**Spoilers** Series 9, Episode 7 - "The Zygon Invasion"

pixelburp

So if 'The Girl Who Died' felt like a template of a standard Dr. Who adventure, the vibes 'The Zygon Invasion' are giving off certainly feel equally typical, that of something from the 3rd Doctor era: UNIT vs. a subversive alien invasion. Gotta say, I'm looking forward to a straightforward, no nonsense invasion story.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwRckxsevz8

Sonics2k

So uh, that was actually pretty bloody good.

I missed a bit toward the end, so I'll have to watch it again tomorrow to make sure I didn't miss out on much.

WomanSkirtFan8

Holy moly, what an episode!

Absolutely fantastic episode from start to finish. Can't wait to see the second part of this story and also just to see how exactly the doctor manages to sort this one out!:)

I was a bit confused at the start but otherwise it was awesome

Penn

Well, good thing there are definitely no parallels to be drawn between the Zygons and Muslims in the UK. Nope. None whatsoever.

Penn

Penn wrote: »

Well, good thing there are definitely no parallels to be drawn between the Zygons and Muslims in the UK. Nope. None whatsoever.

Shapeshifting and keeping people in pods?

Penn

bluewolf wrote: »

Shapeshifting and keeping people in pods?

Millions of them in the country
Some extremist groups
Using schools as a trojan horse to radicalise young ones
Extremist training camps operating in desert locations and caves
The army (UNIT) using drones against them and bombing small towns

Sorry, I genuinely thought the parallels between the Zygons and Extremist Muslims/ISIS was so overdone as to be completely intentional and somewhat topical.

Jaysus I didn't get that at all from it

SparklersJo

Penn wrote: »

Millions of them in the country
Some extremist groups
Using schools as a trojan horse to radicalise young ones
Extremist training camps operating in desert locations and caves
The army (UNIT) using drones against them and bombing small towns

Sorry, I genuinely thought the parallels between the Zygons and Extremist Muslims/ISIS was so overdone as to be completely intentional and somewhat topical.

You weren't the only one. I thought it was really obvious as well. Even when the zygon was sayng to the doctor that they wanted to be recognised as who they really are in the world, the Doctor joked that they would never be accepted in England, people would be scared they'd steal all their benefits.

bren2001

Really good episode, I was busy doing some code on my laptop at the start but stopped pretty quickly to pay attention. Really intrigued to see how the Doctor gets off that plane. If he uses the bloody sonic, I'll be annoyed.

Although I do have a few questions, apologies if they were explained and I missed them.

Why does he actually use the plane instead of the Tardis to travel? Surely, he cuts out a lot of useless travel time. I know he says he enjoys using it just before he embarks, seems odd though.

Also, him being President of the World. Surely he can order the drone strike be called off? When Nicole Murray gave him 10 minutes, it just seemed a bit odd.

In relation to the Muslim parallels, I think it tried to deal with the topic of minority groups and the anonymity of war as opposed to Muslims specifically. We see the drone strike operator cancel the strike when she sees he family and the UNIT officers stand down also. I don't see how that would be Muslim specific. It was all very in your face but it worked.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Wasn't overly impressed with this, if I'm honest.

The ISIS, refugees, muslims etc. stuff was just too heavily laid on.

It's funny, there was an episode last series and everyone was banging on about how it was really about abortion and a woman's right to choose and how it was way too heavy handed and I was baffled, I didn't pick up on any of it while watching the episode.

This one however it felt like they were banging me over the head with it. Not subtle at all.

"LET'S BOMB THEM!"
"No! You'll radicalise them!"

The army commander saying it could be anyone, they could be in our homes, on our streets, in our families!

The (attempt) to shoot down the plane was bad timing given what happened yesterday.

Duckjob

Was cracking up at the early scene in the playground which, if you take it out of context of the story, is an elderly man chasing 2 seven yr old girls around a kids playground

Penn

Duckjob wrote: »

Was cracking up at the early scene in the playground which, if you take it out of context of the story, is an elderly man chasing 2 seven yr old girls around a kids playground

Have never been a fan of Osgood, but I lost it when the Doctor said he had question mark underpants and she replied "One would have to wonder what the question is..."

Angron

I'm kinda hoping the "Yes, I know who you are." line was a reference to poor old Harriet Jones :pac:

The subtext for the episode felt like it was laid on more than a little thickly though.

flazio

Something to watch out for next week.

