Why a rental crisis now?

sondagefaux

L1011 wrote: »

A lot of that figure are undeclared holiday homes or derelict beyond the point of cheap inhabitation.

Maybe, hard to know unless the more detailed Census figures show a breakdown, but even 50% of 198,000 empty houses that are ready for occupation now or could be made ready at a fairly low cost in a short space of time would go some way to solving this crisis.

According to the stats, 11% of dwellings in Cork city are unoccupied. I doubt that very many of them are undeclared holiday homes. Even if half of those dwellings are ready to occupy now or at short notice, you could make a serious dent in Cork's housing shortage.

A combination of carrot and stick could work - extra taxes for owners who leave their property empty, use the revenue to give cheap loans to other owners who might not be able to afford to do work to ensure their property can be occupied.

These are suggestions that would help at the margins - too many of the unoccupied dwellings are in areas where there's low housing demand.

The only real solution is to get houses built in areas of high demand using whatever temporary carrots and sticks are necessary to get them built.

L1011

If you look at the map there is a suspiciously high empty rate all along the Wexford Coast that is not reflected in the towns nearby - its Dubliners holiday homes.

NPPR was that tax, but it also hit landlords.

sondagefaux

L1011 wrote: »

If you look at the map there is a suspiciously high empty rate all along the Wexford Coast that is not reflected in the towns nearby - its Dubliners holiday homes.

NPPR was that tax, but it also hit landlords.

That's just one area. 11% of dwellings in Cork city are unoccupied. There are very few holiday homes in Cork city - people generally don't buy holiday homes in Irish cities. A separate tax on unoccupied homes, not just all NPPRs, would encourage some landlords to rent out empty properties if it was set at a high enough level. Some will still stubbornly refuse - no problem, just take their taxes and loan them out cheaply to other potential landlords who have houses that are lying empty because they can't afford to finish them or refurbish them to a standard where they can be let out.

Like I've said a few times now, none of these measures will solve the problem but they will help to reduce it pending the construction of enough homes to satisfy demand in areas of housing shortage. Even with a combination of taxes and incentives (e.g. taxes on sites that have been granted planning permission but not yet developed, tax breaks for building houses for rent or sale in selected areas), it would still take a number of years before enough homes are built. In the meantime, while we're waiting for the required houses to be built, revenue-neutral measures that help to push down rents will have to do. Once the major imbalances are evened out, the government can stop all the punitive taxes and tax incentives.

The_Conductor

L1011 wrote: »

A lot of that figure are undeclared holiday homes or derelict beyond the point of cheap inhabitation.

I'd also query a lot of the vacancies in Dublin- and other parts- some of the census enumerators don't seem to have made much of an effort to deliver forms. I personally know over 20 people- including multiple family members- who had to ring up to get forms- and I know for a fact my Dad didn't get a form- and didn't bother ringing..........

Sad Professor

The_Conductor wrote: »

I'd also query a lot of the vacancies in Dublin- and other parts- some of the census enumerators don't seem to have made much of an effort to deliver forms. I personally know over 20 people- including multiple family members- who had to ring up to get forms- and I know for a fact my Dad didn't get a form- and didn't bother ringing..........

Just because a census form wasn't delivered doesn't mean a property was marked as vacant, though. Enumerators were generally investigating houses they weren't getting an answer at by asking neighbours and looking for tell-tale signs of vacancy.

The_Conductor

Sad Professor wrote: »

Just because a census form wasn't delivered doesn't mean a property was marked as vacant, though. Enumerators were generally investigating houses they weren't getting an answer at by asking neighbours and looking for tell-tale signs of vacancy.

I'd query how hard they tried.
I rang for my census form- when I hadn't been delivered one- and a CSO employee personally delivered me one. She also had another 30- for the whole complex (a gated community) as none had been delivered there at all. She said I was the only one who had phoned. I was quizzed on my neighbours- but not by the original enumerator- by a CSO employee. God only knows how many forms they got back from us- and we're main street in Lucan village.......

sondagefaux

sondagefaux wrote: »

.......... A separate tax on unoccupied homes, not just all NPPRs, would encourage some landlords to rent out empty properties if it was set at a high enough level.................

Taxation isn't the answer imo.

People with unoccupied homes pay property tax on them. People with 2+ houses in general are paying enough tax. Is a holiday home included in your plan.

Speedwell

There are hundreds of empty homes and apartments in central Sligo where I live... that's just the ones I can see from the road.

I know it's more important to get people housed than anything else... but there are just no jobs for them to do out here once they're housed. I'm lucky to be able to work remotely for a company based in the UK, but not everyone's a computer jockey.

