Documentary on new school

katydid · 31-10-2015 10:46pm

man_no_plan wrote: »

Is that sectarian or asking what Catholics believe? Sure you learn that in JC history wher you're doing the reformation. I suppose that should be off the course in schools too?

The point is the word WE. Assuming all the readers are Roman Catholic.

katydid · 31-10-2015 10:47pm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Textbooks must be approved by the DES for use in Irish schools so it's a DES issue.

Yep, and they don't seem to see sectarian language as an issue in religious studies textbooks. Which says it all, really

evolving_doors · 31-10-2015 10:49pm

man_no_plan wrote: »

Is that sectarian or asking what Catholics believe? Sure you learn that in JC history wher you're doing the reformation. I suppose that should be off the course in schools too?

There's a bit of a subtle difference between "What do Catholics believe" and "What do we believe". The implication being that everyone reading the book is catholic... so really it is indoctrination. Rather than the 'study of religion', it's 'the study of other religions by us as catholics'.

But i don't know, I havn't read the book myself and it might be out of print now.

katydid · 31-10-2015 10:52pm

Gebgbegb wrote: »

There's a bit of a subtle difference between "What do Catholics believe" and "What do we believe". The implication being that everyone reading the book is catholic... so really it is indoctrination. Rather than the 'study of religion', it's 'the study of other religions by us as catholics'.

But i don't know, I havn't read the book myself and it might be out of print now.

Hopefully. What shocked me at the time was the attitude of the teacher. She wasn't bothered in the slightest, although there were 3 non Roman Catholics in the class, and when I suggested she devise her own material (as I, as a teacher in FE have to do) she dismissed the idea.

evolving_doors · 31-10-2015 11:03pm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Textbooks must be approved by the DES for use in Irish schools so it's a DES issue.

Well I suppose it's everyones issue if it's indoctrination pretending to be 'the study of all religions and none'. Once everyone is on board with it (kids and parents etc) then I'd say ya sure go for it. Although if you were a parent of a different faith or none you might be wondering what this 'we business' thing.

But anyway we're hanging our hat on 1 word.

katydid · 31-10-2015 11:07pm

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Well I suppose it's everyones issue if it's indoctrination pretending to be 'the study of all religions and none'. Once everyone is on board with it (kids and parents etc) then I'd say ya sure go for it. Although if you were a parent of a different faith or none you might be wondering what this 'we business' thing.

But anyway we're hanging our hat on 1 word.

One very important word. But there were more instances, I just can't remember them.

seavill · 31-10-2015 11:19pm

How long ago was this? Is the same book still used today?

katydid · 31-10-2015 11:22pm

seavill wrote: »

How long ago was this? Is the same book still used today?

About eight years ago. I don't know if it's still in use.

derb12 · 31-10-2015 11:53pm

My dd's JC religion book defined atheism as "the denial of the existence of God" - I thought that was pretty scary and I personally don't think it belongs in any type of educational text.
However, I don't see why we can't secularise the system without going all "we're so innovative", "we want to do something new in education", "calling teachers by their first names shows that we are all equal", "wearing a uniform suppresses individuality" rhetoric.

katydid · 31-10-2015 11:58pm

derb12 wrote: »

My dd's JC religion book defined atheism as "the denial of the existence of God" - I thought that was pretty scary and I personally don't think it belongs in any type of educational text.
However, I don't see why we can't secularise the system without going all "we're so innovative", "we want to do something new in education", "calling teachers by their first names shows that we are all equal", "wearing a uniform suppresses individuality" rhetoric.

You are being as judgemental as that textbook by assuming that using first names and not wearing a uniform are just "rhetoric". For some people, they are a very important facet of a certain view of education.

derb12 · 01-11-2015 12:48am

katydid wrote: »

You are being as judgemental as that textbook by assuming that using first names and not wearing a uniform are just "rhetoric". For some people, they are a very important facet of a certain view of education.

