Census 2016 - Time to tick NO

mckar

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Because it's used as an excuse to prop up religious discrimination in schools. The same schools that put my kids at the bottom of the admission queue.

It's not any type of religion or belief that is the problem here. It's the type of people in each that push their views on to others that always seem to have an (excuse) reason for why they do it.

robindch

Weatherproof79 wrote: »

Just have respect.

As Hotblack points out, respect is earned and not granted in the fashion of a "get out of jail free" card.

Weatherproof79 wrote: »

People on this thread talking about magic potions insulting those who believe

If people wish to be respected simply for beliefs which they hold, or think they hold, then perhaps they should try to hold beliefs which are a little less silly.

Weatherproof79 wrote: »

[...] you boring old sods [...] Twatism [...]

For somebody who demands responsibility-free respect for religious believers, you seem happy enough to toss around insults yourself.

Perhaps you should try to remove the log from your eye before attending to the twig in somebody else's.

Hotblack Desiato

mckar wrote: »

It's not any type of religion or belief that is the problem here. It's the type of people in each that push their views on to others that always seem to have an (excuse) reason for why they do it.

It is the religions, because substantial numbers of the followers of the vast majority of them do these things, and their scriptures tell them to. Trying to impose religion on others, proselytising, attempting to write religious views into legislation, attempting to grab tax money and control of state services, they've been extremely successful at this in Ireland and still are.

The exceptions would include Judaism, 'we are god's chosen people and everyone else can fnck off' etc, which isn't any better in my book.

Dades

mckar wrote: »

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Because it's used as an excuse to prop up religious discrimination in schools. The same schools that put my kids at the bottom of the admission queue.

It's not any type of religion or belief that is the problem here.

Eh? Of course it is. The catholic church run the vast majority of our state funded schools and insist on peddling solely their own brand of religion. And get to choose their brand of taxpayers' children to fill these schools. How is that not the problem?

It's the type of people in each that push their views on to others that always seem to have an (excuse) reason for why they do it.

Such as, for example - the church who run the vast majority of our state funded schools.

The alternative to having a single dogma forced on all children at school is not to push another view, but to simply teach kids the curriculaum minus the religious dogma.

In short, there is only one side insisting on pushing their views. And as for the reason they do it? They know damn well their religion would be dead in this country in a couple of generations if they didn't have unfettered access to children from aged 4/5.

mckar

Dades wrote: »

Eh? Of course it is. The catholic church run the vast majority of our state funded schools and insist on peddling solely their own brand of religion. And get to choose their brand of taxpayers' children to fill these schools. How is that not the problem?

Such as, for example - the church who run the vast majority of our state funded schools.

The alternative to having a single dogma forced on all children at school is not to push another view, but to simply teach kids the curriculaum minus the religious dogma.

In short, there is only one side insisting on pushing their views. And as for the reason they do it? They know damn well their religion would be dead in this country in a couple of generations if they didn't have unfettered access to children from aged 4/5.

I totally get where you are coming from 100% and your right It will die out in a few years regardless of what they do it has hugely over the past generation

I'm Not up on the whole school situation and the way they are run now my kids are not at that age just yet. But any new schools been build from what I've seen are not run by the church anymore. I think when religion and people in general stop pushing their opinion from any belief on to others this world will see brighter days.

I get the church still has a hold over alot of them but that's boils down to exactly what I'm saying aswel they are pushing their beliefs. I know there is no answer to the issues but if everyone just accepted everyone for whatever they are we wouldn't have these issues.

Hotblack Desiato

Dades wrote: »

In short, there is only one side insisting on pushing their views. And as for the reason they do it? They know damn well their religion would be dead in this country in a couple of generations if they didn't have unfettered access to children from aged 4/5.

It will be, anyway.

We are now witnessing the catholic Battle of the Bulge.

mckar wrote: »

But any new schools been build from what I've seen are not run by the church anymore.

Not true, there are still new religious schools being built with state money on state-owned sites.

Even if all new schools were non-religiously-discriminating, that still leaves the other 96%. The Dublin suburb where I live has no non-religious-patronage schools at all, and the Dept of Education chose to build new classrooms in one of the RC schools last year rather than allow an ET to open.

Nobody in this area was surveyed as to what they wanted.

I'm mad as hell and any politician of any stripe who calls to my door better watch out. Bunch of cowards the lot of them, even the "left".

Absolam

Huntergonzo wrote: »

Hi pedantic Pete, try someone else today, I'm not interested.

