Events Centre

flo8s967qjh0nd

Seems to be quite a bit of archaeology going on there at the moment. Very slow progress being made.
AFAIK the student accomodation is gone to An Bord Pleanala whilst the Event Centre itself is with the Minister for an increase of €12 million in government funding.
So we're back to a standstill. I wonder will building of event centre begin in September, as we have been promised?

Mumha

Nancy Unkempt Shop wrote: »

Seems to be quite a bit of archaeology going on there at the moment. Very slow progress being made.
AFAIK the student accomodation is gone to An Bord Pleanala whilst the Event Centre itself is with the Minister for an increase of €12 million in government funding.
So we're back to a standstill. I wonder will building of event centre begin in September, as we have been promised?

Someone I know was speaking with someone on the construction side (with a view to getting work), back in early March, and they said realistically they wouldn't be getting fully underway for another 9 months or so. So the September timescale for it to start up is probably close to it, probably to have the site fully cleared before Christmas. The only positive I take from that, is that it does look like it will happen.

flo8s967qjh0nd

The event centre twitter account now says funding shortfall is 18 million and not 12 million. Story in the examiner romorrow.
What a mess.

D'Agger

Sorry lads, we meant 12million Sterling, so 18 million Euro

Jokeshop

namloc1980

Think this might be the final nail in the coffin. What an utter farce.

Mumha

namloc1980 wrote: »

Think this might be the final nail in the coffin. What an utter farce.

Not quite, if you remember back to February, BAM were told to go and come back with a final figure, of which this extra €6m is contingency. We knew about the extra €12m.

Let's not forget that the reason for most of the extra cost (aside from more money BAM can squeeze out of the public purse) is that the event centre will be increased from 10,600sqm to 13,500sqm, at the request of operators Live Nation.

What's disgusting and shameful is that the old O'Callaghan political cronies were crawling all over this in the media, trying to whoop up hysteria. This is just the type of nonsense why the Government have been trying to keep this project away from the usual old deals/corruption that used to characterise the way things were done in Cork.

D'Agger

Article in the Examiner today stating that the 6m contingency was expected to be fronted by BAM, this isn't the case and BAM were unavailable for comment. Perhaps there's a good reason as per why this is the case, but you'd have thought BAM would have known this or made it clear at meetings, you can be certain this was discussed previously

vkid

Mumha wrote: »

This is just the type of nonsense why the Government have been trying to keep this project away from the usual old deals/corruption that used to characterise the way things were done in Cork.

I think there is a long road to travel before you can say the above with any level of certainty. This looks exactly like the usual deals that have been done around large construction projects in this country over the years. Similarly with the national Childrens hospital, the cost of which has now gone to 1 billion....BAM also involved there.

Personally I am not buying the construction inflation line either, that is being bandied about at the moment for some of these works.

But sure whatever you are having yourself.

namloc1980

Mumha wrote: »

Not quite, if you remember back to February, BAM were told to go and come back with a final figure, of which this extra €6m is contingency. We knew about the extra €12m.

Let's not forget that the reason for most of the extra cost (aside from more money BAM can squeeze out of the public purse) is that the event centre will be increased from 10,600sqm to 13,500sqm, at the request of operators Live Nation.

What's disgusting and shameful is that the old O'Callaghan political cronies were crawling all over this in the media, trying to whoop up hysteria. This is just the type of nonsense why the Government have been trying to keep this project away from the usual old deals/corruption that used to characterise the way things were done in Cork.

Back in February the Council said that BAM were going to front the €6m contingency, now they are looking for it from the Government. Big big difference. How in the space of a couple of months did it go from a 'contingency' to a firm request for more taxpayers money? This whole saga is a complete joke, and the joke is on the taxpayers unfortunately.

flo8s967qjh0nd

namloc1980 wrote: »

Back in February the Council said that BAM were going to front the €6m contingency, now they are looking for it from the Government. Big big difference. How in the space of a couple of months did it go from a 'contingency' to a firm request for more taxpayers money? This whole saga is a complete joke, and the joke is on the taxpayers unfortunately.

Minister Coveney has given a very firm signal that the government will hand over more money for this project. He has repeatedly said it.
BAM would be mad not to ask for as much as possible if Coveneny is going around writing blank cheques. Even if Government knocks off a few million, they'll be sitting pretty.

