Documentary on new school

lostatsea

Just watching at a documentary on RTE on a new school in Dublin.

I'm really shocked at the sheer ineptitude of the delivery of education. Everyone is just sitting around. New educational philosophies abound about team teaching and integrated teaching.

A woman was talking about restorative justice when dealing with classroom disruption.

I can see brighter students getting really bored.

Is anyone else watching it?

fall

Pretty much sums it up for me. How they will cope when they have a 1000 students. Why do they keep talking about the innovative student council? Standard practise, no?

alan partridge aha

Wear a fu5king uniform JOB DONE

lownhard

Saw the first episode of that Hansfield College documentary. As a teacher I was unimpressed by the leadership. And only getting 70 odd into first year. A school like that would have been hoping for double that. Perhaps there isn't as big a market for educate together schools as some may have wished for.

lostatsea

Allowing first years to democratically decide on all kinds of issues is deeply unfair to them. Anarchy is breaking out among the first years. I'd love to see the place in 3 or 4 years. Nobody is in control because the entire school has been brainwashed into thinking that everybody needs to have their say.

It is just adults trying to get on with children without offending anyone. And there is no real learning going on where their brains actually hurt.

lostatsea

The children look happy. It seems like a great place to go if you want to hang out with your friends all day.

fall

It looks a bit like some of the English schools you see on to shows. Not a great reflection on our profession.

lostatsea

The deputy principal was talking to the pupils about uniform and there was mayhem.

When I look at those English school documentaries, teachers spend most of each programme negotiating with a small number of pupils to the detriment of most of the school population who would actually like to be educated.

katydid

lostatsea wrote: »

The deputy principal was talking to the pupils about uniform and there was mayhem.

When I look at those English school documentaries, teachers spend most of each programme negotiating with a small number of pupils to the detriment of most of the school population who would actually like to be educated.

What I see in those English documentaries, and what I learned from my own experience is that 90% of the disciplining is about uniforms. It's a constant, no-win battle between students doing their best to stretch the boundaries and teachers trying to hold back the tide.

lostatsea

katydid wrote: »

What I see in those English documentaries, and what I learned from my own experience is that 90% of the disciplining is about uniforms. It's a constant, no-win battle between students doing their best to stretch the boundaries and teachers trying to hold back the tide.

I've never understood why teachers are so obsessed about what students are wearing. Their so called laissez faire attitude is undermined by this obsession.

Some of the men in the staffroom were not very well dressed.

katydid

lostatsea wrote: »

I've never understood why teachers are so obsessed about what students are wearing. Their so called laissez faire attitude is undermined by this obsession.

Some of the men in the staffroom were not very well dressed.

You have to wonder how most of the world manages to get educated without wearing mandatory ties and black shoes...and crested jumpers.

SligoBrewer

You're preparing students for life and the working world and in both/all situations you need to learn to dress appropriately. If students can't understand what is appropriate, you need to bring in a uniform. Staff need to be leading by example though.

katydid

SligoBrewer wrote: »

You're preparing students for life and the working world and in both/all situations you need to learn to dress appropriately. If students can't understand what is appropriate, you need to bring in a uniform.

As I said, you have to wonder how the rest of the world manages. The Germans, for example, are very good at conforming and dressing appropriately - when they need to. But they are allowed have a childhood and youth before that kicks in.

Spread the love

Watched the two episodes with interest. As with anything setting up, there will always be a bit of chaos and teething problems but I really thought they look disorganised and I don't know what curriculum they were working off. I just don't agree with an overly democratic schooling system like that. Adults will always have more experience and knowledge, I think adults should lead with a bit of input from students. Be interesting to see how this school will pan out but I definitely won't be sending my child to an Educate Together school.

As regards the uniform issue, I think that students look smarter wearing uniforms and it's cheaper for parents. It must be hugely pressurising for parents and students alike to have to think of wearing something new everyday, particularly with teenagers who think they need to keep up with trends. Too much of unnecessary pressure I feel.

Exiled1

The biggest issue in any school re. uniform/lack is the problem of runners. THEY STINK........ I spent 35 years as a teacher and after a few days continuous wear THEY STINK. I am a casual dresser outside of school but smart casual at work because I always respected the work-place.
Mansfield is fine if you accept values can be made up and justified by anyone with a loud voice.

