ICYMI BMW Berlin 2016 Marathon Open

MacSwifty

Berlin completed second time 12 secs slower than last year in 3.20.35. Would have liked to go sub 3.20.00 but twas not to be on the day. Enjoyed it as much as last year and will apply again for next year. No complaints weather was great and water stops busy! Support on the course unreal and the new expo was quick and efficient.

MacSwifty

davedanon

MacSwifty wrote: »

Berlin completed second time 12 secs slower than last year in 3.20.35. Would have liked to go sub 3.20.00 but twas not to be on the day. Enjoyed it as much as last year and will apply again for next year. No complaints weather was great and water stops busy! Support on the course unreal and the new expo was quick and efficient.

MacSwifty

How would you compare the weather to last year's, MacSwifty?

MacSwifty

The start was definitely warmer but the finishing time heat was about the same. But I felt sorry for anyone finishing in the 4 hours plus with the later start it was in the low 20's when we came back across the gate. I would generally suffer in the sunlight but there was plenty water.

chickey2

For those who like data, here's the winning splits for the Berlin marathon. Mad stuff!

http://www.letsrun.com/news/2016/09/kilometer-kilometer-splits-2016-bmw-berlin-marathon-20303-kenenisa-bekele/

His slowest 5k split was still under 15 minutes. It really made me appreciate the talent of these guys.

EauRouge79

Nice to meet some of you again on Sunday afternoon. Krusty hope the recovery continues and you get the opportunity to do yourself justice in Dublin.

Jesus, I hate the week after a big marathon. Back to work today and depressed isn't the word.
I really wonder if I would be able to cope with the world at all if hadn't signed up for Dublin next month.

dcorcaigh

just back at work today, which was really hard to do!! what a great race, i think like many people i struggled for last few miles, was on for sub 3:40 until the wheels came off with 4 miles to go, struggled home in 3:41:20 which is still a PB but not the 3:39:xx i wanted. i felt the heat especially when it was reflecting off the high rise buildings towards the end. Fantastic race would highly recommend it to people and has the bonus that its in a great city

overpronator

Can somebody talk me out of racing Dublin please and if not provide some thoughts on how to approach training for these next few weeks!

Legs are almost back to normal today which is nice.

The Celtic Runner

EauRouge79 wrote: »

Nice to meet some of you again on Sunday afternoon. Krusty hope the recovery continues and you get the opportunity to do yourself justice in Dublin.

Jesus, I hate the week after a big marathon. Back to work today and depressed isn't the word.
I really wonder if I would be able to cope with the world at all if hadn't signed up for Dublin next month.

I confirm, I can't cope with it..feel very weird to not have any marathon to look forward to...

Duanington

overpronator wrote: »

Can somebody talk me out of racing Dublin please and if not provide some thoughts on how to approach training for these next few weeks!

Legs are almost back to normal today which is nice.

Ha ha ha - I had a feeling I'd be reading this !!

davedanon

overpronator wrote: »

Legs are almost back to normal today which is nice.

Wish I could say that.

overpronator

Duanington wrote: »

Ha ha ha - I had a feeling I'd be reading this !!

Ha, many ideas are grand in principle! This one will likely change once i lace them up again.

I hope.

Kinda!

Krusty_Clown

overpronator wrote: »

Can somebody talk me out of racing Dublin please and if not provide some thoughts on how to approach training for these next few weeks!

If your plan is to try and improve on your Berlin experience, then what you need to do is convince the mind and body that you didn't peak for Berlin.... That it was just a training session (albeit a long hard training session that you need to suitably recover from). Do a mini reverse taper. Once you can comfortably go up and down a stairs without any pain, start building up the mileage and plan on doing 10 very easy miles at the weekend. If you can get through 10 easy miles at the weekend, then you've got around 2.5 weeks of useful training, followed by 1.5 weeks of getting yourself fully healthy to make the start-line... (That means no showers.. And if you must shower, then use no shampoo. And if you must use shampoo, keep it on your right hand side).

2.5 weeks of useful training isn't a huge amount, so you shouldn't be thinking of improvement, but rather maintenance. Basically, you're taking the training that you did for the first marathon and getting another swing at it, in the hope that anything that affected your performance the first time around won't affect you the second. Start with building in some strides (after a few days of easy runs). If you get through strides without residual niggles, then consider doing maybe 10-20 minutes at tempo as part of like an 8 mile run. Then maybe get an 18 mile run done, with the last 5-6 miles at marathon pace. Then taper again.

Basically, if you want to give it a realistic pop, you have to get back into it as soon as possible, without creating a risk of injury. You have to get a little speed done, just to convince yourself you haven't lost it. Do a long run and finish at marathon pace, just because 5 weeks is a good chunk of time, and then taper off again. Most of all, figure out what went wrong the first time, and don't do it the second time!

