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Documentary on new school
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Deleted User wrote: »
That means that the school should do nothing - or as little as the Irish education system permits - to promote religious faith in general or any faith in particular. That doesn't mean disrespecting people of faith, but it does mean that religious practice and the advocating of religious faith should have no place inside the school gates.
For a Christian, a Jew or a Muslim, that very idea might seem impossible to understand. But for an atheist it makes perfect sense.
Why would it be impossible for a believer in religion to understand? It makes perfect sense. Religion is a private matter; as a Christian, I don't expect the state to take responsibility for passing on my beliefs to my children. That's my job, and the job of the leaders of my church community.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »It depends; I don't know what school or what faith you meant. But from my point of view this is quite simple. ET schools were the only places that provided our atheist family with what we wanted, which was an alternative to religious faith-based education. If a school is providing such an alternative, then it has to clearly and genuinely be an alternative. That means that the school should do nothing - or as little as the Irish education system permits - to promote religious faith in general or any faith in particular. That doesn't mean disrespecting people of faith, but it does mean that religious practice and the advocating of religious faith should have no place inside the school gates.
For a Christian, a Jew or a Muslim, that very idea might seem impossible to understand. But for an atheist it makes perfect sense.
I think you're a bit out of touch with members of religions if you genuinely think that they would find the idea of secular schools "impossible to understand".0 -
Why would it be impossible for a believer in religion to understand? It makes perfect sense. Religion is a private matter; as a Christian, I don't expect the state to take responsibility for passing on my beliefs to my children. That's my job, and the job of the leaders of my church community.
You need to read my post again. I didn't say it would be impossible to understand. I said it might. Not all believers have the sense to get how the world looks to a non-believer.
By the way I'm an atheist, so telling me that religion is a private matter is a case of, ahem, preaching to the converted.0 -
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Deleted User wrote: »You need to read my post again. I didn't say it would be impossible to understand. I said it might. Not all believers have the sense to get how the world looks to a non-believer.
By the way I'm an atheist, so telling me that religion is a private matter is a case of, ahem, preaching to the converted.
I'm not telling you. I'm reminding you that this understanding is not exclusive to atheists.0 -
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That's what I thought. That's why I'd have a problem with a knee jerk reaction of having a policy of not using religious songs. Surely it depends on context?
Sorry, missed this first time round.
I'd say it depends on perspective as well as context.
As far as perspective goes, a believer is unlikely to find hymns, religious songs, prayers and religious symbolism to be problematic, but a non-believer is more likely to have issues with them. One of the effects of that is that believers sometimes just can't see why a non-believer would be put out by things like religious songs or prayers. Put simply, a lot of believers seem to have the view that "this stuff doesn't bother me, so it shouldn't bother anyone else."
As regards context, a critical element is the school's mission. If the school's mission is not to proselytise or promote particular faiths, then things like hymns and symbols that promote particular faiths are likely to become a real problem once they get inside the school gates. So for example the version of Adeste Fideles that I really like is OK if it's on YouTube on my phone or my home computer, but I would not have been happy to hear it in my son's school.
With both context and perspective in mind, I suggest that if you were an atheist you would not describe a policy of not having hymns and religious songs in a school (which is part of a wider policy of not promoting particular religions) as "knee jerk".0 -
You guys can all worked up about hymns and other such things.
I was worried that an aversion to the formal teaching of religion is now going hand-to-hand to teaching in a laissez faire fashion which does nobody any favours.0 -
You guys can all worked up about hymns and other such things.
I was worried that an aversion to the formal teaching of religion is now going hand-to-hand to teaching in a laissez faire fashion which does nobody any favours.
I'd figured for a while that this thread was nowhere near answering the question you posed at the start - but that's what is likely to happen if you post a thread that touches on secularism and religion in schools. Even you are guilty of "topic mission creep" by referring to "aversion" to religion teaching and then linking that to perceived problems in teaching methods.
Someone mentioned earlier in the thread that all new schools take a while to settle down, and I'm sure that's true regardless of the school's ethos and management style.