SligoBrewer

katydid wrote: »

As I said, you have to wonder how the rest of the world manages. The Germans, for example, are very good at conforming and dressing appropriately - when they need to. But they are allowed have a childhood and youth before that kicks in.

I think the school are trying to protect that childhood by imposing a dress code.

doolox

...not everybody wants to be a soldier, a guard, a bank official or any other conformist uniformed person and some people are free spirits with an individual way of life and worth outside of a set of clothes imposed slave like by a supposedly "superior" authority.

Back in the 70's most schools did not have a policy on uniforms and nothing happened. The world did not end. There were general guidelines on cleanliness, hair length, shoes etc.. Runners would have been considered by most to be substandard, worn only by people of low social standing etc.

Ties were not compulsory and jeans were allowed provided they were clean and uncut and not worn or "stressed" like modern jeans.

Too much emphasis is placed on conformity and uniforms in my opinion and making people "fit in" and "belong" unquestioningly to a group.

You only have to look at what happened to the country to see what that mind frame has done to us as a nation.

Louthdrog

I watched through my hands for the majority of the uniform parts.

I work in a London school where there is a strict uniform policy and it works fantastically. We intake from affluent areas as well as some areas affected by poverty and the uniform is a great way of promoting equality, a key part of what educate together are trying to achieve.

Regardless of what a students family situation or income is, everyone is dressed the same. Our most affluent students, who would most likely be in the best Hollister or Gilly Hicks clothing, are wearing the same as those students who potentially may be relying on charity help for clothing. Therefore there is no way of telling which students come from what type of background. There is very little scope for bullying based on clothing or financial circumstances.

We also avoid the ridiculous situation that the school featured here faced where they are constantly playing catch up with fashion trends and ensuring students are showing up dressed appropriately. It seemed the school were constantly having to change and amend their policy on clothing based on what students were arriving to school in. A uniform gets rid of that. Whatever the fashion trend is at the time, the uniform is constant, no need to repeatedly amend the schools policy.

I also don't buy the "uniforms stifle students creativity" argument. There are thousands of ways to encourage creativity among students in schools. In an age of increased self awareness and low self esteem with regards body image, how one looks should not be our focus when it comes to creativity and expression.

Or you know, schools could spend all parents meetings, student council meetings, staff meetings and what even seemed like lesson time discussing uniform policy, that might work too!

implausible

lostatsea wrote:

When I look at those English school documentaries, teachers spend most of each programme negotiating with a small number of pupils to the detriment of most of the school population who would actually like to be educated.

Hardly unique to England. Some of my work days feel like that!

Billy86

I went to an Educate Together primary school back when they went under 'School Project' and I think it was a major benefit to my development. Mind you, I didn't even know they had secondary schools until reading this thread.

That said, there is a whole lot of obsessing over uniforms in here.

Billy86

Spread the love wrote: »

Also, another thing I thought they contradicted themselves was having that awards ceremony at the end. On one hand, they're saying they are a democracy and everyone's voice is important but on the other hand, they're handing out awards to only the brightest and boldest. I have taught in schools where they gave out awards out to each and every pupil for their unique strengths and talents. Even if it was for the smallest reason. Much more democratic and fair I feel.

I don't know. At the same time as what you mentioned having it's merits, if they are attempting to run a 'fully democratic' type of set up in the classroom while also preparing the students for the real world when they graduate, would it not make sense then that this enforces the idea that 'life is what you make of it'?

jeni

My da:ughter goes to an educate together and at first I wasn't happy especially about the uniform, she didn't get a place in the irish school down the road, but now four years later and the educate together school is flying along really long waiting lists, and the irish school is trying everything to get pupils back, the ethos and they way they teach every child that everyone should be treated equal be they black, white, pink, wearing head scarves, Nike runners or penny's own, which I personally think in this day and age is brilliant.

evolving_doors

I think it's just way to early to judge any new school. I havn't seen the second one yet either though, but still, I'd be waiting to cast opinion until at least 12 years, it would have a totally new student population, then you'd see what type of 'ethos' is being carried through. I think that even a change in Principal in a school takes years to settle down, never mind a new Principal in a new school.

