Events Centre

mire

namloc1980 wrote: »

The site is owned by Limerick Council. They bought it off NAMA as a strategic development site in around 2011. Why would private entities spend money building on a site owned by someone else i.e. the Local Authority? That would make absolutely no sense whatsoever. It's completely incomparable to fully private developments in Cork. According to the articles the Revenue Commissioners will be locating to the new site and they have a sizable office location in Limerick. Nice state backed tenant to have Day 1. On another point the EIB don't throw around €85m on speculative developments - they obviously view this as extremely viable.

Cork on the other hand has vast space in the Docklands continuing to lie idle. Waiting for the private sector to develop it means it will continue to lie idle for many decades to come.

That’s useful to know, and it backs up my core point.

So this is a public sector project, backed by the state and facilitated by the local authorities. My point being that this type of commercial development is not currently being advanced by the private sector in limerick. I would imagine that the European Investment bank is financing this because a state body – the revenue commissioners – have already committed to this project. What’s happening here, and I actually agree with it, is that the state is stepping in because the market is not prepared to do so. The viability issue is only solved because of the state subsidy [acquiring land cheaply and putting in a state agency as an occupier]. This may act as a catalyst, and hopefully the private sector will also invest in limerick city centre.

As another poster has said, in Cork, there has already been significant Docklands development activity, between the historic city centre and the south and north docks proper, including some very significant developments underway and in planning. Despite this, I do think the state needs to support the continuation of the Docklands project.

mire

fonzy951 wrote: »

The private sector are developing in Cork Docklands:
- Albert Quay One (JCD) completed.
- Navigation Square (OCD) is at construction.
- Horgan's Quay HQ will start next year if planning is approved (huge development).
- Custom House development going to planning early next year.

If you combine Albert Quay One and Navigation Square office space alone its roughly the equivalent of the proposed opera office development in Limerick.
You need private developers, local authorities couldn't take the risk.

Other current office developments, 85 South mall (JCD) is currently at construction and Camden Quay site (Stone Work properties) is being cleared and going to construction. And don't forget BAM's plans

How could you expect a local authority even to finance those projects, private developers are critical.

Don’t forget that the Cork Docklands project – outlined in the original Masterplan – includes the following sites/locations - Lapps Quay/Eglinton Street/Elysian/Anglesea Street/Albert Quay/Anderson’s quay/Custom House Quay – in addition to the current ‘quayside’ docks further east. In fact, that strategy emphasised the importance of developing the east city centre expansion zone before pursuing large scale developments further down the docklands. Many of these areas have been subject to a very significant transformation, for hotels offices residential etc.

http://www.corkcity.ie/services/docklands/planning/corkdocklandsdevelopmentstrategy2001/

This notion that nothing has happened in Cork Docklands is simply not the case. It has certainly underperformed however, That is largely a result of failure of the government to intervene and support the project.

namloc1980

Nobody said nothing has happened in Cork Docklands but relative to the opportunity and possibilities, the progress has been extremely poor. Central government have consistently failed to give any boost or support to the Docklands in Cork. They've refused to make it a special development zone and have put zero effort or resources into the infrastructure down there. Until that changes then development will continue to be piecemeal at best. The new capital plan is out the end of the month. We'll see what sort of investment Cork will get - I wouldn't hold my breath.

mire

namloc1980 wrote: »

Nobody said nothing has happened in Cork Docklands but relative to the opportunity and possibilities, the progress has been extremely poor. Central government have consistently failed to give any boost or support to the Docklands in Cork. They've refused to make it a special development zone and have put zero effort or resources into the infrastructure down there. Until that changes then development will continue to be piecemeal at best. The new capital plan is out the end of the month. We'll see what sort of investment Cork will get - I wouldn't hold my breath.

I fully agree; i do not think that government understands what it takes to support regional development.

snotboogie

namloc1980 wrote: »

Nobody said nothing has happened in Cork Docklands but relative to the opportunity and possibilities, the progress has been extremely poor. Central government have consistently failed to give any boost or support to the Docklands in Cork. They've refused to make it a special development zone and have put zero effort or resources into the infrastructure down there. Until that changes then development will continue to be piecemeal at best. The new capital plan is out the end of the month. We'll see what sort of investment Cork will get - I wouldn't hold my breath.

To be fair though, more has happened in the last 24 months than in the 17 years before that.

zetalambda

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Jesus, that sounds so bitter and conceited

It's more of a reflection on your personality that you interpreted it that way.

