ESB public charging plans

It is sad but some were to quick to run to Today Fm and then the Irish Times wrote a more damaging article as a result without researching the true facts. They didn't highlight the fact most driving will be met with the home charge point costing substantially less than diesel. They only wrote about the comparable cost to diesel when using the charge points for long trips !

DrPhilG

DrPhilG wrote: »

That has been clearly demonstrated today on the Facebook group.

I gained 68% in 31 minutes at a fast charger, yet another user at a different charger needed 37 minutes to gain 56%.

And both of us driving a Leaf.

You might understand if his was a 2011 with a much more worn battery, but his was a 2015, mine a 14.

Battery Temperature has a big impact on charger output sent to the battery and state of charge.

The higher the state of charge the slower the charge rate for instance 80-100 will take longer than 10-80%.

for the same battery temp I have not found a big difference in charger output and I have used 3 different types.

If I start to charge from about 18% with a "battery" temp of 8 deg C the power going to the battery will be around 35 kw. The lower the temp the slower the charge, if the battery was at 0 Deg C it could take an hour to get from 18-80% check your manuals !

If I charge at 18 Deg C it will be 47 Kw starting off.

A battery will charge slower and slower as it ages but the 2014+ shouldn't see this happen for much longer than the 2011-2013

BoatMad

ESB networks are not a seller of electricity this would be Electric Ireland and so can not bill per KWh and if they were to do this then the regulator would be involved and it would (probably ?) get a lot messier. And it could work out a lot more expensive. It's far easier to bill per minute for the use of the service not the electricity, then the ESB will get billed per Kwh, it's far easier this way.
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From talking to people who attended the Esb meetings , it was never flagged as an issue that you couldn't be billed in kWh , anyway Esb could bill though retailers easily. They have the it system already setup.

No reason why kWh would be dearer.

Per minute charging exists because it optimises revenue for the Esb, because of the charge taper profile, that's all.

Your savings computations are personal to you

Anyone undertaking a journey without first having a long charge at home, which isnt always possible or convenient , will now be charged more for that trip then an equivalent small diesel. So much for the EV revolution

To suggest you'll charge a 60 kW battery in 10 hours at 32 amps is optimistic and also falls out of the night rate ( 8 hours. ) not to mention what happens when you come back from that party at 1am and have to leave for work at 7 am

Leaving aside the fact that 32 a circuits at home are problematic given the size of the supply infrastructure into domestic houses here.

Naw mad_lad , the Esb is just strangling the EV at birth that's all

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

Battery Temperature has a big impact on charger output sent to the battery and state of charge.

The higher the state of charge the slower the charge rate for instance 80-100 will take longer than 10-80%.

for the same battery temp I have not found a big difference in charger output and I have used 3 different types.

If I start to charge from about 18% with a "battery" temp of 8 deg C the power going to the battery will be around 35 kw. The lower the temp the slower the charge, if the battery was at 0 Deg C it could take an hour to get from 18-80% check your manuals !

If I charge at 18 Deg C it will be 47 Kw starting off.

A battery will charge slower and slower as it ages but the 2014+ shouldn't see this happen for much longer than the 2011-2013

These are just obfuscation arguments. FCP charging by the minute at 30 cents is outrageous , discriminates against people with older smaller batteries , discriminates against charging at different points in the charge cycle

It's an outrageous price, makes fcp charging dearer then diesel and if implemented will kill the EV market in Ireland , the ESB MUST RETHINK

thierry14

NIMAN wrote: »

The main point is that this news will now make some folk who were considering an EV to think again, with the likelihood that many will just say "I couldnt be bothered with that, I'll just stick to the diesel".

Thats the sad thing.

It's not a sad thing, it's the right thing to do.

Anyone buying an EV now is mental.

Your at the mercy of the ESB.

BoatMad

your at the mercy of the ESB

That unfortunately is the kernel of the issue and the Esb are notorious for being expensive

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

These are just obfuscation arguments. FCP charging by the minute at 30 cents is outrageous , discriminates against people with older smaller batteries , discriminates against charging at different points in the charge cycle

It's an outrageous price, makes fcp charging dearer then diesel and if implemented will kill the EV market in Ireland , the ESB MUST RETHINK

I am not saying it can't be done only ESB networks can't bill the public for Kwh, this would have to go through electric Ireland and they're not in control of the charging network and I'm not a customer of theirs.

