ESB public charging plans

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

Remember folks, we're helping to improve the infrastructure so that it's suitable for mass adoption to electric, our aim is to encourage more people to electric. And we think now that these charges by the ESb will make EV driving expensive correct ? I am sure it will for people that depend soely on Public chargers however, I certainly would not have an EV at this time with no home charging, theis needs to be addressed at a political level but thhis Government are not interested so people need to get on to their TD's and get the ball rolling if indeed ye really do want to encourage people to electric.

So if we want the ESB to charge per Kwh then we're asking that when we have 3 times the range to pay 3 times as much ?

So when people flock to electric in the future and pay per kwh and they say it's expensive, do we tell them Eah, well, we were responsible for this because we went to national radio and the Newspapers to get the ESb to charge us per Kwh .

I think people are missing the "bigger" picture here.

This all depends on how many 100 Kw+ chargers become available when the 60+ kwh batteries arrive and if they can charge at 100 Kw but faster charging is the future but if you have 100 Kw charging you will get just over twice the range for the same time on the charger because you're charging twice as fast .

Of course if you charge at the same 50Kw charger then you will pay a lot more, so this all depends on 100 Kw charging and if the ESB don't make money from this then we risk the network being sold to god know's who who will charge us God knows what and not only that but future expansion will be slow and the roll out of 100 kw chargers.

So this is something we really need to consider, do we really want to peruse the ESB to bill per Kwh ? I guarantee, it won't be cheap !

This must be the most confused appeasement logic I've ever read.

The Esb can just charge you more per minute if the 100kw ever appeared.

God this is just nonsense logic mad _Neville_chamberlin_lad, and you have made it clear you don't use fcps anyway

Pay as you use in kWh is the best and most equitable method

BoatMad

By the way , who is the spokesperson for the IVOA , the Indo wants to run a story on this.

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

This must be the most confused appeasement logic I've ever read.

The Esb can just charge you more per minute if the 100kw ever appeared.

God this is just nonsense logic mad _Neville_chamberlin_lad, and you have made it clear you don't use fcps anyway

Pay as you use in kWh is the best and most equitable method

Sure they can charge what they like. But they can't charge per Kwh, or at least it's not an easy option to them at this time. But one advantage of KWh billing is that it's controlled by the regulator.

No I use the standard street chargers much more, the fast chargers are inconvenient, I just get back to the car and drive off, no looking for DC.

As it stands now the best option is bill per minute but at less than 30 C.

Hector Mildew

BoatMad wrote: »

This must be the most confused appeasement logic I've ever read.

The Esb can just charge you more per minute if the 100kw ever appeared.

God this is just nonsense logic mad _Neville_chamberlin_lad, and you have made it clear you don't use fcps anyway

Pay as you use in kWh is the best and most equitable method

I'm still trying to figure out the pros and cons of charging for time vs per kW..

My understanding is that as the charge progresses, the power supplied by the charger tapers off. So taking a 1 hour charging session as an example, 80% of the charge would be supplied in the first 30 minutes, with the remaining 20% taking the same time again. If that's correct then a per minute charge seems sensible as it would encurage users to disconnect after the first 30 minutes, freeing up chargers for other users.

While appearing fairer, charging per kW could be more costly in terms of time spent by users waiting for a charger to become free (or from a infrastructure providers perscpective, needing providing more chargers to meet demand)

Does that make any sense?

Hector Mildew

Villain wrote: »

That can of worms is called competition as opposed to the current monopoly!!

Here's an article by an EV driver in the UK calling for regulation of the charging network there to address similiar ssues raised here -

https://transportevolved.com/2015/04/01/opinion-why-electric-car-charging-networks-need-impartial-third-party-regulation-or-face-collapse/

It doesn't look like competition in their market has improved things, hopefully we'll do it better here.

Villain

One simple thing about billing per Kw is that it is what people are used to i.e. Paying for actual usage so when people want to look at making the switch they can calculate easily what the costs would be and compare. Per minute on FCPs is useless they charge at different rates we have proof of this.

