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Tenants rent allowance suspended

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    #152
    lolokeogh
    Registered Users Posts: 325 ✭✭lolokeogh


    i know bills have to be paid by yourself but if shes in contact with you and trying to sort the matter i wouldnt just turf them out yet,i myself a few years ago fell 3 months behind with my rent,just forms went missing etc etc..but i kept in touch with my landlord throughout and he gave me the time.if the tenants are not in contact with you well then it might be said there not trying..out they go..but somtimes its worth keeping the faits,esp if they have been good tenants up until now..


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    #153
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    You are not taliking about tenants in property. You are talking about trespassers on land. Once the tenancy has been determined by the PRTB the tenant is a trespasser with no right of possession. It is a criminal offence. There is a criminal offence committed as well as the civil enforcement procedure through the Circuit Court. Just because you haven't heard of something does not mean it does not exist. There are a number of former tenant trespassers before the courts at the moment and there are arrest warrants for some of them.

    Can you please provide examples of people actually given custodial sentences for this. From everything I've heard the courts will not prosecute someone for it, only allow the landlord to enforce the order via the sheriff.


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    #154
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »
    Can you please provide examples of people actually given custodial sentences for this. From everything I've heard the courts will not prosecute someone for it, only allow the landlord to enforce the order via the sheriff.

    The Court does not prosecute, the landlord does. There are cases pending before Dublin District Court at the moment. There is no bar to a landlord prosecuting in the District Court.


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    #155
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    The Court does not prosecute, the landlord does. There are cases pending before Dublin District Court at the moment. There is no bar to a landlord prosecuting in the District Court.

    Links please
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




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    #156
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,448 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    So we've had criminal convictions preventing people from travelling to the US as a result of overstaying, and landlords prosecuting tenants in court. Evidence really is needed to back up this argument.


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    #157
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    Gatling wrote: »
    Links please

    What links do you want?


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    #158
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    TheChizler wrote: »
    So we've had criminal convictions preventing people from travelling to the US as a result of overstaying, and landlords prosecuting tenants in court. Evidence really is needed to back up this argument.

    What evidence do you want?


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    #159
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    What evidence do you want?

    Anything beyond hearsay.


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    #160
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,448 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    What evidence do you want?
    Links to first hand sources are generally the standard here, even second hand sources referencing actual cases would be a start.


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    #161
    Silverbling
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 311 ✭✭Silverbling


    MadDog76 wrote: »
    Generalise much?

    Do you receive any Welfare Benefits??
    If so, would you like to be generalised and judged because of it??

    Afterall, there a lot of people who receive Benefits who would be looked down upon by the rest of society because of the way they behave, dress, talk etc. ......... how would you feel about being lumped in there with them??

    There lots of good tenants and there are lots of bad tenants ........... some of them rent privately and some of them receive RA.

    I have recently been granted rent allowance at the ripe old age of nearly 50 after never being in the system because I am self employed and only in the 2nd year of trading, my books are assessed every 6 months and in 2 years they expect me to be employing myself and possibly other people so after my 30 years paying a lot of tax they will look after me until I get back on my feet..........but no one will take it

    RA should not just be dismissed because of the stigma

    OP if this is month 2, instead of starting eviction proceedings why not sit down with your decent tenant of 5 years and find out which form either she or you have missed, email SW and the homeless unit and say her and the kids are going to be homeless because of their actions, I would mail it to a TD or two as well, can you not use her deposit as an interim measure?

    Edited to say sorry I peaked too early, you did sit down and talk to her


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    #162
    CollyFlower
    Registered Users Posts: 6,053 ✭✭✭CollyFlower


    Silverbling wrote: »
    I have recently been granted rent allowance at the ripe old age of nearly 50 after never being in the system because I am self employed and only in the 2nd year of trading, my books are assessed every 6 months and in 2 years they expect me to be employing myself and possibly other people so after my 30 years paying a lot of tax they will look after me until I get back on my feet..........but no one will take it

    RA should not just be dismissed because of the stigma

    OP if this is month 2, instead of starting eviction proceedings why not sit down with your decent tenant of 5 years and find out which form either she or you have missed, email SW and the homeless unit and say her and the kids are going to be homeless because of their actions, I would mail it to a TD or two as well, can you not use her deposit as an interim measure?

    Edited to say sorry I peaked too early, you did sit down and talk to her

    I don't understand why people like you Silverbling are being ignored when things go wrong, you, of all people, you should be protisied.


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    #163
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »
    Anything beyond hearsay.

    What hearsay have you been given? There is the offence. The newspapers haven't report on summary District Court cases. You can go to the District Court yourself and see the cases being prosecuted. You are adopting a position that because you haven't heard of it, it doesn't happen. Can you produce evidence that anyone has tried to prosecute the offence and not been allowed to?

    RESIDENTIAL TENANCIES ACT 2004
    126.—(1) A person who fails to comply with one or more terms of a determination order is guilty of an offence.

    (2) Subsection (1) has effect notwithstanding the means provided under section 124 for enforcement of a determination order.

    (3) A person convicted of an offence under this section shall not be sentenced to any term of imprisonment in respect of that offence if he or she shows that the failure to comply with the term or terms concerned was due to his or her limited financial means.


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    #164
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    TheChizler wrote: »
    Links to first hand sources are generally the standard here, even second hand sources referencing actual cases would be a start.

    The cases before the District court have not been published in the newspapers and therefore there are no links available. The only link is to the offence. You will have to go to Court to see the prosecutions take place.

    http://www.bailii.org/ie/legis/num_act/2004/0027.html#partvi-chapix-sec126


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    #165
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    Secondly before sentence is imposed the Judge will ask if the property has been vacated. He will adjourn sentencing until it is or else impose a custodial sentence. Once the tenant is in custody the property is automatically vacated.