The best of my education happened when our teachers engaged us with them, with the topic, and with each other. Conversely, the worst of my education happened when teachers went into broadcast mode and didn't bother engaging us. That was about 40 years ago, at a time when Ireland was a more conservative place than it is now. If you asked students for their opinions today, they'd probably say much the same. In that context, what you then hope for is that teachers and schools get the right balance and mix between "engaging" and "broadcasting". But that, as any professional teacher will tell you, is not as easy as it sounds because of the many different factors that impinge on schools, on teachers, on communities and on families. So when we see a school that is grappling with this stuff and maybe not getting the balance right the way we think it should be done, we should resist the temptation to take the lazy way out and have a go at the teachers, the principal, or the school's ethos.0 -
Believers and non-believers is irrelevant. A knee jerk reaction banning all hymns is as dogmatic as insisting on hymns. If a school choir want to sing the Hallelujah Chorus or Mozart's Ave Verum as part of their repetoire, why should they not just do so?Deleted User wrote: »Sorry, missed this first time round.
I'd say it depends on perspective as well as context.
As far as perspective goes, a believer is unlikely to find hymns, religious songs, prayers and religious symbolism to be problematic, but a non-believer is more likely to have issues with them. One of the effects of that is that believers sometimes just can't see why a non-believer would be put out by things like religious songs or prayers. Put simply, a lot of believers seem to have the view that "this stuff doesn't bother me, so it shouldn't bother anyone else."
As regards context, a critical element is the school's mission. If the school's mission is not to proselytise or promote particular faiths, then things like hymns and symbols that promote particular faiths are likely to become a real problem once they get inside the school gates. So for example the version of Adeste Fideles that I really like is OK if it's on YouTube on my phone or my home computer, but I would not have been happy to hear it in my son's school.
With both context and perspective in mind, I suggest that if you were an atheist you would not describe a policy of not having hymns and religious songs in a school (which is part of a wider policy of not promoting particular religions) as "knee jerk".
Do you ban religious iconography from studies of art in a secular school?
Or do you use common sense?0 -
Believers and non-believers is irrelevant.
Your perspective is a Christian one, and like many Christians you find it difficult if not impossible to understand an alternative perspective.
I don't blame you for that - the kind of psychological influences that cause people to believe in a religious faith are very powerful and intense, so not everyone can overcome them or see past them.
But while I can forgive your opinion and respect your right to your perspective, I have to point out that it is narrow-minded. For example, a Protestant using similar language to dismiss the views and concerns of Catholics would leave themselves open to accusations of sectarianism.
This side discussion is a demonstration of the issues that atheists (and people of non-Christian faiths) face when dealing with a school system that is so dominated by the major Christian denominations. Even the Christians who think they're being "right on" and "liberal" in their views of school patronage and school ethos don't really understand the point of view of people who have different beliefs.
The OP has already pointed out that this discussion is a side issue distracting from the main point about the new school and its way of doing business. Rather than continuing our monologues in parallel, maybe we should accept that we aren't going to convince each other, and let the discussion get back to the point at issue.0 -
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No, my perspective is a cultural one. Religion is part of our history and culture, and to ignore the part it plays in those elements of our society is to deny children a balanced education.Deleted User wrote: »Your perspective is a Christian one, and like many Christians you find it difficult if not impossible to understand an alternative perspective.
I don't blame you for that - the kind of psychological influences that cause people to believe in a religious faith are very powerful and intense, so not everyone can overcome them or see past them.
But while I can forgive your opinion and respect your right to your perspective, I have to point out that it is narrow-minded. For example, a Protestant using similar language to dismiss the views and concerns of Catholics would leave themselves open to accusations of sectarianism.
This side discussion is a demonstration of the issues that atheists (and people of non-Christian faiths) face when dealing with a school system that is so dominated by the major Christian denominations. Even the Christians who think they're being "right on" and "liberal" in their views of school patronage and school ethos don't really understand the point of view of people who have different beliefs.
The OP has already pointed out that this discussion is a side issue distracting from the main point about the new school and its way of doing business. Rather than continuing our monologues in parallel, maybe we should accept that we aren't going to convince each other, and let the discussion get back to the point at issue.
We can certainly agree to disagree, but you have to understand that my point is NOT from a Christian perspective. I am 100% in favour of a totally secular education system, with no religious indoctrination or practices of any kind in school time. But ignoring the part of religion as a cultural element is philistinism.0 -
No, my perspective is a cultural one.
You may think so, but I disagree. Why? Because of our different philosophical and cultural perspectives. You may not like that, but that's the way it is.you have to understand that my point is NOT from a Christian perspective...