Once a lid is kept on misbehaviour and teaching carries on like in every other school then I reckon the only thing to talk about in 12 years time will be 'the school uniform' and 'calling the teachers by their first names' 'controversy'.

At the end of the day the parents want the results, same as any other parents would. It would be interesting to see how it will pan out as IIRC there are 2 other large co-ed schools a stones throw away (one is just as new as Hansfield).

My own personal preference is school uniform as it just cuts out the long drawn out chats about what pushes the boundaries and what doesn't. In the first episode they seemed to be getting overly bogged down in meetings with some type of a 'dress code', there was no mention of any discipline/anti bullying/special needs/food/drugs/internet/mobile phone/year head system/IT policies what so ever... but maybe that's all been in the editing. Actually I think a lot of what we see is heavily edited, look at the promo, they show a parent with dreadlocks 3 times.

It will be interesting to see how they deal with ceremonies, because whether you like it or not you need them. In terms of religion will there be any marking of christmas/easter/ramadan/hanakkuah. Are religious songs for a choir 'off limits', what would they be replaced with?

katydid

Louthdrog wrote: »

I watched through my hands for the majority of the uniform parts.

I work in a London school where there is a strict uniform policy and it works fantastically. We intake from affluent areas as well as some areas affected by poverty and the uniform is a great way of promoting equality, a key part of what educate together are trying to achieve.

Regardless of what a students family situation or income is, everyone is dressed the same. Our most affluent students, who would most likely be in the best Hollister or Gilly Hicks clothing, are wearing the same as those students who potentially may be relying on charity help for clothing. Therefore there is no way of telling which students come from what type of background. There is very little scope for bullying based on clothing or financial circumstances.

We also avoid the ridiculous situation that the school featured here faced where they are constantly playing catch up with fashion trends and ensuring students are showing up dressed appropriately. It seemed the school were constantly having to change and amend their policy on clothing based on what students were arriving to school in. A uniform gets rid of that. Whatever the fashion trend is at the time, the uniform is constant, no need to repeatedly amend the schools policy.

I also don't buy the "uniforms stifle students creativity" argument. There are thousands of ways to encourage creativity among students in schools. In an age of increased self awareness and low self esteem with regards body image, how one looks should not be our focus when it comes to creativity and expression.

Or you know, schools could spend all parents meetings, student council meetings, staff meetings and what even seemed like lesson time discussing uniform policy, that might work too!

I worked in London for three years, in three different schools, one in an affluent area and two in mixed areas. When there weren't rows about the colour of socks, there were rows about the Muslim girls not being allowed wear trousers, about Plymouth Brethren girls wearing headscarves. I had to pull kids out of assembly and send them home to change their shoes...

Honest to God, the time wasted debating these things and enforcing petty things like shoe colour...and the only result is that the kids resent you as a teacher, because they think that you think this stuff actually matters.

Rich and poor will out one way or another, in schoolbags, phones, make of shoes, whatever. For the kids that worry about that kind of stuff, they will find a way to display what they think in important. But you'd be surprised how many don't care.

I have taught in Germany too, where the kids are fascinated by the idea of their Irish peers having to wear a uniform. Fascinated, not in a positive way, they just find it weird. Especially the kind of uniform some girls wear - these kilts, for example.The school I taught in had excellent discipline, and not a uniform in sight; it was great not having to pull kids up on petty rules, and the kids respected the rules that are there because they understood their purpose.

katydid

doolox wrote: »

...not everybody wants to be a soldier, a guard, a bank official or any other conformist uniformed person and some people are free spirits with an individual way of life and worth outside of a set of clothes imposed slave like by a supposedly "superior" authority.

Back in the 70's most schools did not have a policy on uniforms and nothing happened. The world did not end. There were general guidelines on cleanliness, hair length, shoes etc.. Runners would have been considered by most to be substandard, worn only by people of low social standing etc.

Ties were not compulsory and jeans were allowed provided they were clean and uncut and not worn or "stressed" like modern jeans.

Too much emphasis is placed on conformity and uniforms in my opinion and making people "fit in" and "belong" unquestioningly to a group.

