NBA Regular Season 2015/16

brady23

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Can you share the links?

Also, what's your issue with Curry's ranking? I'm saying this not having seen the list, but right now he's the best player in the league. No question.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarankPGs/ranking-top-10-point-guards-ever

No doubts he's playing the best right now but its best PGs ever. I just don't think he's done enough yet to deserve that rank. I think on talent and provided he stays injury free, he stays at 4th or goes even higher but given his accomplishments to date I think 4th is too high is all

ButtersSuki

brady23 wrote: »

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarankPGs/ranking-top-10-point-guards-ever

No doubts he's playing the best right now but its best PGs ever. I just don't think he's done enough yet to deserve that rank. I think on talent and provided he stays injury free, he stays at 4th or goes even higher but given his accomplishments to date I think 4th is too high is all

Ok, a couple of things.

I have no issue with Curry at 4 right now as he has truly changed the game and position in the last 18months. He's had that big a seismic change on the way the game is being played and will be played in the future. The whole GSW system is predicated on Curry. There's not another PG in the league right now built around a team, and without Curry there's no GSW small ball system. It's that simple. And there's NO exaggeration there. He's THAT good. If he stays healthy, on current trajectory, Curry will be the greatest ever PG by the time he retires. There won't even be a debate on this. No player in history has the shot repertoire he has - traditional shooters are exactly that, just shooters; he handles the ball, drives, passes off both hands but the most impressive things for me about Curry have always been the way he creates space for himself for a shot (I've never seen anyone do it like he does) and the way he can shoot off the dribble as well as spot up. He's not a traditional PG in the NBA mould and I think that's what divides opinion on him - BUT he's a unique, game-changing and era-defining talent.

What I have an issue with is CP3 over Nash and the criteria for same. If I wasn't so tired I'd write and essay on this one.

here's q: is it because he's so young that it's an issue. Say he had a career-ending injury tomorrow or retired. Where would you rank him?

brady23

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Ok, a couple of things.

I have no issue with Curry at 4 right now as he has truly changed the game and position in the last 18months. He's had that big a seismic change on the way the game is being played and will be played in the future. The whole GSW system is predicated on Curry. There's not another PG in the league right now built around a team, and without Curry there's no GSW small ball system. It's that simple. And there's NO exaggeration there. He's THAT good. If he stays healthy, on current trajectory, Curry will be the greatest ever PG by the time he retires. There won't even be a debate on this. No player in history has the shot repertoire he has - traditional shooters are exactly that, just shooters; he handles the ball, drives, passes off both hands but the most impressive things for me about Curry have always been the way he creates space for himself for a shot (I've never seen anyone do it like he does) and the way he can shoot off the dribble as well as spot up. He's not a traditional PG in the NBA mould and I think that's what divides opinion on him - BUT he's a unique, game-changing and era-defining talent.

What I have an issue with is CP3 over Nash and the criteria for same. If I wasn't so tired I'd write and essay on this one.

here's q: is it because he's so young that it's an issue. Say he had a career-ending injury tomorrow or retired. Where would you rank him?

Yeah I think if u look at his credentials in a vacuum not his actual play then he pales in comparison tbh. I agree he's evolved the game in ways that hasn't been seen in years but I think its what u said 18 months of brilliance I don't believe can make u 4th is all.
Nash is my fav player ever he should be No1;-)

ButtersSuki

brady23 wrote: »

Yeah I think if u look at his credentials in a vacuum not his actual play then he pales in comparison tbh. I agree he's evolved the game in ways that hasn't been seen in years but I think its what u said 18 months of brilliance I don't believe can make u 4th is all.
Nash is my fav player ever he should be No1;-)

I can't get over the Nash position, esp. considering they rank Paul ahead of him. The biggest knock seems to be "he didn't win anything". What has Chris Paul won? With a better supporting cast than Nash ever had btw.

I'd also that the Suns had a real shot the year STAT and Boris Diaw got suspended 1 game for leaving the bench after Robert Horry thew a cheapshot hip at Nash. Had those 2 been available (the Suns were 2-1 up with an away win at this stage) been available they'd likely have beaten the Spurs and the rest as they say is history......

Nash was back to back MVP in the league, Paul was never higher than 3rd (I think) in the voting.



In other news, will Chicago blow it up now that Noah is likely done?

