation which carried out ethnic cleansing.

Zionism was and still is a colonialist-supremacist ideology which is built on ethnic cleansing. It's a lot closer to national socialism and facism.

Please don't insult our intelligence by comparing the two.

the evasion_kid

the evasion_kid wrote: »

Nope,but I think if you push a group of people far enough expect them to kick back,its not pleasant but accept some accountability for your part in it too.

The issue was the reaction of various parties with various interests in the conflict. You are labelling one people sub human on the basis that they watched and cheered bombs going off in the distance, while refusing to criticise in any way the other crowd who cheered as they passed around organs pulled from the victims of lynching because, like, you know, it released the tensions and this excuse and that. We'll agree to differ. I regard both as fairly grotesque.

NoCrackHaving

NoCrackHaving wrote: »

War dehumanises people like nothing else, look at every conflict zone around the world, including Northern Ireland.

If your entire life has consisted of war and death how can you expect children not to be affected.

But it desensitizes both.

We can't say the Israelis should maintain a stiff upper lip and should be criticised for cheering their army, while the Palestinians can run around doling out body parts of victims for kicks.

Although ironically the fact that some seem to say that's what you get with Palestinians is a bizarre way of defending them in any argument based on humanity.

Gringo180

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Does that make it fine to have kids running around with delight at the sight of eyes being gouged out and intestines being pulled from bodies?

Is it really one of the things Palestinians do to release tension?

There is bad on both sides. But you would expect Israel, a self proclaimed beacon of light in the middle east to behave with a bit more humanity. Instead they use one of the most sophisticated and powerful airforces on earth to obliterate everything in there sights in Gaza, a people who have nothing to defend themselves with. They target civilian infastructure, power stations, hospitals, U.N relief centres etc. Vapourising kids playing football on a beach in the process. They even bull dozed over 31,000 (half of there poultry livestock) chickens on a farm with there tanks, but hey I suppose Hamas where hiding amongst them.

Even the fishermen can't fish in there waters without fear of being blown to pieces. What sort of modern democratic state behaves in this manner?

When a people are oppressed and slaughtered, they will fight back through whatever means possible. Its there right.

Gringo180

Gringo180 wrote: »

There is bad on both sides. But you would expect Israel, a self proclaimed beacon of light in the middle east to behave with a bit more humanity.

You kinda expect savagery from Palestinians?

I must say, it's a terrible argument you're making to press any criticism of the Israelis!