Bluesquare

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

If your plan is to try and improve on your Berlin experience, then what you need to do is convince the mind and body that you didn't peak for Berlin.... That it was just a training session (albeit a long hard training session that you need to suitably recover from). Do a mini reverse taper. Once you can comfortably go up and down a stairs without any pain, start building up the mileage and plan on doing 10 very easy miles at the weekend. If you can get through 10 easy miles at the weekend, then you've got around 2.5 weeks of useful training, followed by 1.5 weeks of getting yourself fully healthy to make the start-line... (That means no showers.. And if you must shower, then use no shampoo. And if you must use shampoo, keep it on your right hand side).

2.5 weeks of useful training isn't a huge amount, so you shouldn't be thinking of improvement, but rather maintenance. Basically, you're taking the training that you did for the first marathon and getting another swing at it, in the hope that anything that affected your performance the first time around won't affect you the second. Start with building in some strides (after a few days of easy runs). If you get through strides without residual niggles, then consider doing maybe 10-20 minutes at tempo as part of like an 8 mile run. Then maybe get an 18 mile run done, with the last 5-6 miles at marathon pace. Then taper again.

Basically, if you want to give it a realistic pop, you have to get back into it as soon as possible, without creating a risk of injury. You have to get a little speed done, just to convince yourself you haven't lost it. Do a long run and finish at marathon pace, just because 5 weeks is a good chunk of time, and then taper off again. Most of all, figure out what went wrong the first time, and don't do it the second time!

At least there is other crazy folk out there

overpronator

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Basically, if you want to give it a realistic pop, you have to get back into it as soon as possible, without creating a risk of injury. You have to get a little speed done, just to convince yourself you haven't lost it. Do a long run and finish at marathon pace, just because 5 weeks is a good chunk of time, and then taper off again. Most of all, figure out what went wrong the first time, and don't do it the second time!

Thanks for the post G. All very logical from a training perspective and as you say it has to go hand in hand with not repeating previous mistakes.
For the record, looking at it in the cold light of day I overestimated my shape in Berlin and went out too agressively. I went through half in 1.27.30 and whilst it felt easy aerobically the legs werent up for it for the full distance. I would look to run the first half maybe 3 mins slower and see where im at.

BbSean

Hi Guys,

I have been reading this tread in the background for two months and just wanted to come on here and say thanks to all of those who posted advice over the last while.

This was my fourth attempt at breaking four hours and was the best race I have ever run, smashing my PB by 25 minutes.



If the guy who ran past me and shouted "Up the Dubs" is on here I just want to say thanks, I was too wrecked to say anything at the time - it was appreciated and BTW you were flying! (not a Dubliner, just the name of the club).

Anyways good luck to all of those planning on running Dublin.

I am one of the many who regrets registering earlier in the year.


Sean

dublin runner

overpronator wrote:

Thanks for the post G. All very logical from a training perspective and as you say it has to go hand in hand with not repeating previous mistakes. For the record, looking at it in the cold light of day I overestimated my shape in Berlin and went out too agressively. I went through half in 1.27.30 and whilst it felt easy aerobically the legs werent up for it for the full distance. I would look to run the first half maybe 3 mins slower and see where im at.

At what point did it start to go wrong? 1.27 honestly doesn't sound too fast for your current shape. If it went wrong, i.e the point were 2.50 pace went downhill, before 16 miles I would call it one of those days. We have all been there! The day it just was not there.

I guess you have to ask yourself what you want from Dublin. I personally would be relucant to right the wrong immediately. You could always enjoy the day and run a stonking spring marathon. The time is there, just don't rush into it too early.

davedanon

dublin runner wrote: »

At what point did it start to go wrong? 1.27 honestly doesn't sound too fast for your current shape. If it went wrong, i.e the point were 2.50 pace went downhill, before 16 miles I would call it one of those days. We have all been there! The day it just was not there.

I guess you have to ask yourself what you want from Dublin. I personally would be relucant to right the wrong immediately. You could always enjoy the day and run a stonking spring marathon. The time is there, just don't rush into it too early.

Also personally speaking, but I wouldn't fancy attempting a second marathon pb in dublin, barely 5 weeks after Berlin, a much faster and flatter course.

overpronator

dublin runner wrote: »

At what point did it start to go wrong? 1.27 honestly doesn't sound too fast for your current shape. If it went wrong, i.e the point were 2.50 pace went downhill, before 16 miles I would call it one of those days. We have all been there! The day it just was not there.

I guess you have to ask yourself what you want from Dublin. I personally would be relucant to right the wrong immediately. You could always enjoy the day and run a stonking spring marathon. The time is there, just don't rush into it too early.

Thanks for the post A, makes alot of sense to me. I felt my first tingle of cramp at 7 miles. I knew my day was over in terms of targets by 11 but dogged it out and held off stopping until maybe 17 or 18. Should have just DNFd as i was in a bad way. Everything went, head to toe.
Maybe there was something up but im reluctant to make excuses, but at the same time Dublin probably is just too soon to do anything reasonable. Springtime does make the most sense really.

ThebitterLemon

OP,

I'd a similar experience although I'm not as fast as you.