Where will Noah and Rose go? I can't see either of them attracting much by way of interest trade wise and given their injury profiles (Rose gets all the headlines here but Noah's is much worse than you'd think) there won't likely be much there.........very sad. I saw Noah play as a rookie and thought he was a very limited player but he has tonnes of heart and desire and his game has evolved immeasurably since then. he's over-delivered v. natural talent IMO.

Matt Barnes being Matt Barnes....came out with this beauty before they faced the Knicks on Saturday. In case you'd forgotten, Barnes and Fisher (Knicks head Coach have some history........google it in case you don't know the story). Anyway, the quote.....“violence is never the answer, but sometimes it is.” Genius.


And shock of shocks, Dellavadova (or however it's spelt) named dirtiest player in the league. :rolleyes:

ButtersSuki

brady23 wrote: »

Yeah I think if u look at his credentials in a vacuum not his actual play then he pales in comparison tbh. I agree he's evolved the game in ways that hasn't been seen in years but I think its what u said 18 months of brilliance I don't believe can make u 4th is all.
Nash is my fav player ever he should be No1;-)

Again, it's not just 18months though. The last 18mibths have been exceptional, but it's but like he was w dud before then. I've been harping about Curry long before he became the mega star he is now (check my posts from 4+ years ago) and his production has always been up there. The biggest problem he had in the early years was staying healthy. He was the epitome of glass ankles. At be stage it looked like he could be Brandon Roy mark II.

He's changed the position, likely forever. His stats are insane, he's on course to have one of the most productive individual seasons EVER. Think about that. But consider the degree of difficulty on some of his shots. His off the dribble shooting. His assists. His steals. His handles (something you can't measure in stats). His ability to creat space (again not measurable).

I know it's a short sample size in terms of his career but as I've said, he has changed the position and how it's viewed. He will be the pro type for the next generation and beyond of of play. That's pretty amazing in this day and age of advanced stats and defensive play and systems. I didn't think I'd see another game changer like this in my lifetime. He's that good. He won't be 4 when he finishes his career, he'll be much higher, likely 1 or tied 1 with magic in some sort of old style/new style ranking.

brady23

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Again, it's not just 18months though. The last 18mibths have been exceptional, but it's but like he was w dud before then. I've been harping about Curry long before he became the mega star he is now (check my posts from 4+ years ago) and his production has always been up there. The biggest problem he had in the early years was staying healthy. He was the epitome of glass ankles. At be stage it looked like he could be Brandon Roy mark II.

He's changed the position, likely forever. His stats are insane, he's on course to have one of the most productive individual seasons EVER. Think about that. But consider the degree of difficulty on some of his shots. His off the dribble shooting. His assists. His steals. His handles (something you can't measure in stats). His ability to creat space (again not measurable).

I know it's a short sample size in terms of his career but as I've said, he has changed the position and how it's viewed. He will be the pro type for the next generation and beyond of of play. That's pretty amazing in this day and age of advanced stats and defensive play and systems. I didn't think I'd see another game changer like this in my lifetime. He's that good. He won't be 4 when he finishes his career, he'll be much higher, likely 1 or tied 1 with magic in some sort of old style/new style ranking.

I agree with everything up to the last line. Im not saying he doesn't deserve 4th really. I'm just thinking if he retired tomorrow would he be 4th in 10 years provided no else came along is all. Given his trajectory 4th is a safe assumption.
Magic changed basketball too. I think Curry would have to win 2-3 more MVPs and titles to rival him. I think Magic has no1 locked up. I think 2 is the ceiling but who knows, he's a phenom and has turned the game on its head. You don't need to look and jump like LeBron to dominate and I think that perception going forward can only improve basketball

They're slow releasing the C and SF ranks.

No1s so far.

Timmy
MJ
Magic

I'll go with
LBJ
Kareem to round it out. Centre I think is the toughest to pick

Carcharodon

warriors v cavs now
Should be a good one

brady23

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarankSFs/ranking-top-10-small-forwards-ever

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarankCs/ranking-greatest-centers-nba-history

SF is such a strong position the players in the Top 10 is unbelievable. Not fully through the center position just yet but still fancy Kareem at no1

ButtersSuki

Boards been dead for 2 days for me so only posting now.

What a beat down the Warriors gave the Cavs on their home court. Finals will be a joke if GSW/San An are healthy.

