Should we let old cultures and langauges die out?

Iwasfrozen

Dughorm wrote: »

I imagine these Irish speaking kids (if indeed they do exist ) just say "Sheol mé Tweet" or something to that effect. It's not like other languages don't use loan words all the time.

What's depressing is that Fórás na Gaeilge has nothing better to be doing it appears...

Exactly and making a translation for tweet isn't going to stop them using tweet in Irish.

We need to cut back the fat big time in foras. Why do they even need an office in the city centre?

Sh1tbag OToole

Dughorm wrote: »

I imagine these Irish speaking kids (if indeed they do exist ) just say "Sheol mé Tweet" or something to that effect. It's not like other languages don't use loan words all the time.

What's depressing is that Foras na Gaeilge has nothing better to be doing it appears...

Would they not change the spelling to Twít or anything?

Caoimhgh1n

Sh1tbag OToole wrote: »

Would they not change the spelling to Twít or anything?

I don't see what's wrong with it. It's like carr and car, we need more variety.

Iwasfrozen

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

I don't see what's wrong with it. It's like carr and car, we need more variety.

Don't you think for slang to have any meaning it needs to be created organically? Irish is so... artificial, made up, souless and "tvuít" is a perfect example.

New words aren't being made up organically in Irish anymore.

Dughorm

Sh1tbag OToole wrote: »

Would they not change the spelling to Twít or anything?

Ah go on sure why not?

They could call facebook "leabairaghaidh" if they wanted to as well!

What pisses me off is that the word for "message" or "text" in Irish is so offputting. Android goes "teachtaireachtaí" for it, téacs for short perhaps?

Caoimhgh1n

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Don't you think for slang to have any meaning it needs to be created organically? Irish is so... artificial, made up, souless and "tvuít" is a perfect example.

New words aren't being made up organically in Irish anymore.

I personally don't use zú and carr like words, hate them. Every language is "artificial" to some degree.

Iwasfrozen

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

I personally don't use zú and carr like words, hate them. Every language is "artificial" to some degree.

I don't agree. English for example has no top down word creation, Spanish too.

Irish has no soul. Even it's teenage slang words have to be made up by adults in suits.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Be intersting to know if other languages made up a word for "Tweet" or would just use the English word.

Caoimhgh1n

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I don't agree. English for example has no top down word creation, Spanish too.

Irish has no soul. Even it's teenage slang words have to be made up by adults in suits.

Irish has plenty of soul.

Dughorm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

New words aren't being made up organically in Irish anymore...

Irish has no soul. Even it's teenage slang words have to be made up by adults in suits.

You're making a very valid point here - sure when Irish was not on life-support the one thing you could count on was about 20 words describing the same thing across the various parts of the country! To a small extent I think it does happen, in novels or poetry you see new words being used - albeit often quasi loanwords from the English.

I was listening to a local radio station programme where some women from a gaeltacht were exchanging stories and that felt a lot more natural the way they were speaking, no "media" or "official" Irish for them and it shouldn't be like that for the rest of us either!

Iwasfrozen

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

Irish has plenty of soul.

Oh? Then why do they need adults in suits to make up teenage slang?

Shep_Dog

Dughorm wrote: »

In all their 100 years or so have they sought such a law? What makes you think they might now in the current political climate?

It's being done piecemeal as they know their Main Aim would creep people out. In the past they promoted discrimination in exams...fail Irish, fail everything and compulsory Irish for civil service jobs. They did not give up these voluntarily and they still insist on compulsory Irish lessons for English-speaking children. Then there's the OLA and the bigged up 'language rights' of people who are not native Irish speakers.

Dughorm wrote: »

Is there a reason to assume bad faith on their part?

Well then why don't they quote their own mission statement accurately instead of spinning it and making themselves sound less radical than they are?

Dughorm wrote: »

I put a strike through instead - it appears to be a positive movement promoting a cause, in this case Irish. You seem to think they treat English (and/or other languages) the way the anti-smoking lobby do cigarettes.

What part of To reinstate Irish as the common language of Ireland. don't you understand? They say as THE common language, not as a common language.

Not a hint there of sharing with English.

Iwasfrozen

Dughorm wrote: »

You're making a very valid point here - sure when Irish was not on life-support the one thing you could count on was about 20 words describing the same thing across the various parts of the country! To a small extent I think it does happen, in novels or poetry you see new words being used - albeit often quasi loanwords from the English.

I was listening to a local radio station programme where some women from a gaeltacht were exchanging stories and that felt a lot more natural the way they were speaking, no "media" or "official" Irish for them and it shouldn't be like that for the rest of us either!

It's a sign of a dying language when new words aren't being organically created.

Caoimhgh1n

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Oh? Then why do they need adults in suits to make up teenage slang?

It doesn't *need* it at all. Just because that's the way it is, doesn't mean it's needed.

Iwasfrozen

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

It doesn't *need* it at all. Just because that's the way it is, doesn't mean it's needed.