If there's 2 Osgoods then there's 2 Kate Stewarts

Stark

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

It's funny, there was an episode last series and everyone was banging on about how it was really about abortion and a woman's right to choose and how it was way too heavy handed and I was baffled, I didn't pick up on any of it while watching the episode.

Which episode was that?

Edit: Just googled and see it was "Kill the moon". Yeah didn't really get that vibe off it either. Unless maybe it was specifically abortion in cases where the pregnancy threatens the life of everyone on Earth. (Is that covered by the 8th amendment?)

bren2001 wrote:

Really intrigued to see how the Doctor gets off that plane. If he uses the bloody sonic, I'll be annoyed.

Probably one of
- Divert the missile using the sonic
- Summon the TARDIS to rescue them

Guessing the latter

Penn

flazio wrote: »

Something to watch out for next week.

If there's 2 Osgoods then there's 2 Kate Stewarts

Not particularly. A lot was made of how the 2 Osgoods were essentially the physical embodiment of the peace treaty. They choose to stay the same and never reveal which was which. No one said the same of Kate, and it's hugely doubtful given her position that they would have let her Zygon counterpart just keep being Kate Stewart.

But I'd say Kate somehow survived the Zygon attack and is pretending to be a Zygon. Rule of television, if you don't see someone die, they're probably still alive.

FloatingVoter

Penn wrote: »

But I'd say Kate somehow survived the Zygon attack and is pretending to be a Zygon. Rule of television, if you don't see someone die, they're probably still alive.

Another rule of TV, if it's Jemma Redgrave, she'll more than likely be back. Acting royalty and all that.

bren2001

FloatingVoter wrote: »

Another rule of TV, if it's Jemma Redgrave, she'll more than likely be back. Acting royalty and all that.

I'm assuming they copy her and lock her away like Clara. They only kill them once they have learned everything they need to know, I'm sure it would take some time to learn everything from Kate. So she will be saved by the Doctor at the end, I imagine.

Doctor DooM

I loved it.

As for the subtext- that's what sci fi is for. It's the dark mirror that reflects our society. Largely, it goes ignored by those it's eviscerating, which is part of why it's important (for example in countries where attacking the government could get you killed).

The x-men are a group of people that are born different and hated by society for it. Created in 1960's America.

Godzilla is a rampaging atomic force of destruction. Created in Japan in the 50s.

Captain America, who famously emerged with an image of punching Hitler in the face, was created by Jewish immigrants to the States, prior to their full engagement in the war. A decade ago, he spearheaded a movement fighting against the American government who wanted registration of every non "normal" character in the country.

Terry Pratchett's later Discworld books are rather vicious attacks on class structure and many modern ills- and hide them in a tolkien parody.

It's deadly, long may it continue

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

^ Yeah but a bit of subtlety never hurt. It was laid on pretty thick here.

Angron

Yeah, it was the fact that it was about as subtle as a bulldozer was the only thing I had issue with.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Angron wrote: »

Yeah, it was the fact that it was about as subtle as a bulldozer was the only thing I had issue with.

It was about 5 minutes in they had Osgood delivering a video message in front of a black flag flanked by two soldiers. That was probably the least heavy handed scene

Angron

Actually, did think of one other bit of idiocy that confused me. When they were outside the church, the soldier asked his "mother" when and where was he born. She didn't answer the question (if I recall correctly). Fair enough not knowing the name of his teddy from childhood, but no way should she have not known the date of his birth. They probably deserve to die if they'd follow them into the church after that if they are that stupid.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Angron wrote: »

Actually, did think of one other bit of idiocy that confused me. When they were outside the church, the soldier asked his "mother" when and where was he born. She didn't answer the question (if I recall correctly). Fair enough not knowing the name of his teddy from childhood, but no way should she have not known the date of his birth. They probably deserve to die if they'd follow them into the church after that if they are that stupid.

Yeah, that was quite poorly done. Someone else mentioned why the Doctor used the plane instead of the Tardis. It was obviously just so Clara could shoot at it at the end. If he'd used the Tardis he could have just landed inside the church and saved the army all the bother.