BUNK1982

If you look at the 3x players involved in this - BAM are a global construction firm with a track record for large scale construction projects, Live Nation are a multinational events company and are crucial to the long term viability of the events centre, then you have Cork City Council....

namloc1980

BUNK1982 wrote: »

If you look at the 3x players involved in this - BAM are a global construction firm with a track record for large scale construction projects, Live Nation are a multinational events company and are crucial to the long term viability of the events centre, then you have Cork City Council....

Are the Council the problem here?

namloc1980

Nancy Unkempt Shop wrote: »

Minister Coveney has given a very firm signal that the government will hand over more money for this project. He has repeatedly said it.
BAM would be mad not to ask for as much as possible if Coveneny is going around writing blank cheques. Even if Government knocks off a few million, they'll be sitting pretty.

I would take anything Coveney says with a large pinch of salt at this stage. He's still claiming the turning the sod photo opportunity wasn't an election stunt. Credibility out the window.

BUNK1982

namloc1980 wrote: »

Are the Council the problem here?

I have no idea - just pure speculation from me but if you step back from it.

Live Nation have to be involved, the place would close down after a year if they're not in. Running venues like this is bread and butter stuff for them so surely they know what is required. The sooner this is up and running the sooner they make money.

BAM have several projects on the go around the city and country - how long did the Grand Parade refurb take? The sooner they get this done, they get paid and move on to a new project.

Cork City Council - what's their track record in delivering large scale infrastructure? How many councillers have an opinion on what should be done with the events centre? How often do you hear them in the news harping on about it??

flo8s967qjh0nd

BUNK1982 wrote: »

BAM have several projects on the go around the city and country - how long did the Grand Parade refurb take? The sooner they get this done, they get paid and move on to a new project.

Worth remembering though that BAM are developers (and builders) on the event project whereas they are builders only on most of the other projects we've seen them complete in recent times. That means they are going to retain ownership and have a big stake in the whole site and event centre into the future.
There's no doubt BAM can build stuff. They just don't seem to be able to develop a project (funding, planning, delivery, etc.). They've really embarrassed themselves here.

D'Agger

Nancy Unkempt Shop wrote: »

Worth remembering though that BAM are developers (and builders) on the event project whereas they are builders only on most of the other projects we've seen them complete in recent times. That means they are going to retain ownership and have a big stake in the whole site and event centre into the future.
There's no doubt BAM can build stuff. They just don't seem to be able to develop a project (funding, planning, delivery, etc.). They've really embarrassed themselves here.

It certainly doesn't look good for BAM - particularly given they're a large company with multiple projects globally - right now business is booming for them, so an inability to pivot slightly for this project isn't a valid excuse imo - if they've so much invested in this, then they should invest more

That said, CCC stating they were under the impression that BAM would be fronting the 6million shows either a massive communications flaw, or just finger pointing from CCC at BAM. Either way, those in charge of the project are f?cking it up in a very public manner

gifted

BAM have a history of looking for extra money....they are well known in construction circles for squeezing every last cent that they can make.

It would be very interesting to see how many state contracts it has won in the last 6 years....

BUNK1982

What is the ownership situation? Assuming it does get built, Live Nation will operate it but who will own the facility??

This was probably covered earlier, not the nuns anyway I hope.

kub

gifted wrote: »

BAM have a history of looking for extra money....they are well known in construction circles for squeezing every last cent that they can make.

It would be very interesting to see how many state contracts it has won in the last 6 years....

A company with a turnover probably greater than Irelands GDP, of course they get lots of Government jobs, apparently they are one of the few contractors that can finance projects until actually complete.

But their practices are interesting to say the least.

namloc1980

kub wrote: »

A company with a turnover probably greater than Irelands GDP, of course they get lots of Government jobs, apparently they are one of the few contractors that can finance projects until actually complete.

But their practices are interesting to say the least.

Just on a fact check: BAM's turnover is about 3% of Ireland's GDP.

flo8s967qjh0nd

Nancy Unkempt Shop wrote: »

Minister Coveney has given a very firm signal that the government will hand over more money for this project. He has repeatedly said it.
BAM would be mad not to ask for as much as possible if Coveneny is going around writing blank cheques. Even if Government knocks off a few million, they'll be sitting pretty.