Of course not.. far more fun to engage in rhetorical nonsense, eh

Orion wrote: »

Substitute sky fairy for god and you'll find loads of them. Plenty of people around who seem to know exactly what their god thinks about absolutely everything. You know what sky fairy means - so why play dumb about it.

Sure... substitute Devil you won't find so many, substitute humanist you'll find a few... in fact if you substitute any word at all that's different you'll get a different result, we know that.
Just as I know what Huntergonzo means by sky fairy; he knows that in fact, you won't find that it's the "bible bashers" who go on about sky fairies not atheists, he sets out a lie deliberately to belittle people who believe in gods by using snarl words rather than presenting an actual argument against their position. Pointing out that using such a child like aggression is nothing more than that, isn't playing dumb; it's pointing out a dumb tactic.

Huntergonzo

Absolam wrote: »

Of course not.. far more fun to engage in rhetorical nonsense, eh

Sure... substitute Devil you won't find so many, substitute humanist you'll find a few... in fact if you substitute any word at all that's different you'll get a different result, we know that.
Just as I know what Huntergonzo means by sky fairy; he knows that in fact, you won't find that it's the "bible bashers" who go on about sky fairies not atheists, he sets out a lie deliberately to belittle people who believe in gods by using snarl words rather than presenting an actual argument against their position. Pointing out that using such a child like aggression is nothing more than that, isn't playing dumb; it's pointing out a dumb tactic.

Right as always pedantic Pete 😂

expectationlost

No change on census form for non-believers till 2021 - Sunday Times http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/ireland/article1639040.ece paywall

I wouldn't hold my breathe for the CSO, they first said it was a statistical consistancy issue now they are saying its a funding issue.

Religion Question on the Census lobbying of CSO by HAI http://humanism.ie/2015/06/draft-hai-e-newsletter-june-2015/ HAI June 2015 http://humanism.ie/2015/05/hai-e-newsletter-may-2015/ May 2015

previous excuse from the CSO http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/think-carefully-before-answering-census-question-on-religion-1.585700

this suggestion, made by the Humanist Association of Ireland (HAI) following an invitation by the Central Statistics Office (CSO) for suggestions regarding possible improvements in the census, was rejected on the basis it would make historical comparisons difficult.

rejected the time before last too http://humanistni.org/filestore/file/mar2011inners%20.pdf

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2015-07-14a.133&s=religion+census#g134.q

Unfortunately given the very tight budget circumstances in 2013 and 2014, with constraints on resources right across the public sector, it was not possible to pursue this route for census 2016. Accordingly the 2016 census is being run as a ‘no-change’ census with the questions (including the religion question) on the 2016 questionnaire remaining unchanged from those used in the 2011 census, with the exception of the question on marital status.

what excuse from the CSO next time?

Shrap

expectationlost wrote: »

what excuse from the CSO next time?

Well I won't hold my breath for honesty, ie. "We're a bit thick and can't see how it might make a difference to public policy". :rolleyes:

Zamboni

FB users can make a positive public FB statement and encourage other to do so.

I am going to Tick No Religion in Census 2016

Go here and click GOING
https://www.facebook.com/events/534512320046998/


There are so many "cultural Catholics" out there who are sick of the abuse scandals, forced baptisms and the churches position in the state.

Encourage them to Tick No
Invite > Select All > Invitations

Walter H Price

This might be a really stupid question , but here goes.

So i want to tick no religion on the census , because i'm in no way religious , other than Funerals & Weddings i haven't been in a church since my Confo. However I'm getting married next year, in a church :O not really my call i would have preferred to go abroad but the OH wants the traditional Church & Hotel affair , though she's not religious at all either her family would be so more to keep them happy.

She is concerned that if i tick no religion the priest could find out and stop us having a church wedding. I thought other than the govt these records were sealed for 100 years or something so no way the church or priest would find out what we ticked either way, but a few people have said they think the church can check.

So what i want to know is are these records sealed and whatever i fill in kept private or could the priest request the info ?

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

The Randy Riverbeast

Walter H Price wrote: »

This might be a really stupid question , but here goes.

So i want to tick no religion on the census , because i'm in no way religious , other than Funerals & Weddings i haven't been in a church since my Confo. However I'm getting married next year, in a church :O not really my call i would have preferred to go abroad but the OH wants the traditional Church & Hotel affair , though she's not religious at all either her family would be so more to keep them happy.

She is concerned that if i tick no religion the priest could find out and stop us having a church wedding. I thought other than the govt these records were sealed for 100 years or something so no way the church or priest would find out what we ticked either way, but a few people have said they think the church can check.