I have to do nothing of the sort. You do not get to decide that the people who differ from you have to change their minds and arrive at whatever understanding suits you.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »You may think so, but I disagree. Why? Because of our different philosophical and cultural perspectives. You may not like that, but that's the way it is.
I have to do nothing of the sort. You do not get to decide that the people who differ from you have to change their minds and arrive at whatever understanding suits you.
Since I am arguing from a cultural and societal perspective, your claim I'm arguing from a religious one is simply WRONG. Feel free to call me a liar, but that reflects on you rather than on me.0 -
The place was so disorganised and chaotic and that was just with a small group of first years. If they keep this up it there will be some mess when the place has the 6 years
Sorry but in the real world your boss doesn't call a meeting and ask you if you want to wear a particular set of clothes or not.. you are told what the policy or rules are and you don't get to sit on the board of management unless you have earned your place there...
And all schools have student councils and parents committee etc.. Only in most schools these actually meet up unlike our friends here. In the school bending over backwards to be respectful of the students the students seemed to develop a strong sense of self importance. The students and parents seemed to have very little respect for the staff..
Most of the staff didn't seem to know what they were doing or did they seem to be happy
Educate together schools probably work best in middle class areas and also if they are kept very small.0 -
Actually a good few companies do seem to be valuing their employees' input more and more these days. And typically a lot of startups have always done as much, which is a fair comparison to a school in its first year of operation.The place was so disorganised and chaotic and that was just with a small group of first years. If they keep this up it there will be some mess when the place has the 6 years
Sorry but in the real world your boss doesn't call a meeting and ask you if you want to wear a particular set of clothes or not.. you are told what the policy or rules are and you don't get to sit on the board of management unless you have earned your place there...
The primary school one I went to whole located in Rathfarnham had a lot of kids from Rialto, Whitechurch, the Holylands area near Nutgrove when it was much rougher in the 90s, Crumlin, Phibsboro, Cabra, Jobstown, etc. That was over 15 years ago but I would reckon less than a quarter would have identified as middle class.Educate together schools probably work best in middle class areas and also if they are kept very small.0 -
The place was so disorganised and chaotic and that was just with a small group of first years. If they keep this up it there will be some mess when the place has the 6 years.
Sorry but in the real world your boss doesn't call a meeting and ask you if you want to wear a particular set of clothes or not.. you are told what the policy or rules are and you don't get to sit on the board of management unless you have earned your place there...
And all schools have student councils and parents committee etc.. Only in most schools these actually meet up unlike our friends here. In the school bending over backwards to be respectful of the students the students seemed to develop a strong sense of self importance. The students and parents seemed to have very little respect for the staff..
Most of the staff didn't seem to know what they were doing or did they seem to be happy
Educate together schools probably work best in middle class areas and also if they are kept very small.
I can see your point about the disorganisation (or the appearance of such!), although I think you could take any tricky/unresolved situation in any school and edit it in with some plucky violins to create frivolity and you would get the same effect.
In the end though, the majority of time these kids will be in classroom so I think it'll be down to the teachers when the lesson begins. I would disagree with the above point that "Most of the staff didn't seem to know what they were doing or did they seem to be happy " I think they actually seemed like a level headed bunch tbh, although what the doc. portrayed was that they all brought their own expectations from different schools to a new school with a principal who was also on a learning curve. So in a way they were looking for a lot of answers and wanted a bit of certainty. And one thing I've noticed is that teachers dislike uncertainty.
But maybe, getting back to the 'ethos' of ET, would it have been a brand new school/brand new venture if they had brought in an experienced principal who - lets face it- will go with exactly what they know from the previous school. So wouldn't this brand new venture be just a model of an old system. Maybe if they had gotten an experienced principal from a different country... but then again this is a an adventure unique to Ireland so might not be the time to go abroad.
If there is some doubt on rules/boundaries at a policy level then of course that will filter in to the classroom which will make things very hard. I think that any schools can change in 7 years too (new management, new teachers, student demographic, rumours , attractions to other schools, changes in education policy).
Would i send my own kids there? not at the moment just by going on the disrespect and disruption that seemed to be in the classes. A fair few of the students sat there with the expectation that it was the teacher's job to 'entertain' them. All 'cool' till they get to Leaving Cert.0 -
Since I am arguing from a cultural and societal perspective, your claim I'm arguing from a religious one is simply WRONG. Feel free to call me a liar, but that reflects on you rather than on me.
