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Tenants rent allowance suspended

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    #122
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,715 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    And what actually happens next in real life? Who enforces the District Court order?

    With a district court order in hand I wouldn't think twice about changing locks and running the people in the house out the front gate.

    It's been proven they are in the house illegally, if the PRTB can still rule against a LL in this instance it's a joke of system that needs to be challenged to the highest court.


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    #123
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,299 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    Finley Bitter Nunnery wrote: »
    With a district court order in hand I wouldn't think twice about changing locks and running the people in the house out the front gate.
    The district court order will probably confirm that the person owes X amount, but I'm wondering will it say that they owe X amount AND need to vacate the property?

    Maybe someone who has being through this process can let us know? It being Ireland, I doubt it does demand vacancy as part of the ruling.


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    #124
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    And what actually happens next in real life? Who enforces the District Court order?

    First off, the tenant may realise that getting a conviction means they can't go abroad to some countries particularly the States.
    Secondly before sentence is imposed the Judge will ask if the property has been vacated. He will adjourn sentencing until it is or else impose a custodial sentence. Once the tenant is in custody the property is automatically vacated.


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    #125
    handlemaster
    Registered Users Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    First off, the tenant may realise that getting a conviction means they can't go abroad to some countries particularly the States.
    Secondly before sentence is imposed the Judge will ask if the property has been vacated. He will adjourn sentencing until it is or else impose a custodial sentence. Once the tenant is in custody the property is automatically vacated.

    Have you case Examples to back this up?


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    #126
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,448 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    First off, the tenant may realise that getting a conviction means they can't go abroad to some countries particularly the States.
    A criminal conviction...


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    #127
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    TheChizler wrote: »
    A criminal conviction...

    Yes, a criminal conviction.


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    #128
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    handlemaster wrote: »
    Have you case Examples to back this up?

    There are a number of cases being processed in the Dublin District Court at the moment.


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    #129
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,886 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    There are a number of cases being processed in the Dublin District Court at the moment.

    Update us when you have an actual example of a District Court order getting a house successfully vacated.


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    #130
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    Update us when you have an actual example of a District Court order getting a house successfully vacated.

    There was one last week. Tenant did not comply with determination order. landlord into District Court a few weeks later, tenant summoned. 4 weeks later tenant out, case struck out by landlord.


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    #131
    handlemaster
    Registered Users Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    There was one last week. Tenant did not comply with determination order. landlord into District Court a few weeks later, tenant summoned. 4 weeks later tenant out, case struck out by landlord.

    How much approx does it cost to get all that done?


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    #132
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,649 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    How long.


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    #133
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    handlemaster wrote: »
    How much approx does it cost to get all that done?

    Application goes into court immediately the determination Order expires. Tenant served and back in court about 3 to 5 weeks later. Cost about 1K to landlord.


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    #134
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,299 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    Application goes into court immediately the determination Order expires. Tenant served and back in court about 3 to 5 weeks later. Cost about 1K to landlord.
    Must be a new thing, as a few landlords are still waiting over a year of "no rent" to get their tenant out.


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    #135
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    the_syco wrote: »
    Must be a new thing, as a few landlords are still waiting over a year of "no rent" to get their tenant out.

    It has been there since the PRTB came into being, it is just that very few seem to avail of it.


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    #136
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    Application goes into court immediately the determination Order expires. Tenant served and back in court about 3 to 5 weeks later. Cost about 1K to landlord.

    Can this be backed up at all or is this anecdotally speaking
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




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    #137
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    Gatling wrote: »
    Can this be backed up at all or is this anecdotally speaking

    What do you mean backed up?


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    #138
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,886 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    There was one last week. Tenant did not comply with determination order. landlord into District Court a few weeks later, tenant summoned. 4 weeks later tenant out, case struck out by landlord.

    Who actually put the tenant out of the house?


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    #139
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    Who actually put the tenant out of the house?

    Sounds like the tenant left and the landlord then dropped the case.


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    #140
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,211 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »
    Sounds like the tenant left and the landlord then dropped the case.

    I'd imagine that was the object of the erercise. Tenant didn't want a criminal conviction, landlord had his house back and didn't want to keep after the tenant. They may have done a deal.


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    #141
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    I'd imagine that was the object of the erercise. Tenant didn't want a criminal conviction, landlord had his house back and didn't want to keep after the tenant. They may have done a deal.

    The point is that the Court can't do anything should the tenant stay put. The sheriff would need to carry out the order. And you can't go to court without going through the PRTB process first.

    They should have it like the UK. There, a lower court processes through the cases slowly but the High Court can be used for a quicker process (at a price). The High Court officers are then legally empowered to regain possession of the property by physically breaking into the property if necessary and evict the tenant.

    The PRTB is wholly inadequate and the courts should be used as an alternative for the landlord to regain possession legally in a more efficient time scale.


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    #142
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »
    The point is that the Court can't do anything should the tenant stay put. The sheriff would need to carry out the order. And you can't go to court without going through the PRTB process first.

