What's more Irish - accent or birthplace?

feargale

josephryan1989 wrote: »

I think I have explained it.

Pre-Norman Ireland was populated by Gaelic people who spoke Gaelic dialects. It was only at the mouths of the major rivers where Viking people had built settlements. This Gaelic civilization persisted until the 17th century when it was finally destroyed by Cromwell and it was the Potato Famine that wiped out more than a million Gaelic speakers - the direct descendants of the pre-Norman Gaelic - who were the cottier class and scattered a million more to the four corners of the earth. If you look at the genes of people with Gaelic surnames you will discover their roots go right back to the pre-Norman period. People with Norman surnames are descendants of the Norman invaders and people with English, Scottish and Welsh surnames are descendants of planters who came to Ireland in the 16th, 17th, 18th and 19th centuries.

So the real Irish are the Gaelic Irish while other people can claim to be legally Irish but are not real Irish people.

I see. Then you should talk to your American and Australian cousins about who the real Americans and Australians are.

josephryan1989

feargale wrote: »

I see. Then you should talk to your American and Australian cousins about who the real Americans and Australians are.

You can't dispute genetic research, history and genealogy. The Gaelic Irish are the native Irish and truly Irish.

"Americans" are predominantly descendants of German, Irish, African American and English.

"Australians" are predominantly descendants of English, Irish, Scottish and Welsh.

The Backwards Man

josephryan1989 wrote: »

People like Erksine Childers, Roger Casement and Constance Markievicz were Anglo-Irish Protesants who turned native. Doesn't make them Irish.
William Butler Yeats came from the same stock but he was never really Irish.
The real Irish are the Gaelic people of Ireland

Like you?

I'd say you're pure alright.

josephryan1989

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Like you?

I'd say you're pure alright.

The Gaelic Irish are the real Irish. Always have and always will.
Are you actually disputing genetic, anthropological, archaeological, historical and genealogical facts?

The Corinthian

josephryan1989 wrote: »

The Gaelic Irish are the real Irish. Always have and always will.
Are you actually disputing genetic, anthropological, archaeological, historical and genealogical facts?

No, you are. The Gaelic Irish only appeared in Ireland during the Iron age, supplanting the previous, non-Gael, population. So "always have" is genetic, anthropological, archaeological, historical and genealogical rubbish.

As for "always will", that's a prophesy that only a fool would make.

So, you believe yourself to be of pure descent of the Irish Gaels? On what basis?

josephryan1989

The Corinthian wrote: »

No, you are. The Gaelic Irish only appeared in Ireland during the Iron age, supplanting the previous, non-Gael, population. So "always have" is genetic, anthropological, archaeological, historical and genealogical rubbish.

As for "always will", that's a prophesy that only a fool would make.

So, you believe yourself to be of pure descent of the Irish Gaels? On what basis?

The Iron Age isn't far enough back for you?

I can trace my ancestors back to the early 18th century on both sides. Gaelic Irish all the way.

The Corinthian

josephryan1989 wrote: »

The Iron Age isn't far enough back for you?

No. If you're going to talk about ethnic purity, you should do so properly and stop inventing convenient historical points, that apparently constitute 'always have' even though the reality is the didn't.

I can trace my ancestors back to the early 18th century on both sides. Gaelic Irish all the way.

Did the Iron age start in the 18th century then? Who knows, perhaps one generation prior to when your can no longer trace your ancestors, there was a Scot-planter married into your family. Or maybe they didn't even bother marrying.

I'm afraid, you don't measure up to even your limited purity standards.

For the record, I'm a bit of everything; Irish, English, Italian, Austrian, Russian, Tuscan, Frankish, Lombard and prior to that records become a little questionable.

The Backwards Man

josephryan1989 wrote: »

The Iron Age isn't far enough back for you?

I can trace my ancestors back to the early 18th century on both sides. Gaelic Irish all the way.

Late 16th for me. I'm more Irish than you. Na na na na na

Playground stuff this.

whatismyname

Accent.

Specifically the ability to say a decent 'dirty tree and a turd'.

The Corinthian

whatismyname wrote: »

Accent.

Specifically the ability to say a decent 'dirty tree and a turd'.

Thing is there's no such thing as an 'Irish' accent? Is it a Cavan accent? Ulster? Cork? South Dublin? North Dublin? Kerry?