If the charging points along with the GPRS connections can't handle per Kw billing then they may just wait until they can.

nokia69

Hector Mildew wrote: »

I'm still trying to figure out the pros and cons of charging for time vs per kW..

once a car reaches 100% charge there does need to be a time charge, I think most will agree with that

when charging for power it should only be a kWh charge, but after that a parking or time charge is a good idea

Hector Mildew

nokia69 wrote: »

once a car reaches 100% charge there does need to be a time charge, I think most will agree with that

when charging for power it should only be a kWh charge, but after that a parking or time charge is a good idea

I agree, charge more for inefficient use of a charger/ charging space. But in the case of in demand fast chargers going above 80% is, for current gen evs at least, also an inefficient use of the resource as it takes almost as long again. A per minute charge is a simple way to deal with that.

Think about this.

30 c min for 30 mins is 9 euro's add 10 mins to a cold battery is 12 Euro's.

When the 100 Kw chargers appear, 30 mins will get about 160-170 miles for the same cost but the cost to fill a 60 kwh at the current chargers would be 3 times as much, maybe a bit less depending on the battery.

I can't see billing per Kwh work because how can ESB networks sell electricity to the consumer ? this would be Electric Ireland, and they don't own the charging network !

If the regulator sets the rates how would that work out for us ? 20 c/kwh as we pay at home ?

pwurple

Deleted User wrote: »

I can't see billing per Kwh work because how can ESB networks sell electricity to the consumer ? this would be Electric Ireland, and they don't own the charging network !

If the regulator sets the rates how would that work out for us ? 20 c/kwh as we pay at home ?

With respect mad_lad, that's just bureaucracy rather than an actual reason not to charge by the kWh. Esb sell electricity wholesale, all that's required is a division/company to sell to the EV consumer. It's a paperwork exercise.

I think selling it by the minute is far too frustrating for consumers.

-Faster vs slower charge points will make for very angry customers.

-Tapering on the charging will frustrate people no end. I don't want that kind of clock watching stress.

-Older cars will charge slower, which will cause them to be more expensive to charge for the same energy with this model. As a bit of an mini-environmentalist, I see no reason to push people to buy newer vehicles when the one they have meets their needs. One of the selling points for me on an EV was that it has no engine wear aspect, and so theoretically should have a much longer lifespan than an old fashioned engined car. I know that others will always want the shiniest model available, but from an emissions and resources perspective there is no reason to push EV upgrades.

-if (and it's a big if with this kind of management!)... if EV's suddenly take off like in California, where 25% of new sales are electric, then there will be pressure on the network. We already see it in the greater Dublin area afaik. With a per-minute mechanism in place, the natural response to pressure on those FCP's will be to increase the price charged per minute in order to get a faster turnover of people at them.

glideslope

I have had a Leaf since March of this year. My wife has a diesel car as we both work and public transportation is not an option for either of us. I use the Leaf for my short commute (30 mins) to and from work and for trips to the shops and into town. For longer trips of greater than 60 km I use the diesel. I charge at home so I rarely use the public chargers. I never worry about range as I leave the house every day with enough charge to meet two days worth of my driving needs.

My case may not be typical but it is an example of where an EV can work very well. I don't have a night meter so I am charging the Leaf on the normal rate and estimate it costs me in the region of €350 pa in electricity costs for about 13,000km. It's a saving over diesel for sure.

The current generation of affordable EVs cannot meet the range requirements of a typical user who needs to replace their primary car. I have tried driving long distance in the Leaf and while it is possible it is just too inconvenient. This ESB charging scheme, while necessary to support the network, will put a lot of people off buying electric. But if your use case is similar to mine then you don't need to deal with this charging scheme and an EV may work for you.

Hector Mildew

pwurple wrote: »

-Older cars will charge slower, which will cause them to be more expensive to charge for the same energy with this model. As a bit of an mini-environmentalist, I see no reason to push people to buy newer vehicles when the one they have meets their needs. One of the selling points for me on an EV was that it has no engine wear aspect, and so theoretically should have a much longer lifespan than an old fashioned engined car. I know that others will always want the shiniest model available, but from an emissions and resources perspective there is no reason to push EV upgrades.

On this, what happens as the battery ages compared to a new battery - does it draw less power over a longer time period or is it that less of the power drawn is absorbed by the battery?

thierry14

Jaketherake wrote: »

Im just waiting for the bombshell that you eventually will be unable to charge a car from a normal socket. When you get your special charger connected it goes onto a new tarriff which is double the day rate. To pay for the fuel duty lost on petrol. And if you dont want it you cant connect to a household supply. Dont say i didnt warn ye. The seal has been broken.