Your point being? What is the purpose of boards if not to give our opinions?
By your logic I could argue that promoters of educate together schools are being judgemental implying that my students are being damaged by calling me miss x and wearing a uniform! Let them think that. And let me disagree!

katydid · 01-11-2015 12:52am

derb12 wrote: »

Your point being? What is the purpose of boards if not to give our opinions?
By your logic I could argue that promoters of educate together schools are being judgemental implying that my students are being damaged by calling me miss x and wearing a uniform! Let them think that. And let me disagree!

My point is that you're being judgemental. The tone in which you spoke of those issues was negative and judgemental. Nothing more...

evolving_doors · 01-11-2015 1:00am

Ok folks tone it down a bit, we're obviously into circular argument positioning again. i don't think a school actively antagonises another school by adopting a different approach, so we shouldn't be affronted by something new.

MOD

RainyDay · 01-11-2015 11:01am

Billy86 wrote: »

Funny thing is I went to a Catholic school up to second class and was apparently like that there, but loved my time in the SP/ET school (Rathfarnham). I've kept loosely in touch with a few people who went there too, and I certainly wouldn't use those two words to describe them, by any stretch. I would actually say on average they are less likely to have either of those issues than those who went to standard national schools, probably in part due to the nature of the classroom.

Thanks, interesting to hear other experiences.

Billy86 wrote: »

Children crying about not wanting to go to school? No, really!?!?!?

Am I unusual in thinking that having kids in tears on a regular basis about going to school is a serious problem?

katydid · 01-11-2015 12:56pm

RainyDay wrote: »

Am I unusual in thinking that having kids in tears on a regular basis about going to school is a serious problem?

Of course it is. But not a common one. No doubt there are instances of it in connection with every school; for some reason, such as bullying, and it's up to parents and teachers to get to the bottom of it. There's no reason to think it is in any way only connected to one type of school.

lostatsea · 01-11-2015 3:38pm

My big concern watching the documentary is the unquestioning adoption of new methods of teaching to the exclusion of all others. It puts the child's needs at the centre of the universe where all rules must be negotiated and everything learnt by the child must be self discovered. It seems to be a backlash to the days where teachers delivered content in an unquestioning fashion and discipline was brutally delivered.

Group activities and self discovery should be part of an overall mix of educational delivery - they should not be the dominant method of delivery of content.

There seems to be a philosophy that is quite prevalent in educational circles that the teacher is no longer an expert in a discipline but a facilitator for learning. They should not dominate the classroom but rather hover on the edges moving quietly and discreetly amongst various groups who are chatting happily to each other as they discover for themselves the wonders of the universe.

Even within this system in this documentary, teachers could not get on with teaching their own subjects. They now had to integrate the teaching of their subject and show how it was relevant to other subjects.

I'm not dismissing these methods of education. But I think they are starting to dominate because this is the way teachers are being educated in teacher training colleges. I also believe these methods are being invoked based on the feeling that this is what modern educationalists should be doing rather than these are the most effective methods for delivering content.

I can see lots of children loving these methods as they are not being challenged from lesson to lesson and can breeze through the day chatting to their friends. I can see bright children becoming totally bored and disillusioned.

Getting the proper mix of teaching methods that produce the most effective outcomes should be the aim of all educationalists.

evolving_doors · 01-11-2015 5:03pm

lostatsea wrote: »

My big concern watching the documentary is the unquestioning adoption of new methods of teaching to the exclusion of all others. It puts the child's needs at the centre of the universe where all rules must be negotiated and everything learnt by the child must be self discovered. It seems to be a backlash to the days where teachers delivered content in an unquestioning fashion and discipline was brutally delivered.

Group activities and self discovery should be part of an overall mix of educational delivery - they should not be the dominant method of delivery of content.