What do you do if you're Cleveland? There's a good article on si.com that they're a great team at the wrong time. They'll coast the East, but that's their ceiling. Do you roll the dice on a trade? I think you have to. LeJon is a free agent this summer but he can't walk or he's a dead man in Cleveland.....but he has huge power. He's also part of the problem as I don't think there's a coach in the league who could control him (at least not a team that can sign him). I'm a big Love fan (he's so poorly utilised in Cleveland he looks a lot worse than his skill set, he's a much better player than he looks right now), but if I'm Cleveland I trade him as he's the only real bait they have. He's the classic example of a good player in a bad system for him. They can't and won't trade LeJon or Kyrie and they won't get anything of value for the rest of the roster.

ButtersSuki

Boards been dead for 2 days for me so only posting now.

What a beat down the Warriors gave the Cavs on their home court. Finals will be a joke if GSW/San An are healthy.

What do you do if you're Cleveland? There's a good article on si.com that they're a great team at the wrong time. They'll coast the East, but that's their ceiling. Do you roll the dice on a trade? I think you have to. LeJon is a free agent this summer but he can't walk or he's a dead man in Cleveland.....but he has huge power. He's also part of the problem as I don't think there's a coach in the league who could control him (at least not a team that can sign him). I'm a big Love fan (he's so poorly utilised in Cleveland he looks a lot worse than his skill set, he's a much better player than he looks right now), but if I'm Cleveland I trade him as he's the only real bait they have. He's the classic example of a good player in a bad system for him. They can't and won't trade LeJon or Kyrie and they won't get anything of value for the rest of the roster.

ButtersSuki

brady23 wrote: »

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarankSFs/ranking-top-10-small-forwards-ever

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarankCs/ranking-greatest-centers-nba-history

SF is such a strong position the players in the Top 10 is unbelievable. Not fully through the center position just yet but still fancy Kareem at no1

LeJon ahead of Bird????!!!!!

WT actual F.

Seriously?

ButtersSuki

ButtersSuki wrote: »

LeJon ahead of Bird????!!!!!

WT actual F.

Seriously?

And kareem and wilt ahead of Russell

brady23

I'd struggle to argue with either of them. Center was always gonna be the toughest, Top 5 is an unbelievable list.

SF was always gonna be between them 2. Bird a better shooter and an unbelievable competitor but Lebrons longevity helps him win out. Probably not gonna win another MVP but a title or 2 should be within his reach along with multiple additional all star/NBA team awards

Kareem again on his longevity. Wilt most dominant at his peak and Russell ultimate winner but can't rank Russell no1 given his personal stats. Wilt has the best argument but just Kareem done it for so long helps him win out I think

ButtersSuki

No issue with Kareem over Wilt or Russell. Aside from everything else Kaeem did, he was Finals MVP 14 years apart. Kareem is hugely underappreciated, as much because he's been so low key since he retired as anything else, and because he wasn't as flashy as some of his Lakers compatriots. if you're into sports autobiographies, read Kareem's - it's one of the best I've ever read (and I've read a lot of them across all sports).

The Bird thing is not on me being a Celtics junkie. LBJ is a superior athlete, no question; but he's a superior athlete to most superior athletes. Bird did it all and for his career rebounded and assisted at a higher level than LBJ. The rebounding in particular is impressive as he was fighting for boards with Robert Parish and Kevin McHale on his own team alone and could barely jump an inch. Bird was a better team player than LBJ, a smarter player than LBJ and for a game on the line play I'll take Bird over LBJ any day of the week. Bird had a killer instinct that I can't even see LBJ having. Bird played hard; much harder than I can imagine LBJ doing. The only way I can explain this is by assuming many of those voting didn't have the luxury of seeing Bird play, or have simply forgotten how good he is.

Even the rings argument (which is one I don't pay much attention to btw) is skewed towards Bird - and the way things are looking for LBJ it'll likely stay that way.

I don't get this at all.

ButtersSuki

In other news......

Andre Drummond broke the NBA record for most MISSED Ft's in one game, with 23.

His 36 attempts were third-most in league history, behind two 39-attempt games by Dwight Howard.

The 23 misses were more than Stephen Curry has all season (22 on 237 attempts).

brady23

ButtersSuki wrote: »

No issue with Kareem over Wilt or Russell. Aside from everything else Kaeem did, he was Finals MVP 14 years apart. Kareem is hugely underappreciated, as much because he's been so low key since he retired as anything else, and because he wasn't as flashy as some of his Lakers compatriots. if you're into sports autobiographies, read Kareem's - it's one of the best I've ever read (and I've read a lot of them across all sports).

