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Events Centre

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    #1382
    mire
    Registered Users Posts: 490 ✭✭mire


    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    Whats nonsense is the misguided belief if something isnt viable in Cork, its not viable elsewhere. No we shouldn't be paranoid looking over our shoulders, nor should we be resting on our laurels.

    Public subsidies for CAP/OPEX, appropriate scaling, anothercity of > 200k an hour away. If Cork cant get it over the line, Limerick could be in business. Again.
    There is precedence.

    Edit:
    With another city also an hour away in the opposite direction...

    Do you think that live nation would sign up and commit to the same project if it were in limerick, with the same level of public subsidy?

    [people have this bizarre notion that if this project was somewhere else; - Docklands, limerick, it might suddenly become 'viable'. It's not the site folks, it's the numbers]


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    #1383
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    mire wrote: »
    Do you think that live nation would sign up and commit to the same project if it were in limerick, with the same level of public subsidy?

    [people have this bizarre notion that if this project was somewhere else; - Docklands, limerick, it might suddenly become 'viable'. It's not the site folks, it's the numbers]

    No idea. A robust CBA would determine what/whether anything is viable up there.

    But we've nothing on what might/mightn't work in Limerick, other than what bangs of misguided Cork exceptionalism.

    Public capital is cheap at the moment, they've a unified authority. Who knows what they could try. Could be the greatest white elephant or we could be at a concert, grumbling under our breaths like we do in Thomond, why the fcuk is this not in Cork where all the people are.


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    #1384
    j8wk2feszrnpao
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,438 ✭✭✭j8wk2feszrnpao


    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    Whats nonsense is the misguided belief if something isnt viable in Cork, its not viable elsewhere. No we shouldn't be paranoid looking over our shoulders, nor should we be resting on our laurels.

    Public subsidies for CAP/OPEX, appropriate scaling, anothercity of > 200k an hour away. If Cork cant get it over the line, Limerick could be in business. Again.
    There is precedence.

    Edit:
    With another city also an hour away in the opposite direction...
    There's people travelling all the way to Dublin for events, they'll go to Limerick as well. It's potentially a central point for the Cork/Limerick/Galway/Clare/Tipp catchment. Public subsidy, with some backing from JP, Limerick could get it built.


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    #1385
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    marno21 wrote: »
    Limerick. LOL

    Limerick has an events centre already for the size of the market there. The concert hall at the University

    Lol is right, its the same capacity as Cork Opera house....
    Only nicer.


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    #1386
    snotboogie
    Registered Users Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    As has been pointed out, Limerick got it done with Thomond Park and Cork is now the only city in the country without a professional sports team, resulting in a massive loss in revenue and a gaping hole in entertainment. Limerick are fantastic at marketing themselves, go to the rugby forum and search this topic and see post after post of Cork forumers saying they “enjoy the trip to Limerick” “it’s all part of the match day experience” “there’s more to Munster than Limerick and Cork”and even “Limerick is the real home of Munster rugby” while 9 Cork players are starting for Munster. What Limerick have done with rugby is phenomenal and I’ve no doubt they could pull the same off with an events centre if circumstances work in their favour.


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    #1387
    mire
    Registered Users Posts: 490 ✭✭mire


    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    No idea. A robust CBA would determine what/whether anything is viable up there.

    But we've nothing on what might/mightn't work in Limerick, other than what bangs of misguided Cork exceptionalism.

    Public capital is cheap at the moment, they've a unified authority. Who knows what they could try. Could be the greatest white elephant or we could be at a concert, grumbling under our breaths like we do in Thomond, why the fcuk is this not in Cork where all the people are.

    Misguided cork exceptionalism has nothing to do with my point. I'm interested in knowing why live nation would sign up to a similar project in limerick, if it's not considered viable in cork.


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    #1388
    snotboogie
    Registered Users Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    mire wrote: »
    Misguided cork exceptionalism has nothing to do with my point. I'm interested in knowing why live nation would sign up to a similar project in limerick, if it's not considered viable in cork.