Sad Professor

The_Conductor wrote: »

I'd query how hard they tried.
I rang for my census form- when I hadn't been delivered one- and a CSO employee personally delivered me one. She also had another 30- for the whole complex (a gated community) as none had been delivered there at all. She said I was the only one who had phoned. I was quizzed on my neighbours- but not by the original enumerator- by a CSO employee. God only knows how many forms they got back from us- and we're main street in Lucan village.......

The vacancy rate in Lucan was very low. I think I read 2.7 percent for Lucan-Esker.

The_Conductor

Speedwell wrote: »

There are hundreds of empty homes and apartments in central Sligo where I live... that's just the ones I can see from the road.

I know it's more important to get people housed than anything else... but there are just no jobs for them to do out here once they're housed. I'm lucky to be able to work remotely for a company based in the UK, but not everyone's a computer jockey.

Thats just it- the vast preponderance of the vacant property is not in locations where people can make a life. Its all well and good pointing at 3,200 vacant properties in rural Sligo and Leitrim- and holding them up as an example of properties we can dump those incapable of housing themselves in- but first of all- you would be trampling over other people's right to own property- and thereafter- even if you rode roughshod over people's right to own property- who wants to live in these locations- and- can they actually make a life there?

There were fewer than 900 properties vacant in Dublin city and county- and this includes properties undergoing renovations (normally between 5 and 10% of the housing stock at any given time- so its a reasonable assumption that the vast preponderance of these are uninhabitable). People want to live in the greater Dublin area (and to a lesser extent Cork, Galway, Waterford)- and increasingly so- since the previous census. This is where we need accommodation. This is also- *not* where the existing vacant accommodation is..........

The spin being put on the preliminary returns by politicians- and indeed organisations like the Peter McVerry Trust- is quite remarkable. We need residential accommodation- where people need and want to live. We do not need thousands of properties in rural Donegal/Sligo/Leitrim- to solve our housing issue- at best you might rehome a couple of hundred people in these areas- perhaps even a thousand- its a drop in the ocean.

The Local Authorities in our major metropolitan areas- need to have a boot placed firmly up their arses- and be held to firm delivery targets- esp. in the Dublin and Cork boroughs (and to a lesser extent elsewhere). If it can be made attractive to encourage people into other locales- go for it- however, at this moment in time- our homeless crisis is concentrated in our two main cities- and to a lesser extent elsewhere (the homeless from surrounding counties- tend to gravitate towards the cities- they don't hang around satellite areas).

MrDerp

The_Conductor wrote: »

Thats just it- the vast preponderance of the vacant property is not in locations where people can make a life. Its all well and good pointing at 3,200 vacant properties in rural Sligo and Leitrim- and holding them up as an example of properties we can dump those incapable of housing themselves in- but first of all- you would be trampling over other people's right to own property- and thereafter- even if you rode roughshod over people's right to own property- who wants to live in these locations- and- can they actually make a life there?

We could ameliorate the stress on the cities somewhat by hurrying up and providing better rural broadband, both as a support for SMEs in the region and as a support for workers who can telecommute partially or full time.

The_Conductor

MrDerp wrote: »

We could ameliorate the stress on the cities somewhat by hurrying up and providing better rural broadband, both as a support for SMEs in the region and as a support for workers who can telecommute partially or full time.

We could do that overnight if we really wanted to.
Keep in mind- Ireland has a share in a satellite which we currently use to provide terrestrial tv in areas that our transmitters can't penetrate. It also has satellite broadband capabilities- albeit expensively.
On top of that you have microwave terrestrial systems (I'm actually using one at the foot of Knocknashee right now- with a link to Collooney).

There are options out there- but they're not cheap- and the stated government policy is for the private sector to provide the infrastructure (which is why Eircom are so desperate to get the EU to state that they no longer have a public service obligation).

Yes- broadband would help- massively- however, its only one part of the equation- look at all those Dubliners who come hell or high water, have no intention whatsoever of ever leaving the confines of the Pale.

Speedwell

As a remote tech support worker who supports small and medium sized businesses from all over Ireland and the UK, let me be the first to state that it isn't only tech businesses, anymore, who are dependent on good Internet connections. I have a software support client, an engineering company, with 15 users who have to literally use the boss's home broadband connection to download large files. Their main IT support company is based a hundred miles away. My husband is a member of a forum where small country butchers post... when they can. To hell with "bring tech to Sligo". Just let the people f*cking work. I swear sometimes I would get on my knees and perform adult services for someone who could just make this happen already.

To bring this back to relevance, housing without full, modern Internet access is worthless, too.