Really? Then who else will create new words?

Caoimhgh1n

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Really? Then who else will create new words?

The people who speak it.

Dughorm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Oh? Then why do they need adults in suits to make up teenage slang?

It's a sign of a dying language when new words aren't being organically created.

You'd wonder with some of the "newer" words.

To take an example: a microwave is "oigheann míchreathonnach" - I would seriously struggle with that mouthful.

First, because it is so clunky and second because it doesn't "feel" Irish- had Irish speakers of old gotten some microwaves I can imagine them being called the "oigheann-tapaidh" or "oigheann draíochta" !

I discovered lately that a chandelier is "crann solais" in Irish (literally "Tree of Light") - the suits wouldn't have come up with that one I bet :pac:

Iwasfrozen

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

The people who speak it.

But that's the thing. They aren't.

Caoimhgh1n

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

But that's the thing. They aren't.

Oh, I didn't realise some of my friends and I didn't speak Irish. Thanks for informing me.

Iwasfrozen

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

Oh, I didn't realise some of my friends and I didn't speak Irish. Thanks for informing me.

You and your friends aren't creating words. If you were for as wouldn't have to.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

German, Dutch and Danish all just refer to it as a Tweet - no new word made up for it. Still waiting on an aswere from France (whcih apparetnyl will be the be-all and end-all for some reason).

Caoimhgh1n

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You and your friends aren't creating words. If you were for as wouldn't have to.

We usually use the English. One of my friends called it tuitóir a few times.

Sh1tbag OToole

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

German, Dutch and Danish all just refer to it as a Tweet - no new word made up for it. Still waiting on an aswere from France (whcih apparetnyl will be the be-all and end-all for some reason).

Apparently the word we're supposed to be using for it is "Tvuít"


http://www.thejournal.ie/17-words-modern-ireland-in-irish-770728-Jan2013/#slide-slideshow4

Iwasfrozen

Sh1tbag OToole wrote: »

Apparently the word we're supposed to be using for it is "Tvuít"


http://www.thejournal.ie/17-words-modern-ireland-in-irish-770728-Jan2013/#slide-slideshow4

That was so last page.

4zn76tysfajdxp

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It's a sign of a dying language when new words aren't being organically created.

They are, though. If you listen to a conversation between two people from Connemara you'll hear a lot of words that didn't exist fifty odd years ago, mostly comprised of adapted loanwords from English.

But, then again, you point that out and someone will counter out that Irish has been Anglicised beyond recognition, even though loads of languages are influenced by their neighbours. Just can't win.

Caoimhgh1n

Ansley Puny Airplane wrote: »

They are, though. If you listen to a conversation between two people from Connemara you'll hear a lot of words that didn't exist fifty odd years ago, mostly comprised of adapted loanwords from English.

But, then again, you point that out and someone will counter out that Irish has been Anglicised beyond recognition, even though loads of languages are influenced by their neighbours. Just can't win.

It's far too Anglicised, but I learned all "new words", sadly, but I use páirc na hainmhithe over zú ect, when I know a better word or phrase.

Iwasfrozen

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

It's far too Anglicised, but I learned all "new words", sadly, but I use páirc na hainmhithe over zú ect, when I know a better word or phrase.

Not very practical is it? Zoo comes from Greek, why use something stupid like páirc na hainmhithe?

4zn76tysfajdxp

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

It's far too Anglicised, but I learned all "new words", sadly, but I use páirc na hainmhithe over zú ect, when I know a better word or phrase.

Honestly, to me, that's a little pretentious. A cursory glance at Wiktionary reveals that there's about ten major languages who use the same word for zoo as in English.

For me, if I heard "páirc na hainmhithe" in conversation, it would evoke images of a random park somewhere with random animals as opposed to a zoo. I don't like a language to become bastardised either but some words are simply better than others. Embrace it.

Caoimhgh1n

Park of the animals seems perfect to me, there's no Z in Irish anyway, or at least there shouldn't.

4zn76tysfajdxp

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

Park of the animals seems perfect to me, there's no Z in Irish anyway, or at least there shouldn't.

It's not just about you, though, is it? It's a language, a means of communication. Everyone knows what zú is whereas "páirc na hainmhithe" could mean a few different things. You're stifling your ability to be understood as a matter of pride. That hurts the language, in my opinion.

Caoimhgh1n

Ansley Puny Airplane wrote: »

It's not just about you, though, is it? It's a language, a means of communication. Everyone knows what zú is whereas "páirc na hainmhithe" could mean a few different things. You're stifling your ability to be understood as a matter of pride. That hurts the language, in my opinion.

You're more then entitled to it.

I hope you can agree that the Z was unnecessary though, perhaps sú? Don't have the best of ideas at this time. Haha.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

You're more then entitled to it.

I hope you can agree that the Z was unnecessary though, perhaps sú? Don't have the best of ideas at this time. Haha.

Is there a v in Irish? Can't remember. If not, why use one in tvuit? Shouldn't it by "tmhuit"? Or "Gi(fada)og"?