You're arguing from your cultural perspective, which is biased because of your Christian faith. I'm arguing from mine, which is biased because of my atheism. I'm not asking you to go along with my bias; I'm just telling you that I'm not agreeing with yours.
You're not a liar. You just don't see your own bias.0 -
But maybe, getting back to the 'ethos' of ET, would it have been a brand new school/brand new venture if they had brought in an experienced principal who - lets face it- will go with exactly what they know from the previous school. So wouldn't this brand new venture be just a model of an old system. Maybe if they had gotten an experienced principal from a different country... but then again this is a an adventure unique to Ireland so might not be the time to go abroad.
IIRC, there are a couple of new schools opening under ET patronage. It would be interesting to see how the other schools get on by comparison with Hansfield as they go through their startup phase.
By the way, I'd also say fair play to the principal and the school staff for going along with the documentary. Teachers and principals do not have an easy job, especially given the rough economic times the country has had in recent years. And in their own ways parents and teenagers don't have it easy either. So opening up a new school to the TV cameras was a pretty courageous thing to do, IMO.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »IIRC, there are a couple of new schools opening under ET patronage. It would be interesting to see how the other schools get on by comparison with Hansfield as they go through their startup phase.
By the way, I'd also say fair play to the principal and the school staff for going along with the documentary. Teachers and principals do not have an easy job, especially given the rough economic times the country has had in recent years. And in their own ways parents and teenagers don't have it easy either. So opening up a new school to the TV cameras was a pretty courageous thing to do, IMO.
Ya that's a good point, when other secondary schools open will they stick to the same idea of getting someone 'totally new' in and start the same -I would argue tortuous- 'consultation process' over dress code and discipline.Tell students/parents that they'd have a say... and then tell them 'well i'm the principal so that's that'.
I somehow doubt very much that the teachers had much of a veto on the tv crew coming into their workplace, given that everyone there was on probation. Personally I'd be against it as the music used gave it a certain slant (they may as well have used benny hill music to get their 'message' across). I'd do it but only if I had total say over what was edited in or out. We know as teachers that leaving out information is used to create different versions of events too!
I think it was criminal though that the maths teacher hadn't been paid for months/couldn't afford his rent/had to move his family back in with the parents/had to beg the principal for something to be done!! At the end of the documentary they said that he had been asked to stay on (or words to that effect), it's telling that they never mentioned the word 'made permanent'.0 -
Actually a good few companies do seem to be valuing their employees' input more and more these days. And typically a lot of startups have always done as much, which is a fair comparison to a school in its first year of operation.
The primary school one I went to whole located in Rathfarnham had a lot of kids from Rialto, Whitechurch, the Holylands area near Nutgrove when it was much rougher in the 90s, Crumlin, Phibsboro, Cabra, Jobstown, etc. That was over 15 years ago but I would reckon less than a quarter would have identified as middle class.
We live in an era of zero hours contracts... Pick you up and let you go on whim... They had about 70 first years - first years are the easiest group to work with. A school cannot be compared to a start up company. The dept of education had all the structures and courses set out. There is room for some flexibility but very little - they will all have to sit the same exams and follow the same curriculum
I don't think too many parents would be too inspired watching this
We are also constantly being told about the massive demand for et schools and the shortage of places - why then was there such a small group in first year!
Btw - can you give me some examples of these wonderful companies who allow their employees to decide on important matters about how the organisation is run? I'm waiting
i think people vote with their feet and the small numbers in an area with a population explosion - with the promise of a brand new school says it all0 -
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I can see your point about the disorganisation (or the appearance of such!), although I think you could take any tricky/unresolved situation in any school and edit it in with some plucky violins to create frivolity and you would get the same effect.
In the end though, the majority of time these kids will be in classroom so I think it'll be down to the teachers when the lesson begins. I would disagree with the above point that "Most of the staff didn't seem to know what they were doing or did they seem to be happy " I think they actually seemed like a level headed bunch tbh, although what the doc. portrayed was that they all brought their own expectations from different schools to a new school with a principal who was also on a learning curve. So in a way they were looking for a lot of answers and wanted a bit of certainty. And one thing I've noticed is that teachers dislike uncertainty.
But maybe, getting back to the 'ethos' of ET, would it have been a brand new school/brand new venture if they had brought in an experienced principal who - lets face it- will go with exactly what they know from the previous school. So wouldn't this brand new venture be just a model of an old system. Maybe if they had gotten an experienced principal from a different country... but then again this is a an adventure unique to Ireland so might not be the time to go abroad.