    The current hold up is not over viability, it is the legality of extra govt funding to compensate for an inadequate design which led to a misleading tender. Everyone has their hands tied so as not to invalidate the tender process. Limerick Council could in theory go after completely different funding, such as with the EIB who they already have a relationship with, after learning from Corks mistakes. The M20 could increase viability in any future feasiblity study


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    #1389
    Yurt2
    Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    mire wrote: »
    Misguided cork exceptionalism has nothing to do with my point. I'm interested in knowing why live nation would sign up to a similar project in limerick, if it's not considered viable in cork.


    JP McManus is reading this thread in his slippers and smoking jacket from his Swiss Alpine retreat. He's just sent his butler Gaspard to fetch his chequebook.


    "Make payable to Limerick Cittay for 400 majillion Swiss Francs for the purpose of the Terry Wogan Megadome. Have it built by Christmas."


    And with that, the River Lee overflowed with its denizens tears.


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    #1390
    Yurt2
    Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    The M20 is a trojan horse project to bring Corkonians to Limerick's sweet rugby stadium and glistening Shannonside megadome all the quicker.


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    #1391
    j8wk2feszrnpao
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,438 ✭✭✭j8wk2feszrnpao


    Yurt! wrote: »
    The M20 is a trojan horse project to bring Corkonians to Limerick's sweet rugby stadium and glistening Shannonside megadome all the quicker.
    The M20 would be nice, but a (proper) North Ring is of greater need for Cork.


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    #1392
    rebs23
    Registered Users Posts: 572 ✭✭✭rebs23


    snotboogie wrote: »
    The current hold up is not over viability, it is the legality of extra govt funding to compensate for an inadequate design which led to a misleading tender. Everyone has their hands tied so as not to invalidate the tender process. Limerick Council could in theory go after completely different funding, such as with the EIB who they already have a relationship with, after learning from Corks mistakes. The M20 could increase viability in any future feasiblity study

    Limerick 2030 are already up to their neck in debt and ongoing losses due to Hanging Gardens office project only 50% let and no ongoing filming at Troy. They have way too much on their plate as they realize property development is not for the faint hearted.
    Concerts have traditionally been poorly supported in Limerick as well . Viability would be a major challenge in Limerick. The only viable location for an Event center is Cork due to population, catchment, variety of businesses , tourist profile etc, etc,
    God help the politicians in power if the Event Center doesn’t go ahead and it gets developed elsewhere .


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    #1393
    Yurt2
    Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    In fairness, Cork deserves a prestige project like this despite my feeble Limerick wind-up earlier. The Chicken Hut WoganDome has a nice ring to it though.

    It simply wouldn't be viable in Limerick, even with the advantage of being between Galway and Leeside. Cork is just about big enough to make it work. The only trick is big acts are likely to stick with a Dublin date as the capacity isn't big enough, so you're really shooting for mid-level acts like the recently built Leeds arena, a city quite a bit larger than Cork with a healthy hinterland to draw from.

    I do hope it gets up and running all the same.


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    #1394
    snotboogie
    Registered Users Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    rebs23 wrote: »
    Limerick 2030 are already up to their neck in debt and ongoing losses due to Hanging Gardens office project only 50% let and no ongoing filming at Troy. They have way too much on their plate as they realize property development is not for the faint hearted.
    Concerts have traditionally been poorly supported in Limerick as well . Viability would be a major challenge in Limerick. The only viable location for an Event center is Cork due to population, catchment, variety of businesses , tourist profile etc, etc,
    God help the politicians in power if the Event Center doesn’t go ahead and it gets developed elsewhere .

    Planning just went in yesterday for the mammoth Opera site in Limerick. Maybe they have tenants up their sleeve for the Hanging Gardens? Either way they seem to be ploughing ahead with Limerick 2030. I'm certainly not envious of their public funding for office schemes but I'm not sure that Limerick 2030 is dead yet.


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    #1395
    CHealy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭CHealy


    snotboogie wrote: »
    As has been pointed out, Limerick got it done with Thomond Park and Cork is now the only city in the country without a professional sports team, resulting in a massive loss in revenue and a gaping hole in entertainment.