I suppose they tried covering that with "well i like poncing around in the presidental plan"

bren2001

Angron wrote: »

Actually, did think of one other bit of idiocy that confused me. When they were outside the church, the soldier asked his "mother" when and where was he born. She didn't answer the question (if I recall correctly). Fair enough not knowing the name of his teddy from childhood, but no way should she have not known the date of his birth. They probably deserve to die if they'd follow them into the church after that if they are that stupid.

I thought it was odd he didn't ask more questions. I understand what the director was trying to convey but it really didn't work in this scene.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Yeah, that was quite poorly done. Someone else mentioned why the Doctor used the plane instead of the Tardis. It was obviously just so Clara could shoot at it at the end. If he'd used the Tardis he could have just landed inside the church and saved the army all the bother.

I understood why the writers put it this way. I didn't understand the Doctors motivations behind it nor were they ever explained bar a 1 sentence statement which seemed half assed.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

bren2001 wrote: »

I understood why the writers put it this way. I didn't understand the Doctors motivations behind it nor were they ever explained bar a 1 sentence statement which seemed half assed.

Yeah, there were a few things like that. They didn't make a lot of sense if you're looking for logic but it was obvious why they had done them that way in terms of shaping the episode.
The woman operating the drone bombers just having a photo of her family stuck to her control desk was another one. She likes to look at her kid as she's bombing villages?

Penn

Angron wrote: »

Actually, did think of one other bit of idiocy that confused me. When they were outside the church, the soldier asked his "mother" when and where was he born. She didn't answer the question (if I recall correctly). Fair enough not knowing the name of his teddy from childhood, but no way should she have not known the date of his birth. They probably deserve to die if they'd follow them into the church after that if they are that stupid.

The biggest bit of idiocy in that whole section is that, even if the soldiers believed it may really be members of their family, why follow them into the church? Just say "Okay, if you're really my mother and are afraid I'll kill you, go stand over by that other building and stay out of the way."

Doctor DooM

Fiver says the TARDIS is on the plane anyway...

Doctor DooM

Penn wrote: »

The biggest bit of idiocy in that whole section is that, even if the soldiers believed it may really be members of their family, why follow them into the church? Just say "Okay, if you're really my mother and are afraid I'll kill you, go stand over by that other building and stay out of the way."

Or how about make mr soldier man walk away while the other guys keep an eye on the mother. If she changes shape while they're watching they shoot. If she still can't answer his questions, they shoot these people they have no attachment too that logically they know are aliens.

UNIT's a bit thick now I think about it

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

When the Doctor was on the phone to "Clara" at the end did he tell her to get to the Tardis because the invasion had already happened? Which would imply the Tardis isn't on the plane......

Penn

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

When the Doctor was on the phone to "Clara" at the end did he tell her to get to the Tardis because the invasion had already happened? Which would imply the Tardis isn't on the plane......

Wouldn't surprise me if he knew Clara wasn't Clara and was lying to her so the Zygons would think he was dead.

My question is why didn't the Zygon they had tied up not turn into a small person or a child and then they could easily not be tied up any more.

The episode was good overall, but it's suffering from some really sh*tty writing where simply not enough thought has been put into it.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Penn wrote: »

Wouldn't surprise me if he knew Clara wasn't Clara and was lying to her so the Zygons would think he was dead.

It was fairly obvious from the second Clara came out of that flat that she wasn't Clara. If the Doctor's as smart as he makes out he'll have figured it out. Could explain why he left her at home in London instead of sending her to New Mexico or taking her with him.

FloatingVoter

It's got people dressed as large pink turds taking over the planet and is designed for the smaller members of the audience. And good for it. Those of us who can spot logic bombs, benefits analogies and critiques of the human need for outsiders were already served well with the dull talkies about immortality and it's consequences a while back. All 10 year olds are immortal therefore all talk of dying is dull.
Did anybody under 10 notice parallels with reality or were they wrapped up in the scary 10 foot space turds ?
It's Doctor Who. Anybody needing special forces procedures (shoot twat, make memo later) had better not been one of the idiots complaining about American Sniper over in Films.
It is no more or less about Syrian refugees than it is about Jews seeking shelter from Hitler or Jews being evicted from England in the 12th century. Maybe single women / witches in 16th century Europe. Maybe black people in South Africa up until they became cool again.
Think like a Doctor not just some passerby who caught a current headline.

pixelburp

I would crib an observation that the AV club used in their own reviewing, quoting Tolkien that 'applicability resides in the freedom of the reader', in that the themes are clearly there and if the viewer chooses to see the parallels with British Muslims, it's there on the screen and a reasonable conclusion. Those who just want to take it as a story about giant turds taking over the world are equally free to do so too. The story was patently trying to be both.