I'm referring to it's financial viability. Even with 30 million government funding, they can't seem to get this off the ground in Cork. I can't see how a similar event center could be built in Limerick where it will get very little or zero public funding.

Roger Hassenforder

zetalambda wrote: »

It's more of a reflection on your personality that you interpreted it that way.

I'm referring to it's financial viability. Even with 30 million government funding, they can't seem to get this off the ground in Cork. I can't see how a similar event could be built in Limerick where it will get very little or zero public funding.

Sure I don't know you at all, and whether you are bitter and conceited!
I said that sounds bitter and conceited, maybe you should have fleshed it out a bit more as you just have, rather than.


If Limerick get it off the ground, fair focks to them. Cork has made a monumental shambles of it here. Looks like we'll be all on the buses to see Nathan Carter in Limerick. Munster probably has capacity for one such event centre? Thomond Park was upgraded ahead of Musgrave in similar circumstances. Limerick have Michael Noonan, and JP will put his hand in his pocket, pull out a few bob if needs be.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Limerick have Michael Noonan, and JP will put his hand in his pocket, pull out a few bob if needs be.

He might be a key component. He aided the expenses involved for the rebuilt of the Gaelic Grounds and the refurb of Adare Manor has been reported as very successful.

AugustusMinimus

I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again. We’ll be driving to Limerick for concerts in a few years on a ****ty road.

Hell, they’ll also have a motorway to Foynes port while the M28 will be cancelled.

Limerick are doing everything right and Cork everything wrong. Our City and County Councils are inept and our Government couldn’t give a **** about this city as our TD’s are beyond useless.

We have an Airport hamstrung by debt (promises lost) and its being ruled from Dublin while Shannon has autonomy and much less debt.

I could go on. What a ****ing mess.

mire

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again. We’ll be driving to Limerick for concerts in a few years on a ****ty road.

Hell, they’ll also have a motorway to Foynes port while the M28 will be cancelled.

Limerick are doing everything right and Cork everything wrong. Our City and County Councils are inept and our Government couldn’t give a **** about this city as our TD’s are beyond useless.

We have an Airport hamstrung by debt (promises lost) and its being ruled from Dublin while Shannon has autonomy and much less debt.

I could go on. What a ****ing mess.

Chill a bit, this is mostly unnecessary panic.

One could argue that Limerick needs this level of active government support and subvention. Because its fundamental economic circumstances are quite fragile. Cork doesn't really need to worry, in the same way that Manchester doesn't really worry too much about the level of government funding/subsidy that Liverpool attracts. On the other hand, Waterford should be seriously concerned.

AugustusMinimus

mire wrote: »

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again. We’ll be driving to Limerick for concerts in a few years on a ****ty road.

Hell, they’ll also have a motorway to Foynes port while the M28 will be cancelled.

Limerick are doing everything right and Cork everything wrong. Our City and County Councils are inept and our Government couldn’t give a **** about this city as our TD’s are beyond useless.

We have an Airport hamstrung by debt (promises lost) and its being ruled from Dublin while Shannon has autonomy and much less debt.

I could go on. What a ****ing mess.

Chill a bit, this is mostly unnecessary panic.

One could argue that Limerick needs this level of active government support and subvention. Because its fundamental economic circumstances are quite fragile. Cork doesn't really need to worry, in the same way that Manchester doesn't really worry too much about the level of government funding/subsidy that Liverpool attracts. On the other hand, Waterford should be seriously concerned.

You wouldn’t be concerned that an Event Centre could be built in Limerick which will basically stop one being built in Cork in the next 50 years. You serious?

Roger Hassenforder

Limerick isn't as fragile as one might think.
It has the second highest disposable income after Dublin and ahead of Kildare and Cork http://www.thejournal.ie/average-incomes-2014-3300484-Mar2017/
(probably a function of property prices though)
Average income is <2k behind Cork.

Limerick and Galway now linked by Motorway to each other, wonder will can we expect some synergies between them.

AugustusMinimus

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Limerick isn't as fragile as one might think.
It has the second highest disposable income after Dublin and ahead of Kildare and Cork http://www.thejournal.ie/average-incomes-2014-3300484-Mar2017/
(probably a function of property prices though)
Average income is <2k behind Cork.

Limerick and Galway now linked by Motorway to each other, wonder will can we expect some synergies between them.

Limerick has a lot of advantages over Cork.