    Cork City FC are a fully professional football team who averaged around 4500 attendance across 18 home league games last year (excluding sell-outs for European and Cup games).

    4500 is 1.5% of 300,000 ( the approx number of people within 45 mins of Turners Cross), if that % average was doubled or trebeled Cork City FC would have to build a for-purpose stadium as Turners Cross cannot hold those crowds.

    I honestly dont think Munster would get these numbers on a regular bi-weekly basis if the league setup was the same, its far easier to go to 6 or 7 big games than it is to continuously support a team week in week out like that Cork City average attendance.


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    #1396
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    mire wrote: »
    Misguided cork exceptionalism has nothing to do with my point. I'm interested in knowing why live nation would sign up to a similar project in limerick, if it's not considered viable in cork.

    LN were involved with both bids.
    Its either viable or its not. Im sure they have a fair idea whether it is or isnt at this stage. Personally i haven't seen their business model, plan or cost-benifet analysis.

    Theres more of a bang of extracting more public money about this farce; either because the original tender was knowingly wrong, but was submitted to get the contract, but with a sudden viability redesign shortly after, or its simply to offset the developers risk. Bit of both i reckon. Or its not viable, and we're in a process of withdrawal

    We have no idea what they would do in Limerick though, possibly an entirely different DBO model, with/without LN


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    #1397
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,409 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    munstermagic11 wrote: »
    The M20 would be nice, but a (proper) North Ring is of greater need for Cork.
    The North Ring is the most important for Cork, the M20 for the region as a whole. They are both absolutely critical projects though that there shouldn't be any question about. Yet there are.


    On a separate issue, I think there's little need to be scared about the M20 in regards to being a trojan horse for Limerick. Anyone who's ever spent any great amount of time in Limerick will see evidently why that is. If anything, Cork Airport will benefit as there are significantly more destinations available from Cork than Shannon. If the A321/737 MAX provides further transatlantic opportunities in Cork then there's no routes from Shannon that won't be available from Cork.


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    #1398
    j8wk2feszrnpao
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,438 ✭✭✭j8wk2feszrnpao


    CHealy wrote: »
    I honestly dont think Munster would get these numbers on a regular bi-weekly basis if the league setup was the same
    Munster's lowest attendance was 5,773; for a preseason friendly. Thomand is getting about 12-14k for home Pro12 games, and the only issue for Musgrave is that capacity is only 8k (full for each game). If anything, they'd do better with more home games and easily avg way more than 4,500.
    But it's not a like for like comparison. Munster covers the region, Cork City has a much smaller base.


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    #1399
    CHealy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭CHealy


    munstermagic11 wrote: »
    Munster's lowest attendance was 5,773; for a preseason friendly. Thomand is getting about 12-14k for home Pro12 games, and the only issue for Musgrave is that capacity is only 8k (full for each game). If anything, they'd do better with more home games and easily avg way more than 4,500.
    But it's not a like for like comparison. Munster covers the region, Cork City has a much smaller base.

    Ya thats fair enough, its only my opinion but I could be way off the mark and its really unfair to compare the two like you said.

    My original point being, Cork actually is a city that hosts a professional sports team, one who has won a League and 2 Cups in the last couple of years along with qualifing for Europe for 5 years in a row. If the average attendance went from 1.5% to 3% (of hinterland) then they would have no option but to build a 12 to 15 thousand seater stadium to cope with the growth.


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    #1400
    snotboogie
    Registered Users Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    CHealy wrote: »
    Ya thats fair enough, its only my opinion but I could be way off the mark and its really unfair to compare the two like you said.

    My original point being, Cork actually is a city that hosts a professional sports team, one who has won a League and 2 Cups in the last couple of years along with qualifing for Europe for 5 years in a row. If the average attendance went from 1.5% to 3% (of hinterland) then they would have no option but to build a 12 to 15 thousand seater stadium to cope with the growth.

    Cork City don't pay most of their players in the off season so are not really fully professional. Munster, Leinster and Ulster all average in and around 15k for Pro 14 home games, Connacht get 6k and will get far more if they get their stadium. It's not really comparable with the 4k Cork City get. My point stands that there is a gaping hole in the Cork sports market.