The Bird thing is not on me being a Celtics junkie. LBJ is a superior athlete, no question; but he's a superior athlete to most superior athletes. Bird did it all and for his career rebounded and assisted at a higher level than LBJ. The rebounding in particular is impressive as he was fighting for boards with Robert Parish and Kevin McHale on his own team alone and could barely jump an inch. Bird was a better team player than LBJ, a smarter player than LBJ and for a game on the line play I'll take Bird over LBJ any day of the week. Bird had a killer instinct that I can't even see LBJ having. Bird played hard; much harder than I can imagine LBJ doing. The only way I can explain this is by assuming many of those voting didn't have the luxury of seeing Bird play, or have simply forgotten how good he is.

Even the rings argument (which is one I don't pay much attention to btw) is skewed towards Bird - and the way things are looking for LBJ it'll likely stay that way.

I don't get this at all.

Ah I dunno about the smarter thing. LBJ is known for his bball iq, Kobe, Jordan, Magic, Barkley, Shaq etc have all commented on how high LeBrons IQ is. Also he's incredibly smart with understanding his body and how to sustain his performance. He knows when to rest, knows when to takeover a game. Bird obviously didn't have the luxury of LeBron in terms of Sports medicine etc but I think smarter than LBJ is a big of an insult given which of his peers and how much they respect his IQ

ButtersSuki

brady23 wrote: »

Ah I dunno about the smarter thing. LBJ is known for his bball iq, Kobe, Jordan, Magic, Barkley, Shaq etc have all commented on how high LeBrons IQ is. Also he's incredibly smart with understanding his body and how to sustain his performance. He knows when to rest, knows when to takeover a game. Bird obviously didn't have the luxury of LeBron in terms of Sports medicine etc but I think smarter than LBJ is a big of an insult given which of his peers and how much they respect his IQ

Don't know how much you know about Bird but that's an insult to Bird, not LBJ. Bird had so little athletic ability compared to LBJ, he had to be smarter. It's not even close.

Bird, as well as being an elite individual was also the epitome of a team player. He was one of those rare guys who made his teammates look better....can you honestly say that about LBJ? They used to say the same about Magic, they will say it about Curry. I've never ever heard a serious journo say that about LBJ.

Those guys saying LBJ has a high basketball IQ were saying that in isolation and to be clear I'm not saying he's dumb, but they weren't saying "LBJ is a smarter player than Bird". Context dude!

FYI, Magic called LBJ's brick 3 when down 3 in game 6 of the 2014 Finals as the "worst shot" he had seen "at any level with the game on the line" (or words to that effect). That's not smart. LBJ Aldo has history of disappearing in big games and in 4th quarters of big games. Now he does tend to bounce back in subsequent games, bite has had some shockers and some huge failures.

Bird was also a better defender than LBJ. Sure he's not going to do the flashy chase down block from behind on w guy doing a lay up, but again when push comes to shove, I know who'd I want on my team.

I can't give it to him over Bird. Just can't.

Carcharodon

I do love the sports debates about which players are better than others especially when it spans back decades, like we actually saw them play

brady23

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Don't know how much you know about Bird but that's an insult to Bird, not LBJ. Bird had so little athletic ability compared to LBJ, he had to be smarter. It's not even close.

Bird, as well as being an elite individual was also the epitome of a team player. He was one of those rare guys who made his teammates look better....can you honestly say that about LBJ? They used to say the same about Magic, they will say it about Curry. I've never ever heard a serious journo say that about LBJ.

Those guys saying LBJ has a high basketball IQ were saying that in isolation and to be clear I'm not saying he's dumb, but they weren't saying "LBJ is a smarter player than Bird". Context dude!

FYI, Magic called LBJ's brick 3 when down 3 in game 6 of the 2014 Finals as the "worst shot" he had seen "at any level with the game on the line" (or words to that effect). That's not smart. LBJ Aldo has history of disappearing in big games and in 4th quarters of big games. Now he does tend to bounce back in subsequent games, bite has had some shockers and some huge failures.

Bird was also a better defender than LBJ. Sure he's not going to do the flashy chase down block from behind on w guy doing a lay up, but again when push comes to shove, I know who'd I want on my team.