- Better politicians
- willingness and want for proper development
- An independent airport with proper US destinations
- Now, a better road network and less congestion
- Way more public funding
- Better existing rail infrastructure (some unused) which can be put back into use

Here in Cork, we don’t seem to give a ****. New building in the dock lands get proposed, people complain it’s too tall. M28 scheme gets launched, people complain about everything. We seem to value people painting switch boxes more than actual development. It’s crazy.

Limerick is on the way up and Cork will get a shock in 20 or 30 years when Limerick will overtake it in everything bar population.

Roger Hassenforder

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Limerick has a lot of advantages over Cork.

- Better politicians
- willingness and want for proper development
- An independent airport with proper US destinations
- Now, a better road network and less congestion
- Way more public funding
- Better existing rail infrastructure (some unused) which can be put back into use

Here in Cork, we don’t seem to give a ****. New building in the dock lands get proposed, people complain it’s too tall. M28 scheme gets launched, people complain about everything. We seem to value people painting switch boxes more than actual development. It’s crazy.

Limerick is on the way up and Cork will get a shock in 20 or 30 years when Limerick will overtake it in everything bar population.

Limerick people seem to have a different attitude as well, more of a stoic, "just get on with it" attitude. They've had serous problems in the past, but seem to have overcome them. its a great city now.
A problem with Cork IMO is we want to be more like Dublin, when we should be striving to more different from Dublin. Offer something else, something unique. Not just a smaller version of Dublin. Some of those plans from the Save our City campaign were stunning.

flo8s967qjh0nd

All this talk of Limerick. Like most people here, I've been to Limerick. If the sums don't work out for an event centre in Cork, they certainly won't work out in Limerick.
I'd be the first to give out about the event centre but there is some really good stuff happening in Cork. Most of it despite the city council rather than because of it.

snotboogie

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again. We’ll be driving to Limerick for concerts in a few years on a ****ty road.

Hell, they’ll also have a motorway to Foynes port while the M28 will be cancelled.

Limerick are doing everything right and Cork everything wrong. Our City and County Councils are inept and our Government couldn’t give a **** about this city as our TD’s are beyond useless.

We have an Airport hamstrung by debt (promises lost) and its being ruled from Dublin while Shannon has autonomy and much less debt.

I could go on. What a ****ing mess.

Look at the performance of Shannon and Cork, going by pax and growth numbers we look to be better off with the DAA

fonzy951

snotboogie wrote: »

Look at the performance of Shannon and Cork, going by pax and growth numbers we look to be better off with the DAA

Agree, Cork Airport has grown very well last year and this year, where Shannon has lost a few routes and capacity on other routes (Clare politicians have raised concern over it), also Cork has a lot more European destinations and excellent frequency to key hubs Heathrow, Schipol, CDG for TATL, Asia etc... which is a lot more important than a few destinations to the US.

fonzy951

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Limerick has a lot of advantages over Cork.

- Better politicians
- willingness and want for proper development
- An independent airport with proper US destinations
- Now, a better road network and less congestion
- Way more public funding
- Better existing rail infrastructure (some unused) which can be put back into use

Here in Cork, we don’t seem to give a ****. New building in the dock lands get proposed, people complain it’s too tall. M28 scheme gets launched, people complain about everything. We seem to value people painting switch boxes more than actual development. It’s crazy.

Limerick is on the way up and Cork will get a shock in 20 or 30 years when Limerick will overtake it in everything bar population.

Proper development? You do realise they made a serious b*lls of development in Limerick over the last 20 years, building too many shopping centre's etc... at edge of the city causing a serious doughnut effect, ask anyone from Limerick, the city centre is badly effected. The reason Limerick 2030 was setup was due to little or no private development in the city and they had no choice really, that's according to Denis Brosnan (head of the 2030 group). I'm not trying have a go at Limerick here, they are making the best of a bad situation, i'm just stating the facts which are sorely lacking in this thread. Cork is thriving at the moment tbh with a lot private investment now happening in different areas of the city, and to suggest that Limerick is developing faster is complete waffle, its the complete opposite (by a factor of 4 i reckon).

Also Cork currently has better rail infrastructure than Limerick, lines to Midleton, Cobh etc... and a better service to Dublin. Limerick's roads are currently better but over the next few years there will big improvements in Cork roads with new projects, M20, M28, Dunkettle, Macroom etc... I do agree Limerick gets a lot more public funding per head than Cork, but Dublin suffers from this carry on also.

CHealy

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Limerick has a lot of advantages over Cork.

- Better politicians
- willingness and want for proper development
- An independent airport with proper US destinations
- Now, a better road network and less congestion
- Way more public funding
- Better existing rail infrastructure (some unused) which can be put back into use

Here in Cork, we don’t seem to give a ****. New building in the dock lands get proposed, people complain it’s too tall. M28 scheme gets launched, people complain about everything. We seem to value people painting switch boxes more than actual development. It’s crazy.