    They should have it like the UK. There, a lower court processes through the cases slowly but the High Court can be used for a quicker process (at a price). The High Court officers are then legally empowered to regain possession of the property by physically breaking into the property if necessary and evict the tenant.

    The PRTB is wholly inadequate and the courts should be used as an alternative for the landlord to regain possession legally in a more efficient time scale.
    The court can put the tenant in prison if the tenant stays put. That would bring an end to the tenancy without the need for the sherrif!


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    #143
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    The court can put the tenant in prison if the tenant stays put. That would bring an end to the tenancy without the need for the sherrif!

    When's the last time if ever a court has put a tenant in prison for a tenant staying put
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




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    #144
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    Application goes into court immediately the determination Order expires. Tenant served and back in court about 3 to 5 weeks later. Cost about 1K to landlord.

    But all this can NOT happen until the PRTB process has been completed and their determination order has expired at which point it becomes a matter for the courts to arrange the physical eviction of the tenant.


    The process leading up to the court action can take over a year and cost thousands in lost and largely unrecoverable rent as well as risk of damage to the property.


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    #145
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    But all this can NOT happen until the PRTB process has been completed and their determination order has expired at which point it becomes a matter for the courts to arrange the physical eviction of the tenant.
    I have been talking all along about enforcing a determination order through the District Court. In the case of overholding/witholding of rent the PRTB give priority.


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    #146
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,211 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Gatling wrote: »
    When's the last time if ever a court has put a tenant in prison for a tenant staying put

    It has happened frequently with people refusing to leave land. There are cases in the papers frequently. If a tenant comes into court charged with committing a criminal offence the court is going to insist that the offence is no longer continuing before imposing a non custodial sentence. That is a general principle in sentencing. A court is not going to allow a crime to continue to be committed.
    Is it seriously being suggested that a person charged with committing a crime can say, "I am going to continue committing this crime but please only impose a fine or the probation act"?


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    #147
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,649 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    I think you have to go via the PRTB then the District Court. I have my doubts that the time scale given is for all of that. Its either just for the later part, and not including the time taken for the PRTB. or its bypassed the PRTB completely. I have no idea what the average waitlist for the PRTB are at the moment. It used to be a long time. It may be shorter now.

    http://www.irishlandlord.com/forum/showthread.php?t=923


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    #148
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    It has happened frequently with people refusing to leave land. There are cases in the papers frequently. If a tenant comes into court charged with committing a criminal offence the court is going to insist that the offence is no longer continuing before imposing a non custodial sentence. That is a general principle in sentencing. A court is not going to allow a crime to continue to be committed.
    Is it seriously being suggested that a person charged with committing a crime can say, "I am going to continue committing this crime but please only impose a fine or the probation act"?

    We're not talking about land, we're talking about tenants in property. The procedure is that the court upholds the determination order and you can then apply to the sheriff to carry out the eviction.

    I haven't heard of any tenant being given a sentence based on this. In fact it just shows that the PRTB are useless and toothless and nothing can happen or be enforced until the courts are involved.


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    #149
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    beauf wrote: »
    I think you have to go via the PRTB then the District Court. I have my doubts that the time scale given is for all of that. Its either just for the later part, and not including the time taken for the PRTB. or its bypassed the PRTB completely. I have no idea what the average waitlist for the PRTB are at the moment. It used to be a long time. It may be shorter now.

    http://www.irishlandlord.com/forum/showthread.php?t=923

    Yes you have to use the PRTB before the courts. The PRTB was set up to remove these cases from the courts, but the legislation doesn't give them enough power so it can only be enforced through the courts after the PRTB process has finished.


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    #150
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,211 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    beauf wrote: »
    I think you have to go via the PRTB then the District Court. I have my doubts that the time scale given is for all of that. Its either just for the later part, and not including the time taken for the PRTB. or its bypassed the PRTB completely. I have no idea what the average waitlist for the PRTB are at the moment. It used to be a long time. It may be shorter now.

    http://www.irishlandlord.com/forum/showthread.php?t=923

    The PRTB are giving priority to overholding and arrears cases. They are slower with deposit and maintenance cases.


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    #151
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,211 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »
    We're not talking about land, we're talking about tenants in property. The procedure is that the court upholds the determination order and you can then apply to the sheriff to carry out the eviction.

    I haven't heard of any tenant being given a sentence based on this. In fact it just shows that the PRTB are useless and toothless and nothing can happen or be enforced until the courts are involved.

    You are not taliking about tenants in property. You are talking about trespassers on land. Once the tenancy has been determined by the PRTB the tenant is a trespasser with no right of possession. It is a criminal offence. There is a criminal offence committed as well as the civil enforcement procedure through the Circuit Court. Just because you haven't heard of something does not mean it does not exist. There are a number of former tenant trespassers before the courts at the moment and there are arrest warrants for some of them.


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