As for birthplace, as the Duke of Wellington once retorted when asked about his own Irish birth "just because one is born in a stable, does not make one a horse".

While some Irish ancestry may help to a degree, it probably comes down to what you are culturally, have in common with your community, your diet, education, expressions, attitudes and the like.

A compatriot is someone you will easily find commonality with if you should meet them on some far shore. That's what being Irish, or anything else, means in the end.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TzC2eqkFdk

whatismyname

The Corinthian wrote: »

Thing is there's no such thing as an 'Irish' accent? Is it a Cavan accent? Ulster? Cork? South Dublin? North Dublin? Kerry?

Whichever. It's not all that relevant to the point I was making.

Go outside Ireland having an accent from any of those areas, people will likely recognise that you're Irish, even if they don't know what part.

And there's a fairly decent chance that you might also be asked to say 33 and a third at some point.

Living abroad, people could ask me where I'm from,but I learned fairly quickly that there was little point in replying with 'Ireland' as I always got the response 'I know that, which part?'

Seven years living abroad now and my accent's as strong as ever, so unlikely to ever be any disguising where I'm from or being mistaken for being from anywhere but The Emerald Isle.

The Corinthian

whatismyname wrote: »

Go outside Ireland having an accent from any of those areas, people will likely recognise that you're Irish, even if they don't know what part.

Nope. Presuming they even know what an Irish accent is and their English is good enough to pick up on one, many will confuse Irish accents with Scottish or even English ones.

And there's a fairly decent chance that you might also be asked to say 33 and a third at some point.

Not all Irishmen can't pronounce th's.

Living abroad, people could ask me where I'm from,but I learned fairly quickly that there was little point in replying with 'Ireland' as I always got the response 'I know that, which part?'

Again, depends where you live. There are plenty of countries out there that are not as familiar with Ireland.

whatismyname

The Corinthian wrote: »

Nope. Presuming they even know what an Irish accent is and their English is good enough to pick up on one, many will confuse Irish accents with Scottish or even English ones.

Exactly. Hence why I said 'people will likely' I didn't say they will always recognise the person is from Ireland.

Not all Irishmen can't pronounce th's.

I didn't say that all Irish people can't pronoune their th's. I said there's a fairly decent chance that you might be asked to say 33 and a third. Made no comment at all on whether the person would then be able to pronounce the th afterwards or not.

Again, depends where you live. There are plenty of countries out there that are not as familiar with Ireland.

Yes. Notice how I shared a piece of my own personal experience, and did not say that that would be the case in every country in the world?

So, em... yay.

Martial9

feargale wrote: »

I see. Then you should talk to your American and Australian cousins about who the real Americans and Australians are.

The native tribes and Inuits. He is kind of right about people with Irish surnames probably having ancestry stretching back further than the rest of us.

DNA testing through the male Y chromosome has shown that Irish males have the highest incidence of the haplogroup 1 gene in Europe. While other parts of Europe have integrated contiuous waves of new settlers from Asia, Ireland's remote geographical position has meant that the Irish gene-pool has been less susceptible to change. The same genes have been passed down from parents to children for thousands of years.

This is mirrored in genetic studies which have compared DNA analysis with Irish surnames. Many surnames in Irish are Gaelic surnames, suggesting that the holder of the surname is a descendant of people who lived in Ireland long before the English conquests of the Middle Ages. Men with Gaelic surnames, showed the highest incidences of Haplogroup 1 (or Rb1) gene. This means that those Irish whose ancestors pre-date English conquest of the island are direct descendants of early stone age settlers who migrated from Spain.

http://www.sott.net/article/263587-DNA-shows-Irish-people-have-more-complex-origins-than-previously-thought

It is not really that important and doesn't make them more Irish. Similarly, playing GAA, participating in traditional music, dance or speaking Irish doesn't really make you more Irish than someone who doesn't.

Kev_2012

I was born in England to Irish parents and moved to Ireland at 3 and grew up there. Strong Limerick City accent and only ever had an Irish passport.

Checked my lineage as far back as possible (about 200 years) every single one of them was born in Ireland. I also have a norman surname.

I of course consider myself Irish and always will. You wanna be Irish and have a connection? Then you are AFAIAC!

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Tony EH

I suppose it's where you grow up that determines, to a large degree, if you're Irish, or what have you.