Thought I was in great shape for Amsterdam 2014, did 3.09 (a slight PB) on the day and was massively disappointed. Entered Valencia 4 weeks later and did a 3.05 (which would have been faster but the heat took a bit out of me towards the end)

I did some maintenance work during the 4 weeks along the lines as outlined by Krusty above.

If you're up for it I don't think you've anything to lose

TbL

BeepBeep67

overpronator wrote: »

Thanks for the post A, makes alot of sense to me. I felt my first tingle of cramp at 7 miles. I knew my day was over in terms of targets by 11 but dogged it out and held off stopping until maybe 17 or 18. Should have just DNFd as i was in a bad way. Everything went, head to toe.
Maybe there was something up but im reluctant to make excuses, but at the same time Dublin probably is just too soon to do anything reasonable. Springtime does make the most sense really.

HTH

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

Kildare Marathon
This is an example of how not to prepare for a marathon or maybe there are some lessons to be learned from it.

I went out and partied hard on the night of the race and ate some junk food. Took a few days off, went for an easy run then smashed my Master’s 3k PB. This was an important milestone, 1 it got me out in front of people and forced me to talk about it and 2 restored the confidence. I went home that night and drew up a plan, loosely based on the last 4 weeks of P&D, in all honesty I didn’t really follow it! I ran an empty 18 the Monday after work, this was a toughie, running with no water or fuel the last 1hr was cruel, but I probably got the benefit of a 22 without the distance. Another Master’s PB the following Saturday followed by a steady 16 the day after with Abhainn and that was really it. The final 2 weeks included bike rides, easy runs, one mixed pace run that worked out at 10 @ MP, days off, nights out on the sauce and way too much inappropriate nutrition choices.

.

overpronator

You should patent that approach!

davedanon

So how did Kildare go that time, D?

davedanon

Anyone else in a post-Berlin funk?

I've a sore throat, and am afraid it's going to turn into something worse. Need to get back running, but don't want to jump in too soon.

Duanington

davedanon wrote: »

Anyone else in a post-Berlin funk?

I've a sore throat, and am afraid it's going to turn into something worse. Need to get back running, but don't want to jump in too soon.

I'm itching to get back at it to be honest D - had a cold and a stomach bug in the lead up to Berlin so hopefully that's me done for a while on that front !

I'll be doing a few very easy runs over the next few days, legs feel good again today but I'll deffo be patient with recovery

adrian522

I'm going to follow the P&D recovery plan, 5 weeks easy runs building up to 40 miles . It had a run scheduled for yesterday but legs were still sore so will start it today.

dublin runner

overpronator wrote: »

Thanks for the post A, makes alot of sense to me. I felt my first tingle of cramp at 7 miles. I knew my day was over in terms of targets by 11 but dogged it out and held off stopping until maybe 17 or 18. Should have just DNFd as i was in a bad way. Everything went, head to toe.
Maybe there was something up but im reluctant to make excuses, but at the same time Dublin probably is just too soon to do anything reasonable. Springtime does make the most sense really.

That sounds very familiar to me. Something very similar happened to me in DCM a few years back. Everything went from 6 miles in (wasn't even anywhere near goal pace). It was not a nice place to be but you live and learn and move on. The time is there for sure. That is the marathon for you; all the hard weeks of training comes down to a small window of opportunity on a Sunday morning. I guess that's also the appeal! It will make you stronger. Relax and enjoy a few beers this week before deciding.

I hear the 3'10 pace group is once again the place to be this year. Just sayin' ........

BeepBeep67

davedanon wrote: »

So how did Kildare go that time, D?

2:57

Krusty_Clown

davedanon wrote: »

So how did Kildare go that time, D?

Similarly, I went from a 3:03 heat-related disaster in Boston, to a 2:46 in Kildare, some 5 weeks later (if memory serves). Important to bear in mind that both Dom and I would typically be high-mileage runners and frequent racers (though current statistics might suggest otherwise!).

The important point here is that I didn't run a PB in Boston that day, and my body didn't go through the demands of holding that pace for the full marathon distance. I was a physical wreck immediately after the race because of the heat, but I was running 3-4 days later, as I hadn't been able to give the marathon 100%. I also didn't set out to run Kildare as fast as my original Boston goal (I had trained for 2:42). Kildare was a 'shot for nothing', and was probably one of my most enjoyable marathon experiences, without the pressure (mental and physical) of a full-blown marathon assault. So a 5 week turnaround is definitely not for everyone. If you did shoot for your PB and didn't make it (e.g. being slightly under-trained), it's unlikely to happen in a race some 5 weeks later. But if you didn't run to your potential in your first marathon because of 3rd party factors then I wouldn't entirely write-off trying to get some return for the training investment.

adrian522

Anyone see this guy on Sunday?

https://www.facebook.com/nadine.pritzkow/videos/981355511975318/

tang1

adrian522 wrote: »

Anyone see this guy on Sunday?

https://www.facebook.com/nadine.pritzkow/videos/981355511975318/

TbL never mentioned being in Berlin at the weekend!!!