I can't give it to him over Bird. Just can't.

LBJ made the Point Forward position in bball essentially. That's why he's compared to Magic and Oscar over Bird. The guys vision is phenomenal. He's been the poster boy of a generation, he's taken over the mantle from Jordan. That's not comparing etc but Jordan took it from Magic/Bird and LeBron took over from Jordan and to a lesser extent Kobe. He defined a generation, Bird didn't, he obviously had a fierce rival in Magic but LBJ is a phenom.

Well I disagree about the journalist thing cos lots of guys have said it Zach Lowe, Bill Simmons, Kevin Pelton and I named the players who said it. I'm not saying Bird is not as smart as LBJ or not even saying he's not smarter but it's not a facet of the game that distinguishes them as significantly as say LBJs athleticism or Birds willingness to put it all on the line.
I'm just saying that you saying a separating factor between both guys is Basketball IQ/Intelligence isn't fair.

People look at players careers with Rose tinted glasses and focus on their achievements which is only natural. LBJ is still trying to accomplish more. I just think, if you look back on their career in 10 years after LBJs career is over, I think people will say LBJ was better.

NufcNavan

Hard to take them lists too seriously. It's also hard to consider Tim Duncan as a PF when he has been a 'C' for most of his career.

Tim Duncan only played PF at the start of his career because of David Robinson.

He never played a minute of PF again until Splitter came around in 2010, and even then, Splitter has always been a roughly 20 mpg player.

Whenever Duncan played alongside Boris Diaw, Fabricio Oberto or Robert Horry, there was no question he was playing center.

t's to make ESPN and other pundits talk about him as the greatest PF all time.

Duncan wants to be known as a PF because, if you list him as a PF, you can call him the greatest PF of all time.

List him as a C and, well, now he has some competition. Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Hakeem, etc....

The reality is that he's played center now for the better part of the last 13 years. Him not wanting to be called a center is the same thing as KG not wanting to be listed as a 7 footer. You can't tell me he wasn't playing C all those years when the other big playing next to him was Robert Horry or Fabricio Oberto.

brady23

brady23 wrote: »

LBJ made the Point Forward position in bball essentially. except bird was also a point forwardThat's why he's compared to Magic and Oscar over Birdsee above. The guys vision is phenomenal.bird is widely regarded as the best distributing big man in history He's been the poster boy of a generation, he's taken over the mantle from Jordan. That's not comparing etc but Jordan took it from Magic/Bird and LeBron took over from Jordan and to a lesser extent Kobe. He defined a generation, Bird didn't, he obviously had a fierce rival in Magic but LBJ is a phenom.
are you arguing lebron should be higher because he had no rival? because if magic was playing lebron would sure as hell have a rival bird played at the same time as some of the all time greats and still won mvps and titles
Well I disagree about the journalist thing cos lots of guys have said it Zach Lowe, Bill Simmons, Kevin Pelton and I named the players who said it. I'm not saying Bird is not as smart as LBJ or not even saying he's not smarter but it's not a facet of the game that distinguishes them as significantly as say LBJs athleticism or Birds willingness to put it all on the line.
I'm just saying that you saying a separating factor between both guys is Basketball IQ/Intelligence isn't fair. i disagree lebron i do think is a very intelligent player but i dont think he's at an all time level and again bird has been called one of the most intelligent in history

People look at players careers with Rose tinted glasses and focus on their achievements which is only natural. LBJ is still trying to accomplish more. I just think, if you look back on their career in 10 years after LBJs career is over, I think people will say LBJ was better.

hard to say with this last bit but lebron has already played more seasons than bird in an easier era and while he's had a great career i dont think its even a discussion really at this stage

NufcNavan

NufcNavan wrote: »

Hard to take them lists too seriously. It's also hard to consider Tim Duncan as a PF when he has been a 'C' for most of his career.

Tim Duncan only played PF at the start of his career because of David Robinson.

He never played a minute of PF again until Splitter came around in 2010, and even then, Splitter has always been a roughly 20 mpg player.

Whenever Duncan played alongside Boris Diaw, Fabricio Oberto or Robert Horry, there was no question he was playing center.

t's to make ESPN and other pundits talk about him as the greatest PF all time.

Duncan wants to be known as a PF because, if you list him as a PF, you can call him the greatest PF of all time.

List him as a C and, well, now he has some competition. Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Hakeem, etc....