Caoimhgh1n

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Is there a v in Irish? Can't remember. If not, why use one in tvuit? Shouldn't it by "tmhuit"? Or "Gi(fada)og"?

V was introduced to accommodate foreign words, it's in things like vacsín (vaccine)

I don't know why they didn't opt for "bh" instead.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

V was introduced to accommodate foreign words, it's in things like vacsín (vaccine)

I don't know why they didn't opt for "bh" instead.

Fair enough - then why not have a z for foreign words?

Tony EH

Culture is different to language. The Picts don't speak pictish any more (or even really exist), but Northern Scotland still exists and still has culture.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Tony EH wrote: »

Culture is different to language. The Picts don't speak pictish any more (or even really exist), but Northern Scotland still exists and still has culture.

So do hippies.

Tony EH

Hippies were a movement. Not a culture.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Tony EH wrote: »

Hippies were a movement. Not a culture.

You don't "be" a culture, you "have" a culture.

Mountainsandh

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Be intersting to know if other languages made up a word for "Tweet" or would just use the English word.

The French use both "tweet" and "twitt".
They even conjugate it the French way. http://leconjugueur.lefigaro.fr/conjugaison/verbe/twitter.html (it's hilarious)

The French Academy's official dictionary is very slow to make, and they haven't reached the letter T yet, so we won't know what "official" form they would recommend.

But the article below says that Tweet has been trademarked, and that could be a bit troublesome, so the Academie might go with the other spelling.

http://www.csa.fr/Etudes-et-publications/Les-dossiers-d-actualite/Langue-francaise-Tweet-ou-twitt-tweeter-ou-twitter-twitteur-et-twitteuse-quels-mots-employer

Tony EH

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

You don't "be" a culture, you "have" a culture.

Agreed. But Hippies didn't have either.

Iwasfrozen

Mountainsandh wrote: »

The French use both "tweet" and "twitt".
They even conjugate it the French way.

The French Academy's official dictionary is very slow to make, and they haven't reached the letter T yet, so we won't know what "official" form they would recommend.

But the article below says that Tweet has been trademarked, and that could be a bit troublesome, so the Academie might go with the other spelling.

http://www.csa.fr/Etudes-et-publications/Les-dossiers-d-actualite/Langue-francaise-Tweet-ou-twitt-tweeter-ou-twitter-twitteur-et-twitteuse-quels-mots-employer

Why would it be a problem to use a trademarked word?

Tony EH

You don't "be" a culture, you "have" a culture.

Wait...what....

That's not what you said.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Tony EH wrote: »

Agreed. But Hippies didn't have either.

Not entirely sure you understand what culture is. It's a way of life or behaviour and customs of a group of people. As such, hippies do have culture.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Tony EH wrote: »

Wait...what....

That's not what you said.

Yes it was - you replied to it twice...?

Mountainsandh

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why would it be a problem to use a trademarked word?

I don't know ! We do it all the time. How about if the word was used for advertising purposes though ? That could be a bit awkward or something ?

Would it be like say, making a verb of Nike, and then a shoe maker could decide to advertise with their brand : "When you're out niking in the hills, wear Ourshoe."

Not sure.

Tony EH

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Not entirely sure you understand what culture is. It's a way of life or behaviour and customs of a group of people. As such, hippies do have culture.

Hippies were a relatively short lived and disjointed movement in the late 60's. made up of quite disparate groups. Do they count as "culture"?

Tony EH

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Yes it was - you replied to it twice...?

Wait...You meant to say

"You don't "be" a culture, you "have" a culture."

The above is a point about Boards.ie and the strange crap that's going on with posting. not your comment.

Bad joke.

Iwasfrozen

Mountainsandh wrote: »

I don't know ! We do it all the time. How about if the word was used for advertising purposes though ? That could be a bit awkward or something ?

Would it be like say, making a verb of Nike, and then a shoe maker could decide to advertise with their brand : "When you're out niking in the hills, wear Ourshoe."

Not sure.

To google same thing is already in English dictionaries. It doesn't affect the trademark, maybe the law us different in France but I think trademark is standardized in the EU.

Mountainsandh

Sorry ! I have to rectify and clarify what I was on about, and I was wrong about the trademark thing. (I was lazy and just skimmed over the end of the article)

So here is the real story :

The web site Twitter have trademarked "tweet" as a word designating what its users are doing there.

But since the website is called Twitter with the i, the French have tended so far to adopt that spelling : twitt.

So I guess the issue that the article raises is more : should we use the spelling the creators of the site seem to prefer (tweet), or the spelling people are spontaneously using (twitt) ?

The Larousse dictionary (the big boss after the academie) has both in, and simply pings one spelling to the other for now.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Tony EH wrote: »

Hippies were a relatively short lived and disjointed movement in the late 60's. made up of quite disparate groups. Do they count as "culture"?

Again - they were/are a movement; they have/had culture.