You can be born in Scotland to a long line of Scottish ancestry and live in Finland for the rest of your life. Are you Scottish or Finnish? It's difficult to say. I suppose in that case, it's what one feels themselves to be.

I suppose a lot depends on your racial makeup too on how people perceive you. If you're Indian looking, but grew up in Rings End, to most people you're Indian. I don't think that's a slight on anyone, it just is.

As I said, it probably just comes down to what the person feels themselves.

Lia_lia

I have an Irish name, Irish passport, Irish accent and have lived in Ireland for most of my life. So therefore would consider myself Irish! Was born in England to an Irish Mother and English Father. Would not consider myself English at all.

The Backwards Man

Lia_lia wrote: »

I have an Irish name, Irish passport, Irish accent and have lived in Ireland for most of my life. So therefore would consider myself Irish! Was born in England to an Irish Mother and English Father. Would not consider myself English at all.

Unless you know where your great great great great great Granny drew water for the spuds that's no good for some folk here! :P Ya big Beano!

Ave Sodalis

The Corinthian wrote:

Thing is there's no such thing as an 'Irish' accent? Is it a Cavan accent? Ulster? Cork? South Dublin? North Dublin? Kerry?

No such thing as an Ulster accent either

Seriously though, anyone who holds Irish citizenship and identifies as Irish is enough for me in my books. This crap about surnames is exactly that... crap. I've an Irish surname. My family have lived in the same area for at least the last 100 years, if you follow that surname. If you look up the history of our name, it goes very far back. But that doesn't mean that at some stage, there wasn't some foreign blood mixed in through marriage some time between when the history of the general surname ended and the start of the more personal lineage began recording. I don't for one second believe that every single person in your direct lineage had come from a family with ancient Irish roots. You surname, maybe but that doesn't account for marriages and their family.

MakeEmLaugh

Ruairí Ó Brádaigh was the most uncompromising Irish republican of the 20th century (not saying whether this is a bad or good thing).

His grandmother was a French-speaking Swiss woman.

LordSutch

Lia_lia wrote: »

I have an Irish name, Irish passport, Irish accent and have lived in Ireland for most of my life. So therefore would consider myself Irish! Was born in England to an Irish Mother and English Father. Would not consider myself English at all.

Born in England with an English Dad, surely that makes you half English?

PS: What do you mean when you say you have an Irish name?

Teafor two12345

I've decided my name is Polina and I am Russian.And damn it to hell if anyone says otherwise.

Lia_lia

If I was abroad and someone asked me what country I was from I wouldn't say "half English half Irish". :rolleyes:

I have an Irish firstname and surname.

Didn't realise some people felt so strongly about this!

LordSutch

Lia_lia wrote: »

If I was abroad and someone asked me what country I was from I wouldn't say "half English half Irish". :rolleyes:

I have an Irish firstname and surname.

Didn't realise some people felt so strongly about this!

People are always saying I'm half this, or half that, nothing special there.

During the Rugby world cup one of my cousins had dual allegiances, as his mum was Welsh with his Dad being Irish, he's proud of his dual heritage, which is cool, specially if you have two teams to follow

youreadthat

josephryan1989 wrote: »

The Iron Age isn't far enough back for you?

I can trace my ancestors back to the early 18th century on both sides. Gaelic Irish all the way.

If there's one thing the Iron Age is known for it's the family history documentation they left behind.

Teafor two12345

This thread has become ridiculous :-/???

Mother Brain

I was born in Scotland to Scottish parents, have a British passport but have lived here since 1992. I have an Irish accent and mindset but curiously never would call myself Irish. I have no real admiration for Irish traditions or culture.

I chalk it up to being bullied for being a "Brit" and a "prod" when I came over here to a semi rural area. I was made to feel very much an outsider for a long time. All during primary school in fact. (Despite quickly becoming top of the class in irish!)

At this stage I feel no allegiance to any nation and view any sort of nationalism as a ridiculous hang over of the 20th century.

Funny the way things turn out!

oceanid

Mother Brain wrote: »

At this stage I feel no allegiance to any nation and view any sort of nationalism as a ridiculous hang over of the 20th century.

Would living in a place for over 20 years not indicate some allegiance? Assuming it's by choice.

