Events Centre

nlrkjos

I honestly reckon this whole thing should be just sent back out to tender. They've made a hames of the whole thing and to a lot of Cork people it's now become a joke, Cork City Council (NAMA also) have a lot of land they can lease long term down the docks to allow this project advance, also the new developments in the dock area would benefit from an event center, my own personal choice would be in the Monaghan road area.

Roger Hassenforder

nlrkjos wrote: »

I honestly reckon this whole thing should be just sent back out to tender.

Aye
+1

flo8s967qjh0nd

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Aye
+1

That's where it's heading anyway. No way it'll go ahead on south main street. Just a matter of time until they come clean on that.

gifted

Makes no difference what happens it...BAM won't be out of pocket...

mire

Why do people think that this project would be any different if the location/developer was changed? The location has nothing whatsoever to do with the long delays.

snotboogie

Interesting post on another forum:

Talking to an engineer today that had carried out some consultancy work for BAM and the word on the ground is that the event centre will not go ahead at this location. The sites small fingerprint, its archaeological significance and also apparently the business plan is not viable. Bam/Heineken won the bid on a number of factors including cost but if extra state funding is provided, changing the terms, then there is also the possibility of legal action from the failed bidders including O'Callaghan Developments. It seems that parts of the site will be capped to protect any potential archaeological structures with the commercial section and student apartments going ahead eventually. He heard that they are prepared to "Gift" the event centre portion of the site to the city council but in essence if it went ahead as is, it would turn out to be a while elephant. There is a move to examine the possibility of a scaled down centre on Hogan's Quay but this would be at least four years down the line. Its just second hand information but I think is a reasonable summary of where things stand.

fonzy951

Not so sure about that information, it doesn't make too much sense:

- I can't see BAM gifting the event centre section of the site to the city council, its a large valuable section of the site. And don't forget BAM have already spent 7m on designing the event centre.

- BAM had to redesign a larger event centre to make it viable as requested by Live Nation, but this engineer reckons scaling it down is necessary, nah Live Nation call the shots on this.

- A legal challenge can only happen if Government provide more that 10m to BAM, so 10m it is.

- Also the site is large enough and its in a decent central location where all the nightlife is. The redesign has been completed for months, BAM are awaiting funding from Government.

namloc1980

Personally I think this is dead in its current form at least. 2 years since the sod returning next February. This is why people get very cynical about any of these announcements that are made. Things get announced and then just die off, especially when state agencies of any description are involved.

snotboogie

fonzy951 wrote: »

Not so sure about that information, it doesn't make too much sense:

- I can't see BAM gifting the event centre section of the site to the city council, its a large valuable section of the site. And don't forget BAM have already spent 7m on designing the event centre.

- BAM had to redesign a larger event centre to make it viable as requested by Live Nation, but this engineer reckons scaling it down is necessary, nah Live Nation call the shots on this.

- A legal challenge can only happen if Government provide more that 10m to BAM, so 10m it is.

- Also the site is large enough and its in a decent central location where all the nightlife is. The redesign has been completed for months, BAM are awaiting funding from Government.

Then why did BAM ask for 12-18 million? Surely they would have known the legal terms of the tender that they won?

flo8s967qjh0nd

snotboogie wrote: »

Then why did BAM ask for 12-18 million? Surely they would have known the legal terms of the tender that they won?

The council had to get legal advice on this matter. I don't think it's crystal clear to anyone - just best legal advice. BAM are always going to ask for the most they think they can get away with.

flo8s967qjh0nd

snotboogie wrote: »

Interesting post on another forum:

I can't see them gifting anything to the city. BAM (as they keep telling us) have ploughed their own money into this mess. They'll want to recoup that once the thing goes belly up.

fonzy951

snotboogie wrote: »

Then why did BAM ask for 12-18 million? Surely they would have known the legal terms of the tender that they won?

The redesign was done to make the event centre larger for viability as requested by Live Nation, so BAM went off and did a redesign. The extra cost of this design and the building of a larger centre was the reason BAM requested extra funding from the Government.
The city council and government (not BAM) had to get legal advice on what extra funding they could legally provide BAM. Remember this redesign was not part of the original tender process.

fonzy951

Nancy Unkempt Shop wrote: »

I can't see them gifting anything to the city. BAM (as they keep telling us) have ploughed their own money into this mess. They'll want to recoup that once the thing goes belly up.

If its goes belly up, they will have lost 7 million on design alone, how can they recoup that? Not forgetting what they spent on archaeological surveys etc.. I'd imagine around a 10 million loss overall.

Meursault

Its very difficult to stay positive about this. Im still hoping that it happens, even though it appears increasingly unlikely, as the weeks/months pass by.