You only have to look at what happened to the country to see what that mind frame has done to us as a nation.

I agree in principle with what you're saying, but it's not true about the seventies. Some boys' schools had lax or non-existent uniform policies, but I reckon that almost every girls' school had a uniform.

katydid

SligoBrewer wrote: »

I think the school are trying to protect that childhood by imposing a dress code.

How is imposing a dress code on children who are growing as individuals and who want to express that individuality protecting them?
When my daughter went to primary school, there was no uniform. Some days she felt all girly and wore frilly dresses to school, other days she went in jeans and top. Some days she felt quirky and tried out unusual combinations. That was wonderful for her growth and development

She still has that quirky dress sense today in her twenties - but quite happily wears a uniform at work. Work she has CHOSEN to do.

katydid

Spread the love wrote: »

ts look smarter wearing uniforms and it's cheaper for parents. It must be hugely pressurising for parents and students alike to have to think of wearing something new everyday, particularly with teenagers who think they need to keep up with trends. Too much of unnecessary pressure I feel.

Nope, not pressuring at all. You just wear what's in the wardrobe. The same as you do on non-school days. The only pressure is on those non-uniform days at school when one is trying to outdo the other. I teach people every day ho have just left school and they don't wear a uniform. Well, not one imposed on them; basically they all wear the same - jeans or trackies, tops or hoodies, trainers. No one looks at what anyone is wearing; it's not an issue.

I'm not sure why looking smarter should be a reason to impose a uniform on young people. Sure, if they are the public face of a company or organisation they choose to belong to, but they don't choose to go to school. School is about what you learn, not how you look.

Spread the love

katydid wrote: »

Nope, not pressuring at all. You just wear what's in the wardrobe. The same as you do on non-school days. The only pressure is on those non-uniform days at school when one is trying to outdo the other. I teach people every day ho have just left school and they don't wear a uniform. Well, not one imposed on them; basically they all wear the same - jeans or trackies, tops or hoodies, trainers. No one looks at what anyone is wearing; it's not an issue.

I'm not sure why looking smarter should be a reason to impose a uniform on young people. Sure, if they are the public face of a company or organisation they choose to belong to, but they don't choose to go to school. School is about what you learn, not how you look.

My parents had 4 children going to secondary school at one stage. Money was tight and the last thing they needed to worry about was if we were going to school with a different outfit everyday. So basically 20 outfits per week! Not to mention laundry. Wearing the correct uniform is learning and it's discipline. Lots of jobs require uniforms. From what I saw on the show, a lot of the parents wanted uniforms and it said at the end that it's still an ongoing issue.

katydid

Spread the love wrote: »

My parents had 4 children going to secondary school at one stage. Money was tight and the last thing they needed to worry about was if we were going to school with a different outfit everyday. So basically 20 outfits per week! Not to mention laundry. Wearing the correct uniform is learning and it's discipline. Lots of jobs require uniforms. From what I saw on the show, a lot of the parents wanted uniforms and it said at the end that it's still an ongoing issue.

Why would you need a different outfit every day? Do they wear a different outfit every day during school holidays?

Do your children not have clothes in their wardrobes they can wear?



Lots of jobs require uniforms. Lots don't. Young people can factor that in when choosing a career. Plenty time for that. School isn't a job.

eviltwin

My youngest is in an ET and I love the no uniform policy especially for younger kids who seem to constantly get dirty. I hate the pressure of having to have everything washed in time. But that's just from a practical point of view, I can see why people like them. I also like the diversity, my son's school has a good mix of nationalities and I love seeing them in traditional dress. I don't think no uniform equals lack of discipline, very simple view of the world. I think some people just don't like the ET ethos and that's fine but it suits a lot of families and in my experience the kids are no more unruly than their peers in other schools.

Monkeysgomad

I have to say as a leaving cert student in a catholic school I found this show awful. All this new method of teaching with team building is no good. Yes it gets students to interact but at the end of the day we need to sit the exam by ourself.

From my experience in secondary school I was taught the lesson and that was that. No turning around discussing it. Which in my opinion is best.
Why waste time. Thank god I'm out of school soon because i would hate to learn the way they want teachers to teach now.

I'd also like to see that school reach the target of getting a course finished in time for exams.