The Corinthian

oceanid wrote: »

Would living in a place for over 20 years not indicate some allegiance? Assuming it's by choice.

I'd imagine when you grow up somewhere, it's usually by your parents' choice.

Mother Brain

oceanid wrote: »

Would living in a place for over 20 years not indicate some allegiance? Assuming it's by choice.

Not really as far as I'm concerned. It's just where I ended up. I'm sure people all over the world end up places they hold no 'allegiance' to but have to be there for one reason or another.

I have wanted to emigrate for years but haven't really had the funds thanks to the recession, and anywhere I have looked into emigrating seems fairly difficult to get into on a British passport in any case.

Martial9

Mother Brain wrote: »

I have wanted to emigrate for years but haven't really had the funds thanks to the recession, and anywhere I have looked into emigrating seems fairly difficult to get into on a British passport in any case.

You have the rest of the EU/EEA(for now) and relatively handy working holiday visas for Canada, Australia, New Zealand etc available to you.

Experience_day

With the amount of abuse I took growing up here because I had an English accent (inspite of parents, grandparents etc etc), I'd rather not identify as Irish anymore. A person without a country...

And frankly there's so many of us "foreigners", but y'all be a minority soon enough anyway. Dublin is already well on its way to becoming like London. God help ya!

MakeEmLaugh

Experience_day wrote: »

Frankly there's so many of us "foreigners", but y'all be a minority soon enough anyway. Dublin is already well on its way to becoming like London. God help ya!

87.4 per cent of the Irish state is White Irish.

People of colour make up 5.7 per cent.

It would take a long time for that 5.7 per cent to become the dominant group in the country.

Mother Brain

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

87.4 per cent of the Irish state is White Irish.

People of colour make up 5.7 per cent.

It would take a long time for that 5.7 per cent to become the dominant group in the country.

Probably a much higher proportion of the population of Dublin is non white Irish though compared to the rest of the country. He was talking about Dublin after all.

I'd say it's greater than 90% white in the rest of the country.

Experience_day

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

87.4 per cent of the Irish state is White Irish.

People of colour make up 5.7 per cent.

It would take a long time for that 5.7 per cent to become the dominant group in the country.

First google article from 2014.


http://www.thejournal.ie/poverty-children-ireland-immigrant-non-irish-1599272-Aug2014/

One in four children in Ireland are born to a non-Irish mother

Doesn't take long. Quite right as well. Bring down the borders and the pettiness will go.

MakeEmLaugh

Experience_day wrote: »

First google article from 2014.


http://www.thejournal.ie/poverty-children-ireland-immigrant-non-irish-1599272-Aug2014/

One in four children in Ireland are born to a non-Irish mother

Doesn't take long. Quite right as well. Bring down the borders and the pettiness will go.

So you're saying about 75 per cent of children are born to an Irish mother and father?

And the other 25 per cent may have one Irish parent?

It will take a long time for those born of a non-Irish parent (which doesn't preclude a person's Irishness, by the way - Patrick Pearse and Charles Stewart Parnell had parents from England and America respectively) to 'outnumber' the rest of the country.

The Corinthian

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

Patrick Pearse and Charles Stewart Parnell had parents from England and America respectively) to 'outnumber' the rest of the country.

Don't forget Éamon "please don't execute me, I'm American" de Valera.

oceanid

Experience_day wrote: »

With the amount of abuse I took growing up here because I had an English accent (inspite of parents, grandparents etc etc), I'd rather not identify as Irish anymore.

Obviously that's just wrong. Someone's accent is not what being Irish is about(unless there's no hint of Irishness at all in it). There are dozens of different accents in Ireland itself. As well as this some people pick up accents more easily than others. The idea that you have to have the same accent as ancestors to qualify as Irish makes no sense as most people do not stay in the same locality as they grew up. So people can end up with mixed urban/rural accents or what could be said isn't a 'pure' accent easily traceable to one particular place.

Most British accents are fairly easily understandable I would say. The only time I would be bothered a bit by an accent is when it gets in the way of actual communication. Some Irish accents even are like this. Maybe not so much nowadays, but it's happened when talking to someone with a strong regional accent.

Sir Osis of Liver.

Teafor two12345 wrote: »

This thread has become ridiculous :-/???

It was doing grand until yer man came on saying you weren't Irish unless your lineage could be traced back on both sides to Neanderthal Ireland.