Ms Doubtfire1

MrDerp wrote: »

We could ameliorate the stress on the cities somewhat by hurrying up and providing better rural broadband, both as a support for SMEs in the region and as a support for workers who can telecommute partially or full time.

I live and work in a rural area (very rural) and i'm lucky to have found a job here that pays well. But i would agree with the general consensus: My broadband is satellite, not 3 but paid for, and extremely expensive. If you're in a low bracket you can apply for the rural broadband scheme which absolutely sucks, it's worse than dial up. Generally, the jobs available in this area are not paid very well.yet, the houses offered up in sligo often enough demand rents well over the threshold - people can't afford them. As long as Ireland does not extend their *hubs* to more rural locations (lets start with the frickin' roads) nothing is going to change.everyone wants to live in the cities.

Tristram

The_Conductor wrote: »

I'd query how hard they tried.
I rang for my census form- when I hadn't been delivered one- and a CSO employee personally delivered me one. She also had another 30- for the whole complex (a gated community) as none had been delivered there at all. She said I was the only one who had phoned. I was quizzed on my neighbours- but not by the original enumerator- by a CSO employee. God only knows how many forms they got back from us- and we're main street in Lucan village.......

Similar experience here in Dublin city centre. Gated complex with no forms delivered until I called. It's a thankless task for enumerators with management companies failing to cooperate in a meaningful manner.

riclad

The local authoritys stopped building ,most council homes have been sold
apart from council apartments .
As part of finance rules in the eu the government would not be allowed
to borrow the money needed to build 30 thousand plus social housing
even if they decided to do so.
Once the boom was over it was entirely predicable there would be
a housing crisis .
Even with a free site it cost 150k to build one house .
I see no big push from any politician to solve the rental crisis .

ibstar

not sure if this has been linked before, but census results show that we have built 18,981 houses since 2011
http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cpr/censusofpopulation2016-preliminaryresults/

PS: we have 259k vacant houses!!!!!!!!!!!

The_Conductor

ibstar wrote: »

not sure if this has been linked before, but census results show that we have built 18,981 houses since 2011
http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cpr/censusofpopulation2016-preliminaryresults/

PS: we have 259k vacant houses!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok- the vacant homes thingy- is quite simply- not accurate.
Its a measure of the number of properties who were not delivered a census form- which we know annecdotally- is not accurate. The properties also tend to be holiday homes and in locations where a significant portion of the population do not want to live- there are tens of thousands in the border counties- many of which are for sale in whole apartment blocks or estates (they pop up on Allsops with frightening frequency). There were fewer than a thousand vacant properties in Dublin- which doesn't even allow for a 4% vacancy level in local authority housing stock- for properties being renovated- i.e. it is fully accounted for.......

The other thing- 18,900 odd houses built since 2011.
That is less than 5,000 per annum- which is at least 20,000 units per annum fewer than we need. Its not even a replacement level for our housing stock.

It'll be great when there is more detailed analysis available- however, it appears thus far to simply highlight how we have let decline set in here- and have no roadmap out of it.

Villa05

The numbers of empty properties in comparison to the numbers homeless in our cities is not insignificant

We have plenty of anecdotal evidence of financial institutions sitting on empty property playing the supply side of the market. This practice should be penalised severely immediately

The_Conductor

Villa05 wrote: »

The numbers of empty properties in comparison to the numbers of empty properties in our cities is not insignificant

We have plenty of anecdotal evidence of financial institutions sitting on empty property playing the supply side of the market. This practice should be penalised severely immediately

+1
If we're proposing to penalise developers for sitting on zoned landbanks- I don't see why we shouldn't do the same for financial institutions with vacant properties- big time.

If a financial institution takes over a property- they should be compelled to divest of it within a set time frame for whatever the market rate is- I'd be generous and give them 6 months- but they must take whatever the market can bear- there is no sitting on it.........

Graham

Villa05 wrote: »

This practice should be penalised severely immediately

On what basis?

Where are people getting details on financial institutions holdings?

The_Conductor

Deleted User wrote: »

Where are people getting details on financial institutions holdings?

Annual reports will have the numbers of properties- however you can't drill down into detail.

The_Conductor

The_Conductor wrote: »

Annual reports will have the numbers of properties- however you can't drill down into detail.

What kind of numbers are we expecting?

https://www.centralbank.ie/polstats/stats/mortgagearrears/Documents/2016q1_ie_mortgage_arrears_statistics.pdf

Looks like they are making an effort to divest themselves of houses...

Page 5

During the quarter 391 properties were disposed of

As a result, lenders were in possession of 1,784 PDH properties at end-March 2016.

Page 8

During Q1 2016 284 properties were disposed of.

As a result, lenders were in possession of 685 BTL properties at end-March 2016.