If there is some doubt on rules/boundaries at a policy level then of course that will filter in to the classroom which will make things very hard. I think that any schools can change in 7 years too (new management, new teachers, student demographic, rumours , attractions to other schools, changes in education policy).
Would i send my own kids there? not at the moment just by going on the disrespect and disruption that seemed to be in the classes. A fair few of the students sat there with the expectation that it was the teacher's job to 'entertain' them. All 'cool' till they get to Leaving Cert.
Yes these kids will be in classes most of the time but teachers need to be able to get on with the business of education without continuously apologising and consulting the feelings and the moods of the students.... This is creating a false environment which will never be replicated in college or work or any other aspect of their lives.0 -
The Young girl from Northern Ireland who said that Catholics and Protestants had to start school at different times because she said they used the same buses. Because the children couldn't be on the same bus at the same Time!
I live on the border and have lots of friends from Northern Ireland and was once engaged to a girl from Belfast and I have never heard anyone saying that.... I frankly think that it's one of those stories that sounds great in certain quarters but is not based on facts.
Could anyone from ni enlighten us here
And in ni ethnic background and cultural allegiance was the key driver in the conflict - Hail Mary's were never offered as a reason to plant bombs or burn nationalists out of their homes.0 -
Hold on now, you're trying to compare a school to a company but not willing to compare a new school to a new company? You know full well that they are trying to do something new with these schools, so don't go and try to claim there is "very little" room for flexibility when there is over the issue you had a specific gripe with - uniforms or no uniforms.We live in an era of zero hours contracts... Pick you up and let you go on whim... They had about 70 first years - first years are the easiest group to work with. A school cannot be compared to a start up company. The dept of education had all the structures and courses set out. There is room for some flexibility but very little - they will all have to sit the same exams and follow the same curriculum
I don't think too many parents would be too inspired watching this
We are also constantly being told about the massive demand for et schools and the shortage of places - why then was there such a small group in first year!
Btw - can you give me some examples of these wonderful companies who allow their employees to decide on important matters about how the organisation is run? I'm waiting
i think people vote with their feet and the small numbers in an area with a population explosion - with the promise of a brand new school says it all
And what's up with the "I'm waiting" comment coming in the exact same post where you posed the question? Of course you'd still be waiting, you hadn't even hit "submit reply" yet.
Anyway, here's a quick link to just some of them - http://www.worldblu.com/awardee-profiles/2015.php
But if you don't want to take my word on workplace democracy becoming more popular that's fine, maybe you might put more stock in it coming from billion dollar companies like Groupon, Hulu, HCL Technologies and John Lewis. You should Google into it, I'm pretty shocked you haven't even heard of workplace democracy before.
Actually on that note, also Google.0 -
Hold on now, you're trying to compare a school to a company but not willing to compare a new school to a new company? You know full well that they are trying to do something new with these schools, so don't go and try to claim there is "very little" room for flexibility when there is over the issue you had a specific gripe with - uniforms or no uniforms.
And what's up with the "I'm waiting" comment coming in the exact same post where you posed the question? Of course you'd still be waiting, you hadn't even hit "submit reply" yet.
Anyway, here's a quick link to just some of them - http://www.worldblu.com/awardee-profiles/2015.php
But if you don't want to take my word on workplace democracy becoming more popular that's fine, maybe you might put more stock in it coming from billion dollar companies like Groupon, Hulu, HCL Technologies and John Lewis. You should Google into it, I'm pretty shocked you haven't even heard of workplace democracy before.
Actually on that note, also Google.
I have heard and also,have some experience. Most of these companies won't allow a union - these companies often take on a cult like super structure and individuals are under excessive pressures to toe the group think line and much more is expected of you.
These companies are a tiny minority - and education is about preparing young people to head out into the real world and just not a tiny fraction of that world.
Interesting that ruairi Quinn was a big fan of et - as a teacher I can vouch that he was the most condescending and destructive force in education over the last 20 years.
It s so easy to start up a new school with 70 students - these people seems to be making an absolute mess of it as they often had to ignore common sense and bow to some abstract ideals which were shown not to work very well
I wonder how many of the teachers who are n the film are still there? Would be very interesting and revealing too0 -
At least four of teachers are 'gone' .0
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