Simon Coveney: There will be no blank cheque for Cork events centre
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/simon-coveney-there-will-be-no-blank-cheque-for-cork-events-centre-449736.html

namloc1980

Nancy Unkempt Shop wrote: »

Simon Coveney: There will be no blank cheque for Cork events centre
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/simon-coveney-there-will-be-no-blank-cheque-for-cork-events-centre-449736.html

Mr Coveney's language has changed:

- "I’m interested in making it happen. And, hopefully, we can get an agreement across the line.” Interested?? Hopefully??
- "Just because there’s an ask of €18m doesn’t mean that that money will be sanctioned.”
- "I’m not sure whether we are willing to put that level of money in at all".

Doesn't sound like someone who believes this will happen. Any idea when the decision on the extra €18m is due out or that on the long finger as well?

KCAccidental

That Beamish & Crawford memorial student accommodation complex is really going to be something!

kub

This bit caught my eye, I am correct in thinking that BAM also built that new terminal at the airport?


He pointed out that the development of the Cork Airport terminal cost twice what was predicted at the start of that project: ?We don?t want this [events centre] project to go over budget. We want to sign off on a clear agreement and deliver it on budget.?

Meursault

namloc1980 wrote: »

Mr Coveney's language has changed:

- "I’m interested in making it happen. And, hopefully, we can get an agreement across the line.” Interested?? Hopefully??
- "Just because there’s an ask of €18m doesn’t mean that that money will be sanctioned.”
- "I’m not sure whether we are willing to put that level of money in at all".

Doesn't sound like someone who believes this will happen. Any idea when the decision on the extra €18m is due out or that on the long finger as well?

I think this is prudent of Simon Coveney. What is the alternative? If he was quoted as saying, we are going to build this, whatever the cost, you know what BAM will do. BAM doesn't have to answer to anyone, other than their shareholders, who demand the biggest profit margin possible for their projects. BAM will take the govt for every penny they can.

I assume what is happening here is that the Coveney is saying they are open to extra funding, but they are looking for further detail on the costings and value for money.

namloc1980

Meursault wrote: »

I think this is prudent of Simon Coveney. What is the alternative? If he was quoted as saying, we are going to build this, whatever the cost, you know what BAM will do. BAM doesn't have to answer to anyone, other than their shareholders, who demand the biggest profit margin possible for their projects. BAM will take the govt for every penny they can.

I assume what is happening here is that the Coveney is saying they are open to extra funding, but they are looking for further detail on the costings and value for money.

Given how poorly he's handled the whole situation I would have no confidence in what he says anymore. I personally think he's positioning himself for the inevitable cancellation of the project and trying to shift focus and blame away from himself.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Meursault wrote: »

I assume what is happening here is that the Coveney is saying they are open to extra funding, but they are looking for further detail on the costings and value for money.

All of which should have been done a long time ago, not at this stage if managed correctly.
Not all Coveneys fault, but he needs to pull the finger out and not play this media 'blame game'.

Meursault

Myles Mealy Drunk wrote: »

All of which should have been done a long time ago, not at this stage if managed correctly.
Not all Coveneys fault, but he needs to pull the finger out and not play this media 'blame game'.

The request for extra funding was only announced recently though?

I'm not saying for a second that Coveney comes out looking well from all of this, but surely the biggest culprits are BAM for not referring to Live Nation on the original designs, and also deliberately (in my opinion) misleading all investors on how much this was actually going to cost.

Because BAM can choose not to accountable to the public, or give interviews, etc, the obvious target for criticism will be the politicians.

Literally every major project in the country came in well over budget. we cannot be surprised that this one is heading that was also. I don't care, as long as it is built.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Meursault wrote: »

The request for extra funding was only announced recently though?

I'm not saying for a second that Coveney comes out looking well from all of this, but surely the biggest culprits are BAM for not referring to Live Nation on the original designs, and also deliberately (in my opinion) misleading all investors on how much this was actually going to cost.

Because BAM can choose not to accountable to the public, or give interviews, etc, the obvious target for criticism will be the politicians.

Literally every major project in the country came in well over budget. we cannot be surprised that this one is heading that was also. I don't care, as long as it is built.

The extra funding, yes. But the project is years in the making and planning; a screw up by all involved.
Projects usually come in over budget when nobody is truely held accountable; same for this mess.

Meursault

munstermagic11 wrote: »

The extra funding, yes. But the project is years in the making and planning; a screw up by all involved.
Projects usually come in over budget when nobody is truely held accountable; same for this mess.

Accountability doesn't exist anywhere in Ireland. At least not when the govt or public sector are involved, but that is a different discussion altogether.