So what i want to know is are these records sealed and whatever i fill in kept private or could the priest request the info ?

I'm pretty sure you're safe. You've probably been baptised and everything so that's Catholic enough for them.

Walter H Price

Sweet thanks guys , yeh baptised , communion and confo all ticked off , my folks done the old cultural catholic keep the grandparents happy thing.

I will be ticking no so time the give the RCC a bloody nose with this census

volchitsa

Walter H Price wrote: »

This might be a really stupid question , but here goes.

So i want to tick no religion on the census , because i'm in no way religious , other than Funerals & Weddings i haven't been in a church since my Confo. However I'm getting married next year, in a church :O not really my call i would have preferred to go abroad but the OH wants the traditional Church & Hotel affair , though she's not religious at all either her family would be so more to keep them happy.

She is concerned that if i tick no religion the priest could find out and stop us having a church wedding. I thought other than the govt these records were sealed for 100 years or something so no way the church or priest would find out what we ticked either way, but a few people have said they think the church can check.

So what i want to know is are these records sealed and whatever i fill in kept private or could the priest request the info ?

AFAIK, all information given for the purposes of the census is absolutely confidential, nobody is allowed to consult information about an individual, not even the government for tax purposes.

recedite

This year I'm torn between "No religion" "Pastafarian" and "Jedi".
I just can't make up my mind.

Hotblack Desiato

For statistical purposes, better to tick 'no religion' than to write in anything

wokingvoter

Walter H Price wrote: »

This might be a really stupid question , but here goes.

So i want to tick no religion on the census , because i'm in no way religious , other than Funerals & Weddings i haven't been in a church since my Confo. However I'm getting married next year, in a church :O not really my call i would have preferred to go abroad but the OH wants the traditional Church & Hotel affair , though she's not religious at all either her family would be so more to keep them happy.

She is concerned that if i tick no religion the priest could find out and stop us having a church wedding. I thought other than the govt these records were sealed for 100 years or something so no way the church or priest would find out what we ticked either way, but a few people have said they think the church can check.

So what i want to know is are these records sealed and whatever i fill in kept private or could the priest request the info ?

I wouldn't be too sure atall Walter. RCC priests have the same power as a Garda sargent you know. It's possible that they'll demand access to this census and set up a database and cross reference requests for the Sacrament of marriage against those who have ticked no religion. ( why would a non religious person want a sacrament?!) Then they just lock up the church on the day leaving you and your best man outside peering in the gates. I'd check it out if I were you.

Hotblack Desiato

It's more than a little bit pathetic that a grown adult, of no religious belief, who expresses the entirely understandable desire to "give the RCC a bloody nose with this census", is still willing to get married in a church.

wokingvoter

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It's more than a little bit pathetic that a grown adult, of no religious belief, who expresses the entirely understandable desire to "give the RCC a bloody nose with this census", is still willing to get married in a church.

What it is is entirely typical
"I'm seething about the role the RCC have played and continue to play in the admin of this country but my girlfriend thinks the church is reallll pretty and the priest looks lovely in his vestments in the pictures + my wife's mother would be upset and I'm a spineless jelly really with no mind of my own so I'm just going to go right ahead and be a total fake. Oh we'll be back next year too getting a baby baptised but I'm still seething about the RCC and I'm not going to be happy till every church in the country is burnt to the ground... just not till after all my families weddings baptisms communions confirmations and funerals. Sock it to the man. I'm an absolute Maverick "

Laura_A

Wow - reading some of these comments would really put you off coming to boards for advice - wokingvoter and hotblack desiato seem to be two of those typical keyboard warriors... girlfriend thinks 'the church is reallll pretty' - sexist much? How you think you can judge someone from one question - you must have some sort of a 'higher power'.. You both sound exactly like the church you clearly dislike so much pushing your views on someone else and lashing out if someone doesn't have the same opinion as you.

Here is a novel idea - just answer the question you know the answer and want to help and maybe not try pushing your views on to other people.. Cannot stand people who shove their opinions downs everyones throat under the pretense of being part of the minority

The Randy Riverbeast

wokingvoter wrote: »

What it is is entirely typical
"I'm seething about the role the RCC have played and continue to play in the admin of this country but my girlfriend thinks the church is reallll pretty and the priest looks lovely in his vestments in the pictures + my wife's mother would be upset and I'm a spineless jelly really with no mind of my own so I'm just going to go right ahead and be a total fake. Oh we'll be back next year too getting a baby baptised but I'm still seething about the RCC and I'm not going to be happy till every church in the country is burnt to the ground... just not till after all my families weddings baptisms communions confirmations and funerals. Sock it to the man. I'm an absolute Maverick "

If he did decide not to go through with a church wedding he would be called a militant atheist, there's no winning.