Can the Esb legally do this?

If they can, they will.

thierry14

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Think about this.

30 c min for 30 mins is 9 euro's add 10 mins to a cold battery is 12 Euro's.

When the 100 Kw chargers appear, 30 mins will get about 160-170 miles for the same cost but the cost to fill a 60 kwh at the current chargers would be 3 times as much, maybe a bit less depending on the battery.

Current Ev owners should just hand back the keys if this is the case.

They should be rewarded, not punished.

Hector Mildew

thierry14 wrote: »

Can the Esb legally do this?

If they can, they will.

The EU are against traffic shaping by ISPs and mobile providers so I doubt that the same behaviour by electricity suppliers would be tollerated.

Jaketherake

thierry14 wrote: »

Can the Esb legally do this?

If they can, they will.

Not the ESB.
The government - to replace tax revenue lost in petrol and diesel, which is a BIG hole to fill.

No need to worry about it until EV ownership takes off, which looks like it will be going backwards now.

bk

So doing the maths, this makes using FCP's more expensive then Diesel/Petrol!

A 80% FCP charge takes about 30 minutes, costs €9 and gives you about 100km range. (going by DrPhilG numbers).

By comparison 100km of petrol/diesel for a petrol hybrid or small Diesel [1] costs about €6.70

The FCP's are almost 30% more expensive then petrol/diesel and that is not including the €17 subscription!!!

That is simply madness and will simply kill the thought of buying a BEV for the vast majority of people [2]

[1] Comparing to a Auris Hybrid or Golf, cars of a similar size and cost of a Leaf.

[2] It can still be economical for people who commute more the 25 km a day, but don't use FCP's (don't take long distance journeys or have a second car for such journeys). But I think that is a very small niche and certainly won't help develop the EV market at all.

Benny_Cake

glideslope wrote: »

The current generation of affordable EVs cannot meet the range requirements of a typical user who needs to replace their primary car. I have tried driving long distance in the Leaf and while it is possible it is just too inconvenient. This ESB charging scheme, while necessary to support the network, will put a lot of people off buying electric. But if your use case is similar to mine then you don't need to deal with this charging scheme and an EV may work for you.

I'd largely agree with this but I'd disagree that a Nissan Leaf or Renault Zoe can't be used as a primary car. I'd be someone who uses the car as a commuting vehicle and takes an occasional longer journey. I have never been in a position where I was unable to make a journey, sure, it takes a little planning but that doesn't bother me. The Leaf is our only car. I'd imagine that ESB's charging scheme may put off those with usage patterns such as mine from purchasing - I'll probably still be saving some money but not enough to justify it.

DrPhilG

Hector Mildew wrote: »

That makes a lot of sense. Assuming that in a couple of years 60 Kw can be charge from 0-80% in 30 minutes, it would cost €9 at 30c per min or over €14 at 30c per Kw.

But when we reach the point of having 60kwh batteries the frequency of actually having to use FCPs will be slashed.

EDIT, what he/she said...

nokia69 wrote: »

I don't think that makes much sense

a person with a 200 mile EV may almost never even use the public network, so they are less lightly to pay the 17 per month sub but they would have no problem paying a higher price per Kwh once or twice a year

a simple charge per Kwh is what most people want

Personally speaking, I use FCPs maybe twice a week. If I had a 60kwh battery I would never need to. Even if I drive to Belfast, which would need 2-3 charges for a return trip, I could get away with a quick 10 minute top up.

If I'm only using a fast charger a few times a year I'd have no problem spending €14 each time as it would only add up to maybe €60 a year, not including any subscription.

Currently I'm probably going to be spending that amount per month.

Hector Mildew

DrPhilG wrote: »

But when we reach the point of having 60kwh batteries the frequency of actually having to use FCPs will be slashed.

Personally speaking, I use FCPs maybe twice a week. If I had a 60kwh battery I would never need to. Even if I drive to Belfast, which would need 2-3 charges for a return trip, I could get away with a quick 10 minute top up.