Andre 3000

It has to be accent. All the people saying otherwise must have American D4 accents and are trying to save face!

YungKeo

Having been born in the US to Irish and moving to Ireland when I was young I would have to go with accent. I consider myself completely Irish and nobody would ever think otherwise unless they knew my birthplace.
I remember being asked what hospital I was born in during school one day and the whole class turning their heads in confusion and looking at me as if I had two heads when I told them.
I was the only yank in the school for a few days until everyone forgot

InTheTrees

oceanid wrote: »

Someone's accent is not what being Irish is about(unless there's no hint of Irishness at all in it).

Wait...is it or isnt it?

Electric Sheep

Obesssiveness about what makes a person Irish is much more Irish than either accent or place of birth:rolleyes:

oceanid

InTheTrees wrote: »

Wait...is it or isnt it?

Obviously there are gradations of accent, I suppose that's what I meant with that. If someone arrives here as a child, let's say they have an English accent, after a couple of years that accent will begin to disappear or become a bit more Irish but may still have some remaining Englishness or whatever. Generally speaking, younger children are a lot more likely to adopt the accent of the culture of their school (rather than that of their parents if their parents have an accent that isn't local). If a child is a bit older, they would probably hold onto their original accent longer, but it would be rare I think if having spent a few years in the country they would have no recognisable Irish words or pronounciation whatsoever in their accent.

anvilfour

My Mum was born in France to Irish parents, she was raised in Britain so has English accent but still holds an Irish Passport and considers herself Irish.

My Dad is English and I was born and raised in Uk, technically I could use my Gran's Birth Certificate and get dual Uk-Ireland Citizenship but what's the point? It's not like I'm running for Mayor! 😀

Martial9

Accent or birthplace? It didn't matter during the 1994 World Cup.

Houghton neither spoke with an Irish accent, but his dad was a Donegal man. There was only one team Ray was gonna play for. That game in Giants stadium - a great Italian team. What a goal!

The black pearl had played out out of his skin. Baggio and the lads realised that. The ball was played well in front of Giuseppe Signori and Paul sprinted and put in the tackle.

McGrath was world class in that game.

oceanid

I think it goes a bit deeper than who plays on a soccer team. Not saying some of those you mentioned wouldn't be Irish(if they have Irish parents).

Being Irish is about something that has history to it. Someone has Irish parents or other close relatives and has grown up experiencing the day-to-day life, so they have a certain feel for the history/culture of a place.

Place of birth obviously doesn't mean much if someone hasn't lived here or only sets foot here now and then.

An accent by itself doesn't mean a lot either - some people pick up an accent quicker than others. I have met people who are only in the place a few years and didn't grow up here with quite a bit of the accent.

osarusan

Martial9 wrote: »

Houghton neither spoke with an Irish accent, but his dad was a Donegal man. There was only one team Ray was gonna play for.

Houghton played for Scotland at underage level, but felt alienated and unwelcome as he was with an English club at the time, and took his chance to play for Ireland after thinking that his chances would be very limited with Scotland due to the kind of players that they had in Strachan, McStay, and Roy Aitken.

Not to say that he didn't feel Irish also, but it's wrong to say there was only one team he as going to play for.

The Corinthian

oceanid wrote: »

Being Irish is about something that has history to it.

TBH, nationality - the nation - is a bit of invention. Prior to the British, Ireland was a nation only in the way Europe is. Some vague, powerless, high king for a bit, but otherwise a collection of separate sovereign states - who as often as not were at war with each other. England, later Britain, Germany, Italy, France and so on were much the same.

And before that, in most of Europe, were you to ask what nationality someone identified with, it probably would have been Roman.

Even the idea of a nation is actually pretty recent. Prior to the enlightenment, there were vague geographic or linguistic notions of it, largely limited to the educated classes, but for the most part we were subjects rather than citizens. We would simply be people who lived on land owned by a sovereign, who in turn was anointed by God to rule.

That began to change with the French revolution - why do you think Louis XVI was king of France and, later, Louis-Philippe I was king of the French? God was just replaced with the Fatherland.

Personally, I came to the conclusion a while back that it's all invention, designed to instill a sense of community in a group of people who would otherwise have nothing in common and convince them to do stupid things like charge towards people who are shooting at you.

So good luck defining it really.