Laura_A wrote: »

Wow - reading some of these comments would really put you off coming to boards for advice - wokingvoter and hotblack desiato seem to be two of those typical keyboard warriors... girlfriend thinks 'the church is reallll pretty' - sexist much? How you think you can judge someone from one question - you must have some sort of a 'higher power'.. You both sound exactly like the church you clearly dislike so much pushing your views on someone else and lashing out if someone doesn't have the same opinion as you.

Here is a novel idea - just answer the question you know the answer and want to help and maybe not try pushing your views on to other people.. Cannot stand people who shove their opinions downs everyones throat under the pretense of being part of the minority

Going by wokingvoter's posts I dont think its the church he hates.

wokingvoter

Laura_A wrote: »

Wow - reading some of these comments would really put you off coming to boards for advice - wokingvoter and hotblack desiato seem to be two of those typical keyboard warriors... girlfriend thinks 'the church is reallll pretty' - sexist much? How you think you can judge someone from one question - you must have some sort of a 'higher power'.. You both sound exactly like the church you clearly dislike so much pushing your views on someone else and lashing out if someone doesn't have the same opinion as you.

Here is a novel idea - just answer the question you know the answer and want to help and maybe not try pushing your views on to other people.. Cannot stand people who shove their opinions downs everyones throat under the pretense of being part of the minority

Wow.

wokingvoter

The Randy Riverbeast wrote: »

If he did decide not to go through with a church wedding he would be called a militant atheist, there's no winning.



Going by wokingvoter's posts I dont think its the church he hates.

If you were absolutely honest there's nothing you'd like better then someone, anyone, acknowledging that your a militant atheist. What's the point otherwise ?

Hotblack Desiato

Laura_A wrote: »

Wow - reading some of these comments would really put you off coming to boards for advice - wokingvoter and hotblack desiato seem to be two of those typical keyboard warriors... girlfriend thinks 'the church is reallll pretty' - sexist much? How you think you can judge someone from one question - you must have some sort of a 'higher power'.. You both sound exactly like the church you clearly dislike so much pushing your views on someone else and lashing out if someone doesn't have the same opinion as you.

Here is a novel idea - just answer the question you know the answer and want to help and maybe not try pushing your views on to other people.. Cannot stand people who shove their opinions downs everyones throat under the pretense of being part of the minority

LOL. Irony fail...

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Cherry Blossom

Are any boardsies doing the Sig thing this time around? Or does anyone now where I can find an appropriate image to put in mine?

Cherry Blossom

I found a few but need to get to my computer to resize first.

Hotblack Desiato

Post links to the images here?

Cherry Blossom

I just googled 'no religion census 2016. Humanism.ie and athiest.i.e. have them on their web pages.

Cherry Blossom

Can't get the ruddy thing to work at all!

Cherry Blossom

Ah I see, it only appears on new posts :rolleyes:

One eyed Jack

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Ah I see, it only appears on new posts :rolleyes:

Sigs might not appear either if posters have them turned off in their User CP.

(not sure if they do or don't show up on the touch site either as I have them turned off)

Shrap

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Ah I see, it only appears on new posts :rolleyes:

Thanks for that, nice one

Qs

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It's more than a little bit pathetic that a grown adult, of no religious belief, who expresses the entirely understandable desire to "give the RCC a bloody nose with this census", is still willing to get married in a church.

Not necessarily. Sometimes you have to compromise in life. I told my wife that we could get married wherever she wanted because I didn't care that much about it but that I'd never allow our kids to be baptised. This was years ago but in the end she agreed with me and we neither had our kid baptised and we got married in the hotel but I'd have gotten married in a church is she wanted.

Now that doesn't mean I'd lie through my teeth and pretend I was a good catholic boy. I would have told the priest that I was an atheist and I would have refused any of those silly classes they demand people take.

Walter H Price

Wasn't quite expecting that reaction tbh , like i said i wanted to get married abroad , my OH didn't fancy that as she has a big family , i'm not at all religious but she wanted a church here for a number of reasons , the main one being her grandmother wont be well enough to travel to the hotel were having our reception in , but will be able to attend the mass which will be in the church across from her house.