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    #1401
    CHealy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭CHealy


    snotboogie wrote: »
    Cork City don't pay most of their players in the off season so are not really fully professional. Munster, Leinster and Ulster all average in and around 15k for Pro 14 home games, Connacht get 6k and will get far more if they get their stadium. It's not really comparable with the 4k Cork City get. My point stands that there is a gaping hole in the Cork sports market.

    All Cork City players are paid 52 weeks of the year, as are all off-field staff. Please get your facts correct.

    Leaving budgets aside, Cork City are every bit as professional as your beloved provinces that you seem to think makes a city.


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    #1402
    snotboogie
    Registered Users Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    CHealy wrote: »
    All Cork City players are paid 52 weeks of the year, as are all off-field staff. Please get your facts correct.

    Leaving budgets aside, Cork City are every bit as professional as your beloved provinces that you seem to think makes a city.

    No need to be so terse, I'm not trying to put down Cork City. Just being realistic the LOI is a totally different beast to the Pro 14 and ERC, attendances and budgets reflect that. I thought City got rid of a good few year round contracts with the budget cuts this year. Apologies if I got it wrong.


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    #1403
    CHealy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭CHealy


    snotboogie wrote: »
    No need to be so terse, I'm not trying to put down Cork City. Just being realistic the LOI is a totally different beast to the Pro 14 and ERC, attendances and budgets reflect that. I thought City got rid of a good few year round contracts with the budget cuts this year. Apologies if I got it wrong.

    LOI is already up against it enough without having false facts stated on a public domain. Its not a personal callout, its just you have stated 1. Cork has no professional sports team >>> Incorrect, Cork City FC are fully professional, and 2. Cork City dont pay their players in the off season >>> Incorrect, 52 week contracts are paid by Cork City.

    Munster (all the provence teams actually) have branded themselves remarkably in the last 20 years at various stages, Limerick got a brilliant stadium out of it, Galway will aswell eventually but lets not forget about whats on our doorstep. As I said if even an extra 1% of the 3 hundred thousand people in Metro Cork turned up to Cork City games a new stadium would have to be built. The Pairc would be too big and Turners Cross and Musgrave would be too small.

    Its a pity a joint Munster Rugby/Cork City partnership couldnt have been formed all those years ago, we might have got a smashing 15 thousand seater stadium for all teams to use.


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    #1404
    snotboogie
    Registered Users Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    CHealy wrote: »
    LOI is already up against it enough without having false facts stated on a public domain. Its not a personal callout, its just you have stated 1. Cork has no professional sports team >>> Incorrect, Cork City FC are fully professional, and 2. Cork City dont pay their players in the off season >>> Incorrect, 52 week contracts are paid by Cork City.

    Munster (all the provence teams actually) have branded themselves remarkably in the last 20 years at various stages, Limerick got a brilliant stadium out of it, Galway will aswell eventually but lets not forget about whats on our doorstep. As I said if even an extra 1% of the 3 hundred thousand people in Metro Cork turned up to Cork City games a new stadium would have to be built. The Pairc would be too big and Turners Cross and Musgrave would be too small.

    Its a pity a joint Munster Rugby/Cork City partnership couldnt have been formed all those years ago, we might have got a smashing 15 thousand seater stadium for all teams to use.

    I agree, the best solution would be a joint stadium between Munster and CCFC that looked something like the proposal St Pats had last year. I don't see it happening though, Cork City don't own Turners Cross and are making significant budget cuts, Munster are still paying off Thomond and just put down a 4G pitch in Musgrave.

    Your other point about a League of Ireland team filling the void of a Pro 14 team is just fantasy stuff at this point. A league of Ireland club averaging even 10k a game is inconceivable now. Munster are getting 15k for Pro Rugby games and 25k for ERC games. Its a different world, unfortunately...


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    #1405
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    We could be watching munster play in Pairc ui Chaoimh next...

    https://www.balls.ie/rugby/donal-lenihan-munster-rugby-pairc-ui-chaoimh-404922


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    #1406
    snotboogie
    Registered Users Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    We could be watching munster play in Pairc ui Chaoimh next...

    https://www.balls.ie/rugby/donal-lenihan-munster-rugby-pairc-ui-chaoimh-404922

    Home semi final already agreed to be played in the Aviva.