There seems to be a philosophy that is quite prevalent in educational circles that the teacher is no longer an expert in a discipline but a facilitator for learning. They should not dominate the classroom but rather hover on the edges moving quietly and discreetly amongst various groups who are chatting happily to each other as they discover for themselves the wonders of the universe.

Even within this system in this documentary, teachers could not get on with teaching their own subjects. They now had to integrate the teaching of their subject and show how it was relevant to other subjects.

I'm not dismissing these methods of education. But I think they are starting to dominate because this is the way teachers are being educated in teacher training colleges. I also believe these methods are being invoked based on the feeling that this is what modern educationalists should be doing rather than these are the most effective methods for delivering content.

I can see lots of children loving these methods as they are not being challenged from lesson to lesson and can breeze through the day chatting to their friends. I can see bright children becoming totally bored and disillusioned.

Getting the proper mix of teaching methods that produce the most effective outcomes should be the aim of all educationalists.

I think though the cross curricular endeavor was timetabled for 1 class a week and culminated in a presentation. Although it did look like most of the classes were a bit of a breeze with only half the students with loose pages in front of them to take down stuff. The Irish teacher certainly had a battle of wits on his hands with the constant groans and disrespect when he gave the award at the end.

A lot of ignoring the teacher was going on too which is why they brought in someone to highlight what they were doing was just rude.

Still though, I'd reserve judgement on the whole until they hit the LC year. It must be very exciting to be the oldest in the school as first years, will it become a bit 'lord of the flies' when next/this years cohort comes in.

dambarude · 16-11-2015 2:46pm

The teachers/principal/BOM/patron body were very brave to have this documentary filmed.

I've taught in a new/developing school, and it can be absolute mayhem at times. There is no precedent for anything - decisions are constantly needed on how the school approaches one thing or another. A strong leader is very important.

It must be very difficult to balance the requirement to make a decision with having to consult widely. I can see how it could give rise to a sense of unease or restlessness within a school.

I don't think that the department gives enough recognition to how challenging it is to set up a new school. At primary level there is very little money available for stocking resources. To my knowledge, the only additional money that is there, above what any other school would get, is money for IT (whiteboard, teacher PC, 4/5 student PCs per classroom) and money for basic furniture (tables etc.). It is very hard to build up adequate stocks of equipment for the subjects, when you are starting with nothing. Many of the schools also have difficulty in having/maintaining numbers for second/third teachers. Many new primary schools start with just the principal teacher, who is left to do everything regarding enrolment, information sessions, policies, setting up the school building, IT etc. etc., as well as teaching a gang of junior infants. Of course the BOM should have a role here too, but that varies from school to school.

It will be very interesting to see how ET schools at secondary level develop. I'm not sure if the system at large (with terminal exams) is ready to lend itself to their ethos.

17-11-2015 2:37am

Gebgbegb wrote: »

'calling the teachers by their first names' 'controversy'.

My son's primary school had a first names only policy, which was applied to everyone in the school community.

Gebgbegb wrote: »

It will be interesting to see how they deal with ceremonies, because whether you like it or not you need them.

What ceremonies? If you mean religious ceremonies, there won't be any. As for other ceremonial occasions, they won't be religious. They don't need to be religious.

Gebgbegb wrote: »

In terms of religion will there be any marking of christmas/easter/ramadan/hanakkuah.

In my son's primary school, those events were noted and discussed, but they weren't celebrated as religious events.

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Are religious songs for a choir 'off limits', what would they be replaced with?

Yes, they'd be off limits. They'd be replaced with other songs.

17-11-2015 2:56am

RainyDay wrote: »

Purely anecdotal indeed, and I'm keenly aware of the limitations of anecdotal. I know some super kids that have come through ET schools. However, there does seem to be a trend towards indiscipline and self-centredness. I've also come across a few kids who are quite unhappy in ET schools, with tears and traumas many mornings of the week about going to school.