If users were to be billed by their own electric company then there would be extra administrative expenses which we would end up paying so I say the best solution is to have a reasonable per minute cost or keep it at 30 C/min for PAYG and maybe 15 Cent per min with the monthly cost. And maybe 30 Pm and 8 C/kwh for the higher user. Again , you can sigh up for a month if you think you will use the network a lot for that month etc.

I reckon billing per Kwh will end up as expensive or more.

BoatMad

The very best way would be to break up the Esb. And sell off the generating plants to private operators that could compete effectively

Benny_Cake

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It is sad but some were to quick to run to Today Fm and then the Irish Times wrote a more damaging article as a result without researching the true facts. They didn't highlight the fact most driving will be met with the home charge point costing substantially less than diesel. They only wrote about the comparable cost to diesel when using the charge points for long trips !

I have absolutely no problem with the fact that Alan and others spoke to the media about this. This is lousy publicity for electric vehicles but the fault for that lies entirely with the ESB.

Certainly charging at home is a great aspect of owning an electric car. That isn't an option for everyone, someone I work with owns a Leaf but lives in an apartment and relies entirely on the public charging infrastructure.

It'd a terrible deal. To the monthly charge and 30c per minute at a FCP add the inconvenience of taking longer journeys and the additional cost of purchasing an electric vehicle in the first place. A lot of people will decide they don't need the hassle and will stick with what they know. Can't say I'd blame them.

MaxPower89

BoatMad wrote: »

The very best way would be to break up the Esb. And sell off the generating plants to private operators that could compete effectively

What do you mean by this? Sell off the power stations?

Villain

Deleted User wrote: »

It is sad but some were to quick to run to Today Fm and then the Irish Times wrote a more damaging article as a result without researching the true facts. They didn't highlight the fact most driving will be met with the home charge point costing substantially less than diesel. They only wrote about the comparable cost to diesel when using the charge points for long trips !

Quick to run? Do you consider the facts before you make claims like that? When the flyer was leaked I called the Ecar call center and asked for a call back that was over a week ago, never got a call back. I called again on Monday and was told plans hadn't been decided and was once again promised a call back.

I didn't get a call so I started trying to contact ecars directly to no avail, I then tweeted and got a call back from a lady in ecars, again saying no pricing had been confirmed and it was a draft.

I then got a call from Gareth saying the same really, then the PDF was leaked and then ecars announced it. At which point I contacted media and started the petition.

If you want to have a go at someone for this mess then at look at ecars.

Jaketherake

Thanks Guys. It seems the Leaf is a waste of time for us at those charging rates. Especially given the extra hassle, time and expense of the journeys.
If it was cheaper by a long way the extra time might be worth it, but thats ridiculous as is.
Thanks for the help.
No leaf for us so. The mrs will be disappointed, but when she sees those figures she'll agree.
As was said before, its probably a good car for commuting, or bussing around on short journeys, but its horrendous for any sort of a journey that involves a charge now.
Thanks ESB.

bk

Jaketherake, I wouldn't give up on EV's completely, something like a Prius or Auris Hybrid looks like it could be a good fit for your needs. Looking at those options for myself.

Scottie99

Deleted User wrote: »

Battery Temperature has a big impact on charger output sent to the battery and state of charge.

The higher the state of charge the slower the charge rate for instance 80-100 will take longer than 10-80%.

for the same battery temp I have not found a big difference in charger output and I have used 3 different types.

If I start to charge from about 18% with a "battery" temp of 8 deg C the power going to the battery will be around 35 kw. The lower the temp the slower the charge, if the battery was at 0 Deg C it could take an hour to get from 18-80% check your manuals !

If I charge at 18 Deg C it will be 47 Kw starting off.

A battery will charge slower and slower as it ages but the 2014+ shouldn't see this happen for much longer than the 2011-2013

The fact is - nobody is interested in nonsense like that. People want to pay a fair price for the amount energy they take.

Jaketherake

bk wrote: »

Jaketherake, I wouldn't give up on EV's completely, something like a Prius or Auris Hybrid looks like it could be a good fit for your needs. Looking at those options for myself.

Yeah, if it does happen it will be hybrid only. Never going to entertain the thought of all electric now.

Benny_Cake

Jaketherake wrote: »

Yeah, if it does happen it will be hybrid only. Never going to entertain the thought of all electric now.

Honestly, even if the ESB offered a cast iron guarantee that charging was to be free for the next 5 years I wouldn't pick any 100% electric vehicle to drive from Naul to Cahirsiveen on a regular basis. It's a long enough journey in any vehicle and unless you were driving a Tesla Model S it would be too painful, for me anyway.

Check out hybrids such as the Auris or Prius and plug-in hybrids (not many available here currently, the Mitsubishi Outlander and Golf GTE are the only two I can think of).