    Were pretty off topic now :pac:


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    #1407
    CHealy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭CHealy


    snotboogie wrote: »
    I agree, the best solution would be a joint stadium between Munster and CCFC that looked something like the proposal St Pats had last year. I don't see it happening though, Cork City don't own Turners Cross and are making significant budget cuts, Munster are still paying off Thomond and just put down a 4G pitch in Musgrave.

    Your other point about a League of Ireland team filling the void of a Pro 14 team is just fantasy stuff at this point. A league of Ireland club averaging even 10k a game is inconceivable now. Munster are getting 15k for Pro Rugby games and 25k for ERC games. Its a different world, unfortunately...

    1. What significant budget cuts are these? As a member of Foras, the only cuts we were told about at the latest AGM was that in line of the less European money we would get this year as a result of not winning the league?? All fairly standard operating procedure, if you have access to information I somehow dont please do tell.

    2. No where did I say anything about a LOI club filling any "void".


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    #1408
    snotboogie
    Registered Users Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    CHealy wrote: »
    1. What significant budget cuts are these? As a member of Foras, the only cuts we were told about at the latest AGM was that in line of the less European money we would get this year as a result of not winning the league?? All fairly standard operating procedure, if you have access to information I somehow dont please do tell.

    2. No where did I say anything about a LOI club filling any "void".

    Why are you so wound up lol

    1. Cork City boss insists they can continue to compete despite €300k budget cut

    2. It's the core of this entire discussion. Cork has the lowest attendance at professional sporting events of any city in the country.


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    #1409
    CHealy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭CHealy


    snotboogie wrote: »
    Why are you so wound up lol

    1. Cork City boss insists they can continue to compete despite €300k budget cut

    2. It's the core of this entire discussion. Cork has the lowest attendance at professional sporting events of any city in the country.

    Not wound up at all, I just feel like I have to correct the misinformation you have put out today about something I am very close to, Im sure you'd be the same, example being you've corrected me on my attendance figures for Munster, no problems there.

    In 2017 we won the league and entered the Champions League Qualifying Rounds, in 2018 we did not win the league and will only enter the Europa League Qualifying Rounds. As the prize money in both competitions differ, we have set a new budget in line with what we are due to receive, alas, not spending what we dont have. Its perfectly acceptable business procedure however the media ran with the "significant budget cuts" story and its a shame it has stuck. Many a Cork club went bust because of spending what they didnt have, this BOM should be applauded for correcting the budget to make sure Cork sustains its successful professional football team.

    Is there any information from Munster Rugby about where Season Ticket/General Ticket sale locations come from? Basically, if Munster have a crowd of 15 thousand in Thomand, how many traveled from Cork?


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    #1410
    snotboogie
    Registered Users Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    CHealy wrote: »
    Not wound up at all, I just feel like I have to correct the misinformation you have put out today about something I am very close to, Im sure you'd be the same, example being you've corrected me on my attendance figures for Munster, no problems there.

    In 2017 we won the league and entered the Champions League Qualifying Rounds, in 2018 we did not win the league and will only enter the Europa League Qualifying Rounds. As the prize money in both competitions differ, we have set a new budget in line with what we are due to receive, alas, not spending what we dont have. Its perfectly acceptable business procedure however the media ran with the "significant budget cuts" story and its a shame it has stuck. Many a Cork club went bust because of spending what they didnt have, this BOM should be applauded for correcting the budget to make sure Cork sustains its successful professional football team.

    Is there any information from Munster Rugby about where Season Ticket/General Ticket sale locations come from? Basically, if Munster have a crowd of 15 thousand in Thomand, how many traveled from Cork?

    Ya I wasn’t suggesting serious financial trouble, just that they haven’t a hope of funding a new stadium.

    I really doubt that information is available


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    #1411
    the beer revolu
    Registered Users Posts: 17,005 ✭✭✭✭the beer revolu


    Isn't your little spat a tad off topic, lads?


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