I know some super kids that have come through Catholic schools. However, there does seem to be a trend towards indiscipline and self-centredness. I've also come across a few kids who are quite unhappy in Catholic schools, with tears and traumas many mornings of the week about going to school.

If anyone else wants to type up the Protestant or Gaelscoil version of the above, please feel free. There's no danger you'd be any more or less accurate, to be fair.

katydid · 17-11-2015 1:03pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes, they'd be off limits. They'd be replaced with other songs.

I don't see why. Secular choirs sing religious songs all the time. Religious songs by the likes of Handel, Mozart etc. are part of our cultural heritage. There are religious songs and religious songs...

RainyDay · 17-11-2015 2:08pm

Deleted User wrote: »

If anyone else wants to type up the Protestant or Gaelscoil version of the above, please feel free. There's no danger you'd be any more or less accurate, to be fair.

The accuracy, like any anecdotal feedback, depends on the personal experience. My statement is an accurate reflection of my experience.

Others are of course welcome to detail their experiences.

katydid · 17-11-2015 3:42pm

RainyDay wrote: »

The accuracy, like any anecdotal feedback, depends on the personal experience. My statement is an accurate reflection of my experience.

Others are of course welcome to detail their experiences.

And your individual experience is not to be extrapolated into a general comment on ET schools, as you clearly wished it to be by the use of the words "it seems to be a trend".

evolving_doors · 17-11-2015 9:59pm

Deleted User wrote: »

My son's primary school had a first names only policy, which was applied to everyone in the school community.

Ah yeah, I was saying it was a controversy as much as school uniforms were in that school, which from my pt. of view it's a storm in a teacup. I've worked in a 1st name school to and just got on with it. (Personally I'd go with the formal though but that's just my own bias).

Deleted User wrote: »

What ceremonies? If you mean religious ceremonies, there won't be any. As for other ceremonial occasions, they won't be religious. They don't need to be religious.

No I wasn't necessarily referring to religious ceremonies. I was just wondering what format the ceremonies took place in the school. (Like what music was played!). I think ceremonies are important whether they be sacred or secular.

In my son's primary school, those events were noted and discussed, but they weren't celebrated as religious events.

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes, they'd be off limits. They'd be replaced with other songs.

Do you know if this is the Educate Together policy right across the board... i.e. no songs/music with religious undertones? Do they have to consult with a musicologist to say what's in and what's out on a case by case basis?

I suppose that would rule out U2, Coldplay and the Beatles too then!

It's kind of ironic in a way, I'd contrast that with another school in Dublin that's banned music all together for fear of offending different parts of a certain faith.
Is there much of a difference?

18-11-2015 12:43am

katydid wrote: »

I don't see why. Secular choirs sing religious songs all the time. Religious songs by the likes of Handel, Mozart etc. are part of our cultural heritage. There are religious songs and religious songs...

They are indeed part of "our cultural heritage", but they present problems for some groups, including atheists. So they tended to be avoided in my son's ET school, and I understand that's the story in most of them.

I like a good song, though, pretty much regardless of its source of inspiration. One of my all-time favourite Christmas songs happens to be a version of Adeste Fideles - which confuses the bejasus out of both my Christian and atheist friends.

18-11-2015 12:50am

RainyDay wrote: »

The accuracy, like any anecdotal feedback, depends on the personal experience. My statement is an accurate reflection of my experience.

Others are of course welcome to detail their experiences.

There are 80 Educate Together schools, and about 20,000 pupils attend them. I'm sure your statement accurately reflects your experience. But you have no basis for saying that your statement accurately reflects their experience.

18-11-2015 1:16am

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Ah yeah, I was saying it was a controversy as much as school uniforms were in that school, which from my pt. of view it's a storm in a teacup. I've worked in a 1st name school to and just got on with it. (Personally I'd go with the formal though but that's just my own bias).

I forgot to mention that this particular school didn't do uniforms, but I don't know if that's a general ET policy.