DrPhilG

Jaketherake wrote: »

Yeah, if it does happen it will be hybrid only. Never going to entertain the thought of all electric now.

Never is a long time.

In 3 years or so we should be seeing affordable cars with around 200 mile range.

That's a game changer, regardless of the ESB pricing issues.

Remember folks, we're helping to improve the infrastructure so that it's suitable for mass adoption to electric, our aim is to encourage more people to electric. And we think now that these charges by the ESb will make EV driving expensive correct ? I am sure it will for people that depend soely on Public chargers however, I certainly would not have an EV at this time with no home charging, theis needs to be addressed at a political level but thhis Government are not interested so people need to get on to their TD's and get the ball rolling if indeed ye really do want to encourage people to electric.

So if we want the ESB to charge per Kwh then we're asking that when we have 3 times the range to pay 3 times as much ?

So when people flock to electric in the future and pay per kwh and they say it's expensive, do we tell them Eah, well, we were responsible for this because we went to national radio and the Newspapers to get the ESb to charge us per Kwh .

I think people are missing the "bigger" picture here.

This all depends on how many 100 Kw+ chargers become available when the 60+ kwh batteries arrive and if they can charge at 100 Kw but faster charging is the future but if you have 100 Kw charging you will get just over twice the range for the same time on the charger because you're charging twice as fast .

Of course if you charge at the same 50Kw charger then you will pay a lot more, so this all depends on 100 Kw charging and if the ESB don't make money from this then we risk the network being sold to god know's who who will charge us God knows what and not only that but future expansion will be slow and the roll out of 100 kw chargers.

So this is something we really need to consider, do we really want to peruse the ESB to bill per Kwh ? I guarantee, it won't be cheap !

Hector Mildew

Deleted User wrote: »

Remember folks, we're helping to improve the infrastructure so that it's suitable for mass adoption to electric, our aim is to encourage more people to electric. And we think now that these charges by the ESb will make EV driving expensive correct ? I am sure it will for people that depend soely on Public chargers however, I certainly would not have an EV at this time with no home charging, theis needs to be addressed at a political level but thhis Government are not interested so people need to get on to their TD's and get the ball rolling if indeed ye really do want to encourage people to electric.

So if we want the ESB to charge per Kwh then we're asking that when we have 3 times the range to pay 3 times as much ?

So when people flock to electric in the future and pay per kwh and they say it's expensive, do we tell them Eah, well, we were responsible for this because we went to national radio and the Newspapers to get the ESb to charge us per Kwh .

I think people are missing the "bigger" picture here.

This all depends on how many 100 Kw+ chargers become available when the 60+ kwh batteries arrive and if they can charge at 100 Kw but faster charging is the future but if you have 100 Kw charging you will get just over twice the range for the same time on the charger because you're charging twice as fast .

Of course if you charge at the same charger then you will pay a lot more, so this all depends on 100 Kw charging and if the ESB don't make money from this then we risk the network being sold to god know's who who will charge us God knows what and not only that but future expansion will be slow and the roll out of 100 kw chargers.

So this is something we really need to consider, do we really want to peruse the ESB to bill per Kwh ? I guarantee, it won't be cheap !

That makes a lot of sense. Assuming that in a couple of years 60 Kw can be charge from 0-80% in 30 minutes, it would cost €9 at 30c per min or over €14 at 30c per Kw.

nokia69

Deleted User wrote: »

So if we want the ESB to charge per Kwh then we're asking that when we have 3 times the range to pay 3 times as much ?

So when people flock to electric in the future and pay per kwh and they say it's expensive, do we tell them Eah, well, we were responsible for this because we went to national radio and the Newspapers to get the ESb to charge us per Kwh .

I think people are missing the "bigger" picture here.

I don't think that makes much sense

a person with a 200 mile EV may almost never even use the public network, so they are less lightly to pay the 17 per month sub but they would have no problem paying a higher price per Kwh once or twice a year

a simple charge per Kwh is what most people want

Hector Mildew

Villain wrote: »

Hi All, as I have mentioned previously I have a meeting scheduled with Gareth Davis head of ESB ecars next week.

Rather than another thread full of the same issues and also to allow people to make comments privately please feel free to PM with any points you would like me to raise, especially points that relate to your specific use cases.

I intend on printing the petition and bringing it with me also which will include all those comments. I am not a member of any association and I don't pretend to speak for all I scheduled the meeting for my own interests but I am happy to relay points people want me to raise.