If I'm only using a fast charger a few times a year I'd have no problem spending €14 each time as it would only add up to maybe €60 a year, not including any subscription.

Currently I'm probably going to be spending that amount per month.

You also need to factor in longer home charging times for a 60kWh battery - allowing 8 hours per 24kWh on a 16amp charger. I think your drives would still require FCP top-ups for longer journeys (particularly the return leg).

The €17pm is what will put most potential EV buyers off as it effectively puts electric cars in the 'C' motor tax band (€120 motor tax + €204 ESB) which makes up just under 2.7% of cars sold so far this year.

nokia69

Hector Mildew wrote: »

You also need to factor in longer home charging times for a 60kWh battery - allowing 8 hours per 24kWh on a 16amp charger. I think your drives would still require FCP top-ups for longer journeys (particularly the return leg).

only a problem if the battery is close to empty, if someone has a 60kWh battery most of the time they will drive the same as people with a 30kWh battery

k123456

Hi I dont have an ELV,

The imminent charges for public charging , seem regressive , however I could prob avoid these by charging from home

Home charges

Approx Home much is it to charge overnight from home please, using night saver or without night saver (for a 11 or 12 Leaf)

from reading thru this forum, cheaper on night saver, is there a standing charge or similar to have a night saver rate

Assuming I get home charger installed independently , will ESB, Elec Ireland etc, be aware I am charging an ELV, : reason I ask this I find it concerning, the authorities can introduce/increase charges without any public consulation for ELV users

I have two outdoor sockets, near to where a prospective ELV would fit, is there any disadvantage to using a granny cable, instead of a standard wall mounted home charger


Thanks

DrPhilG

Hector Mildew wrote: »

You also need to factor in longer home charging times for a 60kWh battery - allowing 8 hours per 24kWh on a 16amp charger. I think your drives would still require FCP top-ups for longer journeys (particularly the return leg).

I live 80 miles from Belfast.

I get about 85 miles on a full charge, meaning that technically I could reach Belfast without stopping. However I normally stop half way at the Glenshane Pass FCP and top back up to 80%. Full charge in Belfast and the same mid way stop coming home.

With a 210 mile range in a 60kwh car I could do the round trip and still have 40 miles of wiggle room before needing to charge.

Also, I have a 32a home charger.

Hector Mildew

DrPhilG wrote: »

I live 80 miles from Belfast.

I get about 85 miles on a full charge, meaning that technically I could reach Belfast without stopping. However I normally stop half way at the Glenshane Pass FCP and top back up to 80%. Full charge in Belfast and the same mid way stop coming home.

With a 210 mile range in a 60kwh car I could do the round trip and still have 40 miles of wiggle room before needing to charge.

Also, I have a 32a home charger.

Ah ok, I assumed you were further away when you said 2-3 fast charge. Do you find the 32a charger good based on your current usage?

glideslope

glideslope wrote: »

I have had a Leaf since March of this year. My wife has a diesel car as we both work and public transportation is not an option for either of us. I use the Leaf for my short commute (30 mins) to and from work and for trips to the shops and into town. For longer trips of greater than 60 km I use the diesel. I charge at home so I rarely use the public chargers. I never worry about range as I leave the house every day with enough charge to meet two days worth of my driving needs.

My case may not be typical but it is an example of where an EV can work very well. I don't have a night meter so I am charging the Leaf on the normal rate and estimate it costs me in the region of €350 pa in electricity costs for about 13,000km. It's a saving over diesel for sure.

The current generation of affordable EVs cannot meet the range requirements of a typical user who needs to replace their primary car. I have tried driving long distance in the Leaf and while it is possible it is just too inconvenient. This ESB charging scheme, while necessary to support the network, will put a lot of people off buying electric. But if your use case is similar to mine then you don't need to deal with this charging scheme and an EV may work for you.

Yes this is what I've being trying to get through to people, I commute 134 Kms and if I were to work regular 9-5 it would and use the fast charger to get me home again for 10 mins I would pay 81 a month including the 17 PM charge, and for the fast charger and home electricity, Not bad for 670 Kms a week if you ask me or 2,680 Kms a month. Diesel would cost 180-200 PM !

We also take the diesel for the really long trips.

I absolutely agree that that there should be a PAYG option. For people like me who rarely need the fast chargers.