Pretty decent turnover rates I'd have thought? (And a low enough actual number)

stateofflux

Craicho5 wrote: »

Hi JustThe One,

I do see where you are coming from and I appreciate your point but I think it's more than fair that people are fussy about choosing a home for themselves and their families, especially children.

I do not receive rent allowance and I have been forced to move out of the city centre, not because of price, but because there is no where up to an acceptable living standard available to rent for myself, my partner and small child.

We rented 2 apartments in the city centre in 2014-2015, (approx. 1200 per month) - one was so freezing cold that we could see our breaths and the other had only 2 windows so no ventilation and black mould started to grow in the bathroom and adjoining bedrooms. I have countless friends with the same issues.

Moving outside the city is not a solution either, we now pay €1250 a month for a small 2 bed apartment in Maynooth which is so poorly sound insulated that we can hear our neighbours every move! This was our ONLY choice. The building seems to be made from cardboard (like many other properties built during the boom) so it is not ideal. I also now have a 3 hour commute each day to get into the city to work.

The single mothers you mention may have no family or support networks outside of Dublin, or even a means of transport to get into the city. People should not be forced into seclusion.

Rent allowance or no rent allowance, we should all be entitled to a safe and secure home for our families to live.

Ive had friends remark on the normality of long 2-3 hour commute times to London from surrounding areas and that Irish people need to get used to it. But i would guess that a lot of these towns / areas outside london where these people are commuting from would be fairly developed & have more in them than say rural Leitrim / Sligo etc in terms of amenties / infrastructure etc

Speedwell

stateofflux wrote: »

Ive had friends remark on the normality of long 2-3 hour commute times to London from surrounding areas and that Irish people need to get used to it. But i would guess that a lot of these towns / areas outside london where these people are commuting from would be fairly developed & have more in them than say rural Leitrim / Sligo etc in terms of amenties / infrastructure etc

I don't want to drive to Dublin from here (county Sligo), anyway. But even here, if I was to be told by my landlord tomorrow that I needed to be out so the owner could move back into the house, I couldn't just move into one of the hundreds of empty houses or apartments within a mile or two from my house. Many of them aren't finished. Many more are finished, but would need to be renovated to make them fit for habitation. Many more aren't available to rent anyway, either because they are being sold off as blocks of property, or because the owners don't want to bother being landlords.

I can look out of my home office window directly at a building that isn't finished and needs the window glass replaced every few months; it's designed as a creche but is the size of two large semi-detached houses. It has a lovely large garden. They hold auctions every now and then for it. Clearly there are no takers. If I could afford to buy the distressing hulk and finish it inside to a modest, sturdy residential standard, I would do it in a minute. It makes me sad to pass it every day.

riclad

Many apartments are empty, not being rented ,or need renovation.
Companys want to sell the whole block ,not just a few units .
There may be 1000,s of empty house,s in rural area,s .
Young people want to live in urban area,s ,citys where they can get a job.
its not profitable for builders to build house,s in most area,s .
They are building offices, or student accomodation, or some
apartments in posh area,s which they,ll sell for 200k plus.
Maybe its due to tax,s or vat, council charges ,site cost
but its alot cheaper to build in northern ireland than in eire .

Craicho5

Speedwell wrote: »

I don't want to drive to Dublin from here (county Sligo), anyway. But even here, if I was to be told by my landlord tomorrow that I needed to be out so the owner could move back into the house, I couldn't just move into one of the hundreds of empty houses or apartments within a mile or two from my house. Many of them aren't finished. Many more are finished, but would need to be renovated to make them fit for habitation. Many more aren't available to rent anyway, either because they are being sold off as blocks of property, or because the owners don't want to bother being landlords.

I can look out of my home office window directly at a building that isn't finished and needs the window glass replaced every few months; it's designed as a creche but is the size of two large semi-detached houses. It has a lovely large garden. They hold auctions every now and then for it. Clearly there are no takers. If I could afford to buy the distressing hulk and finish it inside to a modest, sturdy residential standard, I would do it in a minute. It makes me sad to pass it every day.

Totally agree! I'm from the West/Midlands and it's so sad to see unfinished houses and ghost estates taking up what used to be green fields and scenic areas - what a waste - while we struggle to find somewhere affordable to live in the East, we can buy a 3 bed for 75k in our hometown - but that leads to a 4+hours a day commute. Hard to know what to do!

sondagefaux

Rent a house in Newry, commute to work in Dublin...

Terrlock

Companies should be incentivized to setup outside of Dublin.

Dublin just can't cope with the numbers growing and there isn't much being done to make improvements to the infrastructure.

I for one would love to move out of Dublin if there were any Jobs for me down the country.