Just a thought.. As an alternative to challenging the monthly infrastructure charge, how about trying to get the ESB onside in a campaign against motor tax on EVs? (assuming that there is a chance that it could succeed).

Motor tax pays for lots of things but I doubt charging infrasctrure is one of them. Would electric drivers would be happier to pay a mandontary monthly charging fee in place of motor tax (like the Netherlands)?

thierry14

Hector Mildew wrote: »

That makes a lot of sense. Assuming that in a couple of years 60 Kw can be charge from 0-80% in 30 minutes, it would cost €9 at 30c per min or over €14 at 30c per Kw.

It makes no sense at all.

It would be like every mobile operator in the world dropping data charges and charging you for how long you are on the Internet 😀

It's a joke.

Imagine if Vodafone charged you per minute to browse boards.ie on your mobile ☺

As poster above said, its pay per kwh

Nothing else

Hector Mildew

thierry14 wrote: »

It makes no sense at all.

It would be like every mobile operator in the world dropping data charges and charging you for how long you are on the Internet 😀

It's a joke.

Imagine if Vodafone charged you per minute to browse boards.ie on your mobile ☺

As poster above said, its pay per kwh

Nothing else

If I was using a 56K modem it would be expensive, on a 1Gb fibre connection it would barely register on my bill.. On mobile the same would apply for per minute GPRS vs 4G

thierry14

Hector Mildew wrote: »

If I was using a 56K modem it would be expensive, on a 1Gb fibre connection it would barely register on my bill.. On mobile the same would apply for per minute GPRS vs 4G

Do you want the same for your car?

Hector Mildew

thierry14 wrote: »

Do you want the same for your car?

If the charge for 1 minute use or 1Kwh are both the same (say 30c) and I could 'download' 60 Kwh in 30 minutes then paying per minute is half the cost of paying per Kwh, so yes I'd prefer that.

thierry14

Hector Mildew wrote: »

That makes a lot of sense. Assuming that in a couple of years 60 Kw can be charge from 0-80% in 30 minutes, it would cost €9 at 30c per min or over €14 at 30c per Kw.

Do you believe it will be setup to go below current household price of 18cent per Kw when charging?

I don't think the Esb would let that be an option

Hector Mildew

thierry14 wrote: »

Do you believe it will be setup to go below current household price of 18cent per Kw when charging?

I don't think the Esb would let that be an option

No, but I wouldn't assume that a per Kwh rate would be set at the domestic rate either.

Think about it again,

Charge twice as fast for the same time, twice the range or just over twice for the same we pay now ??? still want to pay per Kwh ?

The ESb can only bill what the regulator will allow, so if people think this will be cheaper then go ahead, don't say I didn't warn ye.

Billing per Kwh isn't easy and it's not like a mobile plan, the regulator sets the rates not the ESB because they can't even sell the electricity in the first place !

This is why pressing to be billed per Kwh is going to open a whole can of worms !

Jaketherake

Deleted User wrote: »

Think about it again,

Charge twice as fast for the same time, twice the range or just over twice for the same we pay now ??? still want to pay per Kwh ?

The ESb can only bill what the regulator will allow, so if people think this will be cheaper then go ahead, don't say I didn't warn ye.

Billing per Kwh isn't easy and it's not like a mobile plan, the regulator sets the rates not the ESB because they can't even sell the electricity in the first place !

This is why pressing to be billed per Kwh is going to open a whole can of worms !

I would have thought per Kwh you take what you need.
I want 10Kwh I disconnect when I get 10Kwh. doesnt matter how long it takes. If I want to leave it plugged in til it fills up then thats my lookout.
What could be simpler?

Subscription and charging people for time on top of that when they all take charges at different rates is a joke and unfair.

Im just waiting for the bombshell that you eventually will be unable to charge a car from a normal socket. When you get your special charger connected it goes onto a new tarriff which is double the day rate. To pay for the fuel duty lost on petrol. And if you dont want it you cant connect to a household supply. Dont say i didnt warn ye. The seal has been broken.

Villain

Deleted User wrote: »

Think about it again,

Charge twice as fast for the same time, twice the range or just over twice for the same we pay now ??? still want to pay per Kwh ?

The ESb can only bill what the regulator will allow, so if people think this will be cheaper then go ahead, don't say I didn't warn ye.

Billing per Kwh isn't easy and it's not like a mobile plan, the regulator sets the rates not the ESB because they can't even sell the electricity in the first place !

This is why pressing to be billed per Kwh is going to open a whole can of worms !

That can of worms is called competition as opposed to the current monopoly!!