And as already expressed above, Science Fiction has ALWAYS raised questions about our collective humanity through the lens of alien invasions, AI gone rogue, etc. etc. That by asking humanity and people to deal with the unreal, we find out a little more about the real. It's practically Sci-Fi 101 tbh. Sometimes the squishy monsters are just squishy monsters, oftentimes they're not.

Now, I also agree that the subtext wasn't really 'sub' at all; on the basis of this and 'Kill The Moon', while I'd commend Peter Harness for trying to inject some real-world issues into his scripts, his application has had all the subtly of a hammer. That said, the issue is a live one in Britain at the moment and I'd be curious to know what the redtop / media response to this episode was (if any)

One nerdy thing I did like was Kate Stewarts references to the events of 'Terror of the Zygons', noting that it happened in 'the 70s or 80s', a nice nod towards the completely bollícksed continuity; also a shoutout to Harry Sullivan, the inventor of what I am presuming is a Checkov's gas and will eventually kill the rogue Zygons.

Generally though, enjoyable, old fashioned invasion story, with some much needed globe-trotting fun, but it felt curiously flat overall, a bit shoddily directed in places too. Peter Capaldi also seemed way off form, with a very muted, sombre performance. Not one of his better outings imo...

jasonb

Well, I have to say I didn't like it at all. I could get what it's trying to do, but if just felt like it was doing it badly.

Yes, the writers have to create situations (like Clara firing a missile at an aircraft with the Doctor on it) but they can sometimes be funny and clever about how they create these situations. This episode definitely wasn't that.

I know it's only TV, and I know it's a kids show, but it's always been only TV and a kid's show, and there have been some great episode that didn't have the plot holes this one had. There's a scene where the Doctor tells Kate not to bomb anyone. Next scene, he arrives at the training camp to witness the bombing about to start. Who ordered that? Why didn't he stop it? Why didn't Kate stop it? Why did Kate go to a suspicious town *all on her own* to investigate? Once again, yes, I know why the writers did it, but not why it was done as part of the story. It was all just so heavy handed and hitting us over the head, nothing subtle or clever about it at all. And very, very clichéd. I think whenever there's a UNIT story we get far too many shots of highly trained soldiers collecting guns, lock and loading, marching off, and then being as stupid as humanly possible...

Another little bug bear - The Doctor playing guitar and arriving on a tank in Viking times was a cool scene. The Doctor playing guitar at some point in every episode since then is just annoying. We get it, Peter Calpaldi can play the guitar. What's even more annoying is I think (probably due to sound recording issues) that he's miming in the scenes, so it looks like he's only pretending to play, thereby taking away the 'coolness' of him being able to play! Though it still doesn't look as bad as him on a horse!

Anyhow, rant over. I really like him as a Doctor, but this latest episode was just lazy writing full of clichés and I found it very poor...

J.

FloatingVoter

I'd agree with the above two posters regarding that episode in general. I watch Who and if I don't get it try to imagine what a 10 year old would make of it.
I can only assume it was deliberately written for a very young audience - senior military figures do not enter hostile territory, and special forces are not just hard lads - they will butcher men, women and children without question.
Will someone in ownership of one of these small people hold them upside down and shake them or whatever you do to make an opinion come out - ask one what they made of it ?

Oh, and yes Jasonb, he can keep the shades but middle aged men who still want to be Keith Richards are not cool. Even Keith Richards just wants to be a grandad these days.

Das Kitty

I have to say, I really enjoyed it and am looking forward to part 2.

I did clock changeling Clara straight away though. If she hadn't immediately put up her hair I may have overlooked it, but it's a classic doppelganger trope. Her evil look to camera near the end was really quite sexy. More please.

Do you know when Kate Stewart showed up in New Mexico in her 4x4 and there were tumbleweeds being blown about? I loved the realisation later that those weren't tumbleweeds.

pixelburp wrote: »

Checkov's gas

:D:D:D:D:D