Gebgbegb wrote: »

No I wasn't necessarily referring to religious ceremonies. I was just wondering what format the ceremonies took place in the school. (Like what music was played!). I think ceremonies are important whether they be sacred or secular.

Agreed, but I think at this stage humanism has been around Ireland for so long that a fair bit of thought has gone into ceremonies that do a good job of marking occasions appropriately without the need for religious elements.

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Do you know if this is the Educate Together policy right across the board... i.e. no songs/music with religious undertones? Do they have to consult with a musicologist to say what's in and what's out on a case by case basis?

To be honest, the question about the musicologist is a good example of a question that makes perfect grammatical sense but that is thoroughly undeserving of an answer.

I'm not closely familiar with global ET policy, but when my kid attended an ET school it (and the small number of other ET schools in existence at the time) had clear policies that ruled out hymns. Would those policies have also ruled out other songs with religious meaning? I think the answer is that it depended on the song and the situation. But as an atheist, I don't recall ever hearing anything in my son's school that would have made me sit up and take notice. Mind you, I'm a poor judge of what causes offence to atheists - see my comment above about Adeste Fideles. :pac:

The position might have changed in recent years, of course. ET has a lot more schools now than it did when my son was playing in a national school yard, and perhaps with those bigger numbers might come a dilution of policies or principles.

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Is there much of a difference?

It depends; I don't know what school or what faith you meant. But from my point of view this is quite simple. ET schools were the only places that provided our atheist family with what we wanted, which was an alternative to religious faith-based education. If a school is providing such an alternative, then it has to clearly and genuinely be an alternative. That means that the school should do nothing - or as little as the Irish education system permits - to promote religious faith in general or any faith in particular. That doesn't mean disrespecting people of faith, but it does mean that religious practice and the advocating of religious faith should have no place inside the school gates.

For a Christian, a Jew or a Muslim, that very idea might seem impossible to understand. But for an atheist it makes perfect sense.

katydid · 18-11-2015 10:39am

Deleted User wrote: »

They are indeed part of "our cultural heritage", but they present problems for some groups, including atheists. So they tended to be avoided in my son's ET school, and I understand that's the story in most of them.

I like a good song, though, pretty much regardless of its source of inspiration. One of my all-time favourite Christmas songs happens to be a version of Adeste Fideles - which confuses the bejasus out of both my Christian and atheist friends.

To be truly secular, ET schools have to realise that you can't ignore the cultural heritage of religion. You're not doing students any favours by pretending that it's not part of our culture. There are ways of addressing this heritage without being seen to promote it.

19-11-2015 2:45am

katydid wrote: »

To be truly secular, ET schools have to realise that you can't ignore the cultural heritage of religion.

My son and his classmates gained an awareness of every major belief system on the planet, and some minor ones, from their ET primary school. Because ET schools tend to cater for mixed and multiple religious groups as well as people like me, they tend to be good at introducing their pupils to different religious belief systems, and doing that isn't the same as "faith formation".

Sensible atheists (there are a few of us) realise that religion and gods are not the same thing at all. While we don't buy into the notion that gods exist and made stuff, it'd be a bit irrational not to be aware that religions exist and have enormous cultural influence and significance.

katydid · 19-11-2015 10:33am

Deleted User wrote: »

My son and his classmates gained an awareness of every major belief system on the planet, and some minor ones, from their ET primary school. Because ET schools tend to cater for mixed and multiple religious groups as well as people like me, they tend to be good at introducing their pupils to different religious belief systems, and doing that isn't the same as "faith formation".

Sensible atheists (there are a few of us) realise that religion and gods are not the same thing at all. While we don't buy into the notion that gods exist and made stuff, it'd be a bit irrational not to be aware that religions exist and have enormous cultural influence and significance.

That's what I thought. That's why I'd have a problem with a knee jerk reaction of having a policy of not using religious songs. Surely it depends on context?

Documentary on new school

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