If people are doing regular Dublin to Cork trips or Dublin to Galway I would be saying wait until leaf II or whatever is around in just over 2 years. Or borrow an ICE car.

If you got a 100 Kw charger then you get twice the range in the same time for the 30 C/minute !

30 c/min is a bit extreme, 15 C/min would do.

thierry14

thierry14 wrote: »

Current Ev owners should just hand back the keys if this is the case.

They should be rewarded, not punished.

If they want then sure, why not, guess they won;t notice all the 50-70 euro's going into the tank because there is no bill coming through the door !

pwurple

pwurple wrote: »

With respect mad_lad, that's just bureaucracy rather than an actual reason not to charge by the kWh. Esb sell electricity wholesale, all that's required is a division/company to sell to the EV consumer. It's a paperwork exercise.

I think selling it by the minute is far too frustrating for consumers.

-Faster vs slower charge points will make for very angry customers.

-Tapering on the charging will frustrate people no end. I don't want that kind of clock watching stress.

-Older cars will charge slower, which will cause them to be more expensive to charge for the same energy with this model. As a bit of an mini-environmentalist, I see no reason to push people to buy newer vehicles when the one they have meets their needs. One of the selling points for me on an EV was that it has no engine wear aspect, and so theoretically should have a much longer lifespan than an old fashioned engined car. I know that others will always want the shiniest model available, but from an emissions and resources perspective there is no reason to push EV upgrades.

-if (and it's a big if with this kind of management!)... if EV's suddenly take off like in California, where 25% of new sales are electric, then there will be pressure on the network. We already see it in the greater Dublin area afaik. With a per-minute mechanism in place, the natural response to pressure on those FCP's will be to increase the price charged per minute in order to get a faster turnover of people at them.

You're asking that ESB Networks set up an additional company to be able to bill people per Kwh ? that's mental that cost will be reflected in the Kwh cost I guarantee you it won't be cheaper reflected by a higher monthly cost.

Hector Mildew

Hector Mildew wrote: »

On this, what happens as the battery ages compared to a new battery - does it draw less power over a longer time period or is it that less of the power drawn is absorbed by the battery?

Yes it does draw less power as it ages, and 2011-2013 users will be effected more by this, the 141+ has a far better battery.

Some people are convinced that the ESB are reducing the power of some chargers and while I have no idea if this is the case I am more convinced what they're seeing is the effects of an ageing battery and a colder battery, even if it still shows 12 bars that's no indication of the overall health, it could be just a few % shy of loosing the first bar.

If people look at their manuals it will show what time the battery should take to charge at a particular battery temp bar and this doesn't even reflect an ageing battery, the other side of an ageing battery is that as it ages it gets smaller by it's lack of ability to store the same energy, so what once was a 24 kwh battery now could be 18 etc so the effects of ageing in this circumstances might not be so noticeable if that makes sense.

DrPhilG

Hector Mildew wrote: »

Ah ok, I assumed you were further away when you said 2-3 fast charge.

Donegal. Technically I could do Belfast on one trip but for handiness I would top up at the Glenshane. If it worked out I would fill up at a standard charger in Belfast, if I didn't have time I'd probably FCP again at Junction 1. Then the Glenshane stop again on the way home. So 2-3 charges. To be honest I'd still try to find a standard charge in the middle even if I had a 60kwh battery to make things easier.

Hector Mildew wrote: »

Do you find the 32a charger good based on your current usage?

It's way more than I need on my current usage. I charge at home overnight mostly, only the occasional time when I get home at half 5 and then need to go somewhere at 8ish I might charge a few hours in the evening.

I have the 6.6kw charger so I'm never stuck for time on home charging.

I bought second hand so didn't have any option for home charger from the ESB, so I had to buy my own. I went for an untethered 32a charger for future proofing regarding bigger batteries, different charger types etc.

My plan now is the same as it was when I bought the Leaf in June. Drive it for 4 years, put the cash saved in comparison to my old diesel into a savings account. After 4 years I'll have €8000 (would have been €10k, thanks ESB) which I will put towards my next car. Things may change between now and then in terms of available EVs but currently I'm thinking that if the 60kwh Leaf arrives in 2018, then there will be some 1 year old versions floating around in 2019 for me to snap up.