Limerick is on the way up and Cork will get a shock in 20 or 30 years when Limerick will overtake it in everything bar population.

Some amount of rubbish in this.

Have you ever been to Limerick? I question if you have because if you've been you'd realise it will never overtake Cork in anything.

One Albert Quay is the most modern office building in Ireland, recently completed.

Just across the road, Navigation Square just this weekend had the citys biggest ever concrete pour as the basement level of Cork largest office development took place.

Just across the river, planning to be submitted for a 40 story skyscraper at the Port of Cork site.

Just across the river from this, Horgans Quay planning to be given in the next couple of weeks and work to commence in early 2018.

Thats just a few things happening around the docks in the coming months with a lot more at the design phase. Open your eyes.

PS. The guys painting the switch boxes are doing a fantastic service to this city, I really enjoy their work and its alot better than the plain old dark green paint.

Meursault

This thread has gone completely off track. Who cares whats happening in Limerick.

At this stage, if we have a genuine interest in getting an event centre, we should be communicating this to Coveney, Martin, and all other politicians in the constituency.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Meursault wrote: »

This thread has gone completely off track. Who cares whats happening in Limerick.

Cause if they get the Events Center built, it won’t happen in Cork.

opus

See work has started on the student flats.

Construction work begins on former Beamish & Crawford site

fonzy951

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Cause if they get the Events Center built, it won’t happen in Cork.

Limerick Council are setting aside 3 million between now and 2020 for a conference centre in Limerick http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/282097/council-sets-aside-3m-for-conference-centre-in-limerick.html

I imagine they are looking at a centre for small business convention's etc., capacity around 1,000 - 3,000 mark. It just wouldn't be financially viable for Live Nation to run an events centre in Limerick.
Remember Live Nation made BAM increase the size of the EC in Cork to make it viable (6,500 seats). Worse case scenario, even if BAM don't decide to go ahead with EC, it will just get re-tendered, public funding of 30m would very enticing for other developers. But tbh if BAM were going to pull the plug on this, i reckon they would have done it by now and just moved on, they know they can only get another 10 million extra in funding for a while. Also they have that large 4-star hotel in planning across the road (Sullivan's Quay), an EC across the road really adds great value to that hotel.

Meursault

fonzy951 wrote: »

Limerick Council are setting aside 3 million between now and 2020 for a conference centre in Limerick http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/282097/council-sets-aside-3m-for-conference-centre-in-limerick.html

I imagine they are looking at a centre for small business convention's etc., capacity around 1,000 - 3,000 mark. It just wouldn't be financially viable for Live Nation to run an events centre in Limerick.
Remember Live Nation made BAM increase the size of the EC in Cork to make it viable (6,500 seats). Worse case scenario, even if BAM don't decide to go ahead with EC, it will just get re-tendered, public funding of 30m would very enticing for other developers. But tbh if BAM were going to pull the plug on this, i reckon they would have done it by now and just moved on, they know they can only get another 10 million extra in funding for a while. Also they have that large 4-star hotel in planning across the road (Sullivan's Quay), an EC across the road really adds great value to that hotel.

Agree. By the sounds of it, it is the govt that are dragging their heels on this at the moment. BAM have nothing to lose, in terms of public opinion, by pulling the plug on this. In fact, if they were planning on doing this, they would have done so already. One less headache. Move on to the next project, etc.

snotboogie

Evening Echo and local councillors getting unreal mileage out of this:
Warning that Limerick could overtake Cork

rebs23

snotboogie wrote: »

Evening Echo and local councillors getting unreal mileage out of this:
Warning that Limerick could overtake Cork

That article and headline must rank as the most stupid ever in the echo.

flo8s967qjh0nd

rebs23 wrote: »

That article and headline must rank as the most stupid ever in the echo.

That's a very competitive category.

Pablo Escobar

rebs23 wrote: »

snotboogie wrote: »

Evening Echo and local councillors getting unreal mileage out of this:
Warning that Limerick could overtake Cork

That article and headline must rank as the most stupid ever in the echo.

I haven't read it yet, but you've set the bar pretty high right there. The headline means it could be a winner though.

fonzy951

rebs23 wrote: »

That article and headline must rank as the most stupid ever in the echo.

It's like something from Waterford Whispers

zetalambda

The Echo is more like a comic than a newspaper these days.