The reality is that he's played center now for the better part of the last 13 years. Him not wanting to be called a center is the same thing as KG not wanting to be listed as a 7 footer. You can't tell me he wasn't playing C all those years when the other big playing next to him was Robert Horry or Fabricio Oberto.

out of curiosity where would you put him all time as a centre

NufcNavan

Valentina Raspy Tummy wrote: »

out of curiosity where would you put him all time as a centre

Again it's tough due to comparing bigs in different eras. I would probably rank Tim below KAJ, Hakeem and Shaq but above Russell and Wilt.

brady23

Valentina Raspy Tummy wrote: »

hard to say with this last bit but lebron has already played more seasons than bird in an easier era and while he's had a great career i dont think its even a discussion really at this stage

I think along with many pundits that LBJ truly defined the role of Point Forward. Not saying Bird didn't play there too.

Also Bird might be a great passing big man but LBJ is a great passer as a PG that's the level. Not saying Bird isn't but neither are passing Big men like you say.

LBJ is exceptionally intelligent and like I said I never said Bird wasn't smarter I just said separating them based on that ability isn't correct. There are far more glaring attributes that define and separate them. Some might say its the similarities and which players are better in those categories should separate but I think the difference between them is miniscule.

Also I have no clue what that ****e about the Magic stuff you're even getting at. All I said was LBJ defined a generation by himself the way Jordan did.

Also LOL that LBJ hasn't had rivals ffs

brady23

brady23 wrote: »

I think along with many pundits that LBJ truly defined the role of Point Forward. Not saying Bird didn't play there too.
i disagree i think bird was playing the same position
Also Bird might be a great passing big man but LBJ is a great passer as a PG that's the level. Not saying Bird isn't but neither are passing Big men like you say.
we can disagree here but i think bird was the superior distributer
LBJ is exceptionally intelligent and like I said I never said Bird wasn't smarter I just said separating them based on that ability isn't correct. There are far more glaring attributes that define and separate them. Some might say its the similarities and which players are better in those categories should separate but I think the difference between them is miniscule.
i disagree to be honest and many of the pundits you mentioned have called some of the things lebron has done boneheaded iv never heard anyone ever say bird made a really bad choice in a game
Also I have no clue what that ****e about the Magic stuff you're even getting at. All I said was LBJ defined a generation by himself the way Jordan did.
maby i picked you up wrong so but if your talking about legacy magic/bird saved the nba and they defined that generation
Also LOL that LBJ hasn't had rivals ffs

he had kobe for a small bit and who after that? howard? melo? you'd hardly count wade since he went to play with wade? durant? maby duncan but i dont know anyone who has called them rivals

the guys bird went against are insane its a list that includes the greatest point guard of all time and the greatest player of all time.

brady23

Valentina Raspy Tummy wrote: »

he had kobe for a small bit and who after that? howard? melo? you'd hardly count wade since he went to play with wade? durant? maby duncan but i dont know anyone who has called them rivals

the guys bird went against are insane its a list that includes the greatest point guard of all time and the greatest player of all time.

You mentioned Larry Birds teammates, arguably a better team so more opportunity to facilitate but still LeBron has if only slightly more assists in his career and lifetime in regular season and playoffs.
Also if you reread the first paragraph I said Bird may have played the same position but LBJ defined it.
Every player makes mistakes but they still applaud him. He's made mistakes but he's also dragged his teams to where they are. They had no right to win 2 games in the finals but he won them.
Just because LBJ hasn't had one specific rival doesn't mean he hasn't had some quality rivals. I think its a testament to him that he's been there for so long no matter who met him. He's made at least the conference finals since 2006-07. In every team in every place he's played he's carried teams and been phenomenal. He's always the best player. Like he was genuinely considered as MVP of finals last year. That hasn't been done since its inception by Jerry West.
I'm not doubting Bird as a great but Bird couldn't dominate this league the way LBJ could of in his.
.