I wont feel any hypocrisy in ticking no on the census and still getting married in a church , i'm not religious but as we all know well in this country sometimes compromises have to be made

looksee

Qs wrote: »

Not necessarily. Sometimes you have to compromise in life. I told my wife that we could get married wherever she wanted because I didn't care that much about it but that I'd never allow our kids to be baptised. This was years ago but in the end she agreed with me and we neither had our kid baptised and we got married in the hotel but I'd have gotten married in a church is she wanted.

Now that doesn't mean I'd lie through my teeth and pretend I was a good catholic boy. I would have told the priest that I was an atheist and I would have refused any of those silly classes they demand people take.

A priest is under no obligation to marry you. If you stated you were an atheist, judging by my experience of some 40 years ago, they would have refused. As it was my husband was (and is) a practising Catholic, I was baptised CofE and still (at that time) more or less practising. Certainly I was not atheist. And even at that they made a total production of denying every aspect of the ceremony apart from the actual vows and the register.

Shrap

looksee wrote: »

And even at that they made a total production of denying every aspect of the ceremony apart from the actual vows and the register.

There have been some changes in the last 40 years! I remember having this exact conversation with you before, as my parents (also mixed religion) ended up getting married in the doorway of the Catholic Church - mostly because neither family would darken the door (literally, in this case) of the other family's church.

Thanks be to all of us that we've moved on somewhat from there.........

robdonn

Census 2016 is April 24th, Enda Kenny's birthday!

NIMAN

Maybe they need a NON-PRACTICING CATHOLIC box?

Then again, some would tick the PRACTICING one if they go to Mass once a year.

Its a bit like the I CAN SPEAK IRISH box that 1.77 million ticked because they remember a few words, yet very few of us know anyone that can speak Irish.

Bristolscale7

Got the census form today. How long has 'No Religion' been an option? Is this the first time?

robdonn

Bristolscale7 wrote: »

Got the census form today. How long has 'No Religion' been an option? Is this the first time?

It's been there a while, but it is always hidden under the "Other" section, resulting in people writing "Atheist", "Scientologist", "Jedi", ect. before even noticing the "No Religion" box.

ixoy

So from the actual Census website on the religion question

Everyone should answer this question, whether or not they have a religion.

This question is not about frequency of attendance at church or other place of worship. People should answer the question based on how they feel now about their religious beliefs, if any. The question is asking about the person’s current religion or beliefs and not about the religion the person may have been brought up with.

So the Cso are clearly stating that just because you were baptised does not mean you need to put that down. It's a great reference for those who have had to have this argument because, to falsely put it down, is against the CSO guidelines.

wokingvoter

ixoy wrote: »

So from the actual Census website on the religion question


So the Cso are clearly stating that just because you were baptised does not mean you need to put that down. It's a great reference for those who have had to have this argument because, to falsely put it down, is against the CSO guidelines.

Now that this option is so clearly available it will be VERY interesting to see the stats
How long will it be before stats are available?

expectationlost

Census 2016 Questionnaire virtually unchanged because CSO did not have budget for consultation
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/census-2016-to-contain-question-on-same-sex-marriage-1.2584456

There has been criticism that the questions on religion are too binary. People filling the form are asked what is their religion. There are five religions stated, including Catholic and Church of Ireland. There is a further two choces, another religion (to be written in) or no religion.

Some critics of that section have said it should distinguish between those practicing a religion and those who have lapsed or no longer practice a religion,

who is saying this?



wikipedia would red tag this paragraph

expectationlost

ixoy wrote: »

So from the actual Census website on the religion question


So the Cso are clearly stating that just because you were baptised does not mean you need to put that down. It's a great reference for those who have had to have this argument because, to falsely put it down, is against the CSO guidelines.

who has made that "arguement"?

wench

wokingvoter wrote: »

How long will it be before stats are available?

They should be out in about a year's time
http://census.ie/how-we-do-it/publishing-the-data/

wokingvoter

wench wrote: »

They should be out in about a year's time
http://census.ie/how-we-do-it/publishing-the-data/

Thanks. Should be interesting

ixoy

expectationlost wrote:

who has made that "arguement"?

Posters like the below have seen it, and others have:

lazygal wrote: »

My brother had an almighty row with our father during the last census. My dad insisted the brother go down as Catholic even though he has identified as atheist since his teens. My father's reasoning was that those baptised into a faith had to put down that faith on the census. Its a view someone else I know had reinforced by a census enumerator, who when asked said if you're a baptised Catholic you have to tick Catholic on the census.

So it's good to have the CSO lend some clarity to this.