If the ball is in the govt's court (and it appears to be, by the sounds of it), I dont understand what they are waiting for. they offered the extra 10m. why are they procrastinating on it now?

presumably if BAM realised it was a lost cause, they would have walked away from it by now, given the number of other large scale projects they are working on

fonzy951

Meursault wrote: »

Its very difficult to stay positive about this. Im still hoping that it happens, even though it appears increasingly unlikely, as the weeks/months pass by.

If the ball is in the govt's court (and it appears to be, by the sounds of it), I dont understand what they are waiting for. they offered the extra 10m. why are they procrastinating on it now?

presumably if BAM realised it was a lost cause, they would have walked away from it by now, given the number of other large scale projects they are working on

The Government, Heather Humphries department STILL haven't sanctioned the 10m yet, that's the bottleneck right there, she and her department must be very busy with other things I think BAM have been wrongly blamed for certain things, Live Nation forced a redesign after the tender process and BAM quite rightly requested extra government funding to reflect this.

I'm pretty confident it will go ahead early next year, BAM will lose out on 30m Government funding, plus what have already invested in design, redesign, archaeological surveys etc... thats a fair chunk of cash right there.'

snotboogie

fonzy951 wrote: »

The redesign was done to make the event centre larger for viability as requested by Live Nation, so BAM went off and did a redesign. The extra cost of this design and the building of a larger centre was the reason BAM requested extra funding from the Government.
The city council and government (not BAM) had to get legal advice on what extra funding they could legally provide BAM. Remember this redesign was not part of the original tender process.

Fair enough, thanks for the explanation

namloc1980

I don't know how anyone could be confident in this proceeding. There are no contracts signed. The extra funding is up in the air. Joke of a situation really. Would love to be wrong but think this is a dead duck. Mr Coveney has gone very quiet recently.

j8wk2feszrnpao

I’m not expecting anything on this any longer.

Is it not the City Council who ultimately controls the project? I understand the government funding situation, but the City Council in terms of their management of this (from the bidding process, to selection, and ensuring proper oversight) has being extremely poor.

tototoe

fonzy951 wrote: »

The Government, Heather Humphries department STILL haven't sanctioned the 10m yet, that's the bottleneck right there, she and her department must be very busy with other things I think BAM have been wrongly blamed for certain things, Live Nation forced a redesign after the tender process and BAM quite rightly requested extra government funding to reflect this.

I'm pretty confident it will go ahead early next year, BAM will lose out on 30m Government funding, plus what have already invested in design, redesign, archaeological surveys etc... thats a fair chunk of cash right there.'

Have bam any experience operating an events centre of this sort.

How can you bid on a.project with no experience in the field, and then get someone involved who knows actually how to run an events center, after you secure the contract to operate it. ..then realise your bid was badly.designed, under budget and essentially of questionable commercial viability...so you go looking for more money from the public...and blame live nation

Does not add up and questions should be asked as to how they were awarded this at all.

Roger Hassenforder

Live nation were involved in both bids.
Suddenly it needed a redesign after BAM winning the tender.
GTFO

Even if they get less than they want this time, they'll start construction and in a few months lo and behold hit another "snag"
Piling off... More archaeology... Difficult bedrock.or something else that'll have their snouts back in the public trough.

End it now and start again.

EnzoScifo

BAM will be happy to fill the site with Student apartments and will make a profit on them with tax breaks. They have already reduced the commercial aspect of the plan in favour of more apartments. A shame really that such a central site in the middle of the entertainment district will be nothing more than bland blocks.

flo8s967qjh0nd

fonzy951 wrote: »

If its goes belly up, they will have lost 7 million on design alone, how can they recoup that?

the archaeology was needed whatever gets built. BAM will bin the event centre plans and build office/ student accomodation with a bit of retail.
And the council will slap them on the back and say well done.

cgcsb

An event centre may be included in this site in Limerick:

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/279332/masterplan-to-be-drawn-up-for-development-of-iconic-limerick-riverside-site.html

zetalambda

cgcsb wrote: »

An event centre may be included in this site in Limerick:

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/279332/masterplan-to-be-drawn-up-for-development-of-iconic-limerick-riverside-site.html

If it can't be done in Cork then it definitely can't be done in Limerick.

j8wk2feszrnpao

zetalambda wrote: »

If it can't be done in Cork then it definitely can't be done in Limerick.

Why?
Proposed motorway to Cork.
M18 for Clare/Galway/Connacht traffic.
M7 for the Midlands.

Just cause we can’t get it done doesn’t rule out others.

namloc1980

zetalambda wrote: »

If it can't be done in Cork then it definitely can't be done in Limerick.

Limerick are very proactive in their developments

EIB lends Limerick Council €85m.

Fair play to Limerick. No point in waiting around for central government, just getting on with it. Cork councils left behind again.

Roger Hassenforder

zetalambda wrote: »

If it can't be done in Cork then it definitely can't be done in Limerick.