    So in other words, from the legislation you've quoted, you were wrong before?


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    #166
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »
    So in other words, from the legislation you've quoted, you were wrong before?

    How was I wrong?


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    #167
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    How was I wrong?

    You said they'd be sent to prison and the legislation says they won't.

    (Sure, it says for financial hardship but they're the only ones that get that far.)


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    #168
    Cuddlesworth
    Registered Users Posts: 13,984 ✭✭✭✭Cuddlesworth


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    How was I wrong?

    You seem to be skirting around how you get the determination order. That process involves a PRTB hearing and then, if successful, a district court case which can take well over a year. What you're discussing is enforcing that order, which is a short process. The sheriff is required to evict the tenants and their property and a criminal case can be lodged for failure to comply. I've been indirectly involved in too many of these cases for there to suddenly be a 1 month magical legal process that nobody else knows about.


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    #169
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    Cuddlesworth wrote: »
    You seem to be skirting around how you get the determination order. That process involves a PRTB hearing and then, if successful, a district court case which can take well over a year. What you're discussing is enforcing that order, which is a short process. The sheriff is required to evict the tenants and their property and a criminal case can be lodged for failure to comply. I've been indirectly involved in too many of these cases for there to suddenly be a 1 month magical legal process that nobody else knows about.

    The problem is he phrased it like it was a magical legal process and then later said he was talking about enforcing the PRTB order all along.

    Now he's claiming the court is locking up poor people who've gotten advice from Threshold to overhold.


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    #170
    qo2cj1dsne8y4k
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,646 ✭✭✭✭qo2cj1dsne8y4k


    Wtf, threshold are advising people to over hold??


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    #171
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    LexieOnRale wrote: »
    Wtf, threshold are advising people to over hold??

    Take a look here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057343907


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    #172
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,211 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »
    You said they'd be sent to prison and the legislation says they won't.

    (Sure, it says for financial hardship but they're the only ones that get that far.)

    How can financia; hardship prevent a person vacating a property?


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    #173
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,211 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Cuddlesworth wrote: »
    You seem to be skirting around how you get the determination order. That process involves a PRTB hearing and then, if successful, a district court case which can take well over a year. What you're discussing is enforcing that order, which is a short process. The sheriff is required to evict the tenants and their property and a criminal case can be lodged for failure to comply. I've been indirectly involved in too many of these cases for there to suddenly be a 1 month magical legal process that nobody else knows about.

    A criminal case can be lodged immediately the Determination Order becomes effective. It is specifically provided that it runs in addition to the enforcement process in the Circuit Court. Surprisingly few people avail of the District Court process judging by the comments here.


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    #174
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,211 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »
    Take a look here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057343907

    Threshold people should be charged with counselling and procuring a crime. That would soften their cough.


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    #175
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,886 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    How can financia; hardship prevent a person vacating a property?

    It can mean that they cannot afford to pay the deposit required to move in anywhere else.

    I can mean that they cannot afford to put their stuff into storage, which would let them present to the council as homeless.


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    #176
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,211 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    It can mean that they cannot afford to pay the deposit required to move in anywhere else.

    I can mean that they cannot afford to put their stuff into storage, which would let them present to the council as homeless.

    It doesn't mean they can't move out. There is emergency accommodation for homeless people. There are grants for deposits. There is no excuse for not vacating. What happens when the sherrif comes. Does he have to give them a deposit before he turfs people on the street?


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    #177
    Cuddlesworth
    Registered Users Posts: 13,984 ✭✭✭✭Cuddlesworth


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    A criminal case can be lodged immediately the Determination Order becomes effective. It is specifically provided that it runs in addition to the enforcement process in the Circuit Court. Surprisingly few people avail of the District Court process judging by the comments here.

    In every case I have personally heard of, except one involving a heroin junkie, once the long and drawn out process of PRTB and district court is done the tenant leaves. So in almost all but the most extreme cases, it's a moot point.


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    #178
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »
    The problem is he phrased it like it was a magical legal process and then later said he was talking about enforcing the PRTB order all along.

    Now he's claiming the court is locking up poor people who've gotten advice from Threshold to overhold.

    I always referred to getting a PRTB determination first. I was not talking about the Section 124 enforcement. I was talking about the Section 126 criminal offence which happens simultaneously with the right to enforcement. You should read the legislation sometime.


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    #179
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    Cuddlesworth wrote: »
    In every case I have personally heard of, except one involving a heroin junkie, once the long and drawn out process of PRTB and district court is done the tenant leaves. So in almost all but the most extreme cases, it's a moot point.

    How many cases have you heard of involved the District Court?


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    #180
    Cuddlesworth
    Registered Users Posts: 13,984 ✭✭✭✭Cuddlesworth


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    How many cases have you heard of involved the District Court?

    Plenty. There is a thread on this very forum in the last two months where a landlord finished his year long eviction experience, which was bang on the timeline I quoted last year in the same thread.

    You come across as somebody who has read very specific parts of legislation, without understanding or taking into account amendments in later years. Close enough to a Freeman methodology.


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    #181
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    Cuddlesworth wrote: »
    Plenty. There is a thread on this very forum in the last two months where a landlord finished his year long eviction experience, which was bang on the timeline I quoted last year in the same thread.

    You come across as somebody who has read very specific parts of legislation, without understanding or taking into account amendments in later years. Close enough to a Freeman methodology.

    That thread concerned the Circuit Court. I specifically asked about the District Court. Neither Section 124 or 126 has been amended ever!

    Now, how many cases have you heard of in the district Court, not the Circuit Court?


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