ButtersSuki

brady23 wrote: »

You mentioned Larry Birds teammates, arguably a better team so more opportunity to facilitate but still LeBron has if only slightly more assists in his career and lifetime in regular season and playoffs.
Also if you reread the first paragraph I said Bird may have played the same position but LBJ defined it.
Every player makes mistakes but they still applaud him. He's made mistakes but he's also dragged his teams to where they are. They had no right to win 2 games in the finals but he won them.
Just because LBJ hasn't had one specific rival doesn't mean he hasn't had some quality rivals. I think its a testament to him that he's been there for so long no matter who met him. He's made at least the conference finals since 2006-07. In every team in every place he's played he's carried teams and been phenomenal. He's always the best player. Like he was genuinely considered as MVP of finals last year. That hasn't been done since its inception by Jerry West.
I'm not doubting Bird as a great but Bird couldn't dominate this league the way LBJ could of in his.
Please don't argue that it's a different time etc etc. Kareem, Magic, Jordan and Wilt could all dominate this league too. They can transcend their eras. I think LBJ is the same but Bird isn't.

You actually have to be trolling or a LBJ fan boy to come out with the stuff you're coming out with there. I actually can't take anything you're saying seriously after some of the nonsense you've written there.

If you want to talk about guys dominating in the league I'll tell you one thing for certain, LBJ would not have been dominating in the 80s because he'd be too busy crying'. The league was TOUGH then, seriously tough.

I've been watching pro basketball since 1984. I have studied the game forensically for years. Your reasons for LBJ being better than Bird are arbitrary at best, and show a huge lack of understanding of what the game is really like, how i was and how it has evolved.

Considered as MVP of the Finals isn't the same as winning it. You're talking of them winning 2 games, GSW had stage fright and understandably so - none of their players had been to that stage before. When they figured things out it wasn't even close.

How much of Bird have you seen? Seriously? Not a dig (I promise) but are you too young to have seen him in his prime?

brady23

brady23 wrote: »

You mentioned Larry Birds teammates, arguably a better team so more opportunity to facilitate but still LeBron has if only slightly more assists in his career and lifetime in regular season and playoffs.
watch a game though i think bird was the better distributer we can disagree but i dont think a stats tell the whole story chris paul is a great player but i dont think he is the 3rd greatest distributer of all time nor do i think deron williams is the 11th greatest ever
Also if you reread the first paragraph I said Bird may have played the same position but LBJ defined it.
and i disagree i dont see what he has done better at the position so i dont see how he could define it
Every player makes mistakes but they still applaud him. He's made mistakes but he's also dragged his teams to where they are. They had no right to win 2 games in the finals but he won them.
you are talking about him winning games .....as opposed to larry bird

Just because LBJ hasn't had one specific rival doesn't mean he hasn't had some quality rivals.i agree he has had some good rivals but none (outside of kobe for the start) are a patch on what bird had its not eve comparable

I think its a testament to him that he's been there for so long no matter who met him. He's made at least the conference finals since 2006-07. In every team in every place he's played he's carried teams and been phenomenal. He's always the best player. Like he was genuinely considered as MVP of finals last year. That hasn't been done since its inception by Jerry West. hes spend most of his career in as weak a conference as there has been the east has been an absolute joke I'm not saying he has not carried teams because i think that first cavs finals team is the worst finals team possibly ever but the one rival he had in the east was the kg/pierce/allen celtics and he didn't beat until he went to wade he didn't have all that much to play before hand (having said that young lebron was an absolute monster i think young lebron was nearly better than current lebron)
I'm not doubting Bird as a great but Bird couldn't dominate this league the way LBJ could of in his.
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but bird did dominate the league the celtics finished first in the east 8 of his first 9 seasons. he was not athletic by any means but he was very dominant and imagine what he could do in this era where players are told to fire 3s at will :eek:

brady23

Espn analysts agree, raw stats agree and advanced metrics agree.
LBJ is superior and saying a player of LBJs athleticism wouldn't dominate in the 80s is laughable. The crying this is just a stupid comment and reduces your arguments credibility. Like all my arguments here, I have stats or analysts opinions to back it up.
You pretty much nailed it, you've been watching the game since 84 you're blinded by nostalgia. I would assume Buttersuki and Valentina Raspy Tummy are older than me.
I think LBJ is better, my age is irrelevant, I don't think Shaq is better than Bill Russell.

Just to add Buttersuki, you mentioned you studied the game forensically?? Can you elaborate?? That seems unlikely given your willingness to often dismiss statistics.

ButtersSuki

ButtersSuki wrote: »

If you want to talk about guys dominating in the league I'll tell you one thing for certain, LBJ would not have been dominating in the 80s because he'd be too busy crying'. The league was TOUGH then, seriously tough.

i actually disagree with this lebron would have been good in the 80s think a more skilled karl malone