Jesus, that sounds so bitter and conceited

mire

namloc1980 wrote: »

Limerick are very proactive in their developments

EIB lends Limerick Council €85m.

Fair play to Limerick. No point in waiting around for central government, just getting on with it. Cork councils left behind again.

I would take a different perspective on this – In commercial terms, cities of limerick and cork are two entirely different prospects, and limerick is probably about 10 to 15 years behind cork. The work of Limerick City and County Council, and the regeneration body is admirable and to be commended. However, what’s happening is that the local authority is borrowing money to facilitate a development that the private sector is currently not prepared to engage with.

Don’t get me wrong – this is commendable, but from a limerick perspective, this is somewhat worrying – because one has to ask why is the private sector not engaging with this type of development in the city centre? It is essentially a project about the same size as Albert quay (by JCD), in terms of job numbers and commercial floor space; Albert quay was planned, developed, rented and ultimately sold within three years as a private development, for which was a very strong market; when German pension funds are buying completed developments in your city, is an extremely important sign.

The limerick market is obviously much smaller and less viable than Cork’s at the moment – that is why the state is effectively part subsidizing commercial development. This is good to see, in that it is an example of the local authority actively enabling development. However, the reason that something similar isn’t happening in Cork is that the conditions are such that the private sector doesn’t need this level of state intervention for office developments. I would be worried if private office developments in Cork needed this type of intervention.

It is needed in the case of an event centre of course, because they generally don’t fund themselves. In the event centre isn’t viable cork, it would be very unlikely to be considered viable in a smaller urban centre.

namloc1980

mire wrote: »

I would take a different perspective on this – In commercial terms, cities of limerick and cork are two entirely different prospects, and limerick is probably about 10 to 15 years behind cork. The work of Limerick City and County Council, and the regeneration body is admirable and to be commended. However, what’s happening is that the local authority is borrowing money to facilitate a development that the private sector is currently not prepared to engage with.

Don’t get me wrong – this is commendable, but from a limerick perspective, this is somewhat worrying – because one has to ask why is the private sector not engaging with this type of development in the city centre? It is essentially a project about the same size as Albert quay (by JCD), in terms of job numbers and commercial floor space; Albert quay was planned, developed, rented and ultimately sold within three years as a private development, for which was a very strong market; when German pension funds are buying completed developments in your city, is an extremely important sign.

The limerick market is obviously much smaller and less viable than Cork’s at the moment – that is why the state is effectively part subsidizing commercial development. This is good to see, in that it is an example of the local authority actively enabling development. However, the reason that something similar isn’t happening in Cork is that the conditions are such that the private sector doesn’t need this level of state intervention for office developments. I would be worried if private office developments in Cork needed this type of intervention.

It is needed in the case of an event centre of course, because they generally don’t fund themselves. In the event centre isn’t viable cork, it would be very unlikely to be considered viable in a smaller urban centre.

The site is owned by Limerick Council. They bought it off NAMA as a strategic development site in around 2011. Why would private entities spend money building on a site owned by someone else i.e. the Local Authority? That would make absolutely no sense whatsoever. It's completely incomparable to fully private developments in Cork. According to the articles the Revenue Commissioners will be locating to the new site and they have a sizable office location in Limerick. Nice state backed tenant to have Day 1. On another point the EIB don't throw around €85m on speculative developments - they obviously view this as extremely viable.

Cork on the other hand has vast space in the Docklands continuing to lie idle. Waiting for the private sector to develop it means it will continue to lie idle for many decades to come.

fonzy951

namloc1980 wrote: »

The site is owned by Limerick Council. They bought it off NAMA as a strategic development site in around 2011. Why would private entities spend money building on a site owned by someone else i.e. the Local Authority? That would make absolutely no sense whatsoever. It's completely incomparable to fully private developments in Cork. According to the articles the Revenue Commissioners will be locating to the new site and they have a sizable office location in Limerick. Nice state backed tenant to have Day 1. On another point the EIB don't throw around €85m on speculative developments - they obviously view this as extremely viable.

Cork on the other hand has vast space in the Docklands continuing to lie idle. Waiting for the private sector to develop it means it will continue to lie idle for many decades to come.

The private sector are developing in Cork Docklands:
- Albert Quay One (JCD) completed.
- Navigation Square (OCD) is at construction.
- Horgan's Quay HQ will start next year if planning is approved (huge development).
- Custom House development going to planning early next year.

If you combine Albert Quay One and Navigation Square office space alone its roughly the equivalent of the proposed opera office development in Limerick.
You need private developers, local authorities couldn't take the risk.

Other current office developments, 85 South mall (JCD) is currently at construction and Camden Quay site (Stone Work properties) is being cleared and going to construction. And don't forget BAM's plans

How could you expect a local authority even to finance those projects, private developers are critical.