ESB public charging plans

DrPhilG

Deleted User wrote: »

Some people are convinced that the ESB are reducing the power of some chargers and while I have no idea if this is the case I am more convinced what they're seeing is the effects of an ageing battery and a colder battery

I compared times with a guy on facebook a few days ago. He used a FCP and gained 56%, from 22-78%, and it took him 37 minutes.

The same day I gained 68%, from 12-80% in just 31 minutes.

The temperature in my location was 13 degrees. Not sure what his temperature or actual kwh amount was but that's a pretty huge difference for 2 FCPs. I gained 12% more than he did in 6 less minutes.

My car is a 141, his is a 151.

DrPhilG

DrPhilG wrote: »

I compared times with a guy on facebook a few days ago. He used a FCP and gained 56%, from 22-78%, and it took him 37 minutes.

The same day I gained 68%, from 12-80% in just 31 minutes.

The temperature in my location was 13 degrees. Not sure what his temperature or actual kwh amount was but that's a pretty huge difference for 2 FCPs. I gained 12% more than he did in 6 less minutes.

My car is a 141, his is a 151.

There's no way to tell the differences in the actual battery temps though. And the fact you started with a lower state of charge means the current is higher going into the battery.

DrPhilG

Deleted User wrote: »

There's no way to tell the differences in the actual battery temps though. And the fact you started with a lower state of charge means the current is higher going into the battery.

A few % I would accept that explanation.

12% more, 6 minutes less is far too big of a brushed off like that.

One one of my days off I will do an experiment at the Carlow QC and log the charging times and power, It's interesting.

DrPhilG

DrPhilG wrote: »

A few % I would accept that explanation.

12% more, 6 minutes less is far too big of a brushed off like that.

I don't think it is especially if your battery was warmer, going by the battery temp bars isn't a good measurement of temps, so if you have 5 bars and so had he, there is a large variance that the battery bars actually don't make much sense.

A good test will be the Carlow QC because I know it can output to the battery about 47-48 Kw for a few moments starting off.

DrPhilG

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't think it is especially if your battery was warmer, going by the battery temp bars isn't a good measurement of temps, so if you have 5 bars and so had he, there is a large variance that the battery bars actually don't make much sense.

My battery temperature was at 5 bars when I started.

DrPhilG

DrPhilG wrote: »

My battery temperature was at 5 bars when I started.

5 bars can be anything from -3 - 27 Deg C

4 bars can be -5 - 15 deg C.

Optimum temp is around 20 deg c and it will charge slightly faster above this. Until about I think 30 degrees, the details are in the manual.

From the Manual.

Download here section CH-8 Charging

[URL="file:///C:/Users/v-maobyr/Downloads/16771.pdf"]file:///C:/Users/v-maobyr/Downloads/16771.pdf[/URL]

Note that this is a new battery


charge the Li-ion battery to 80%. From Low battery warning

Li-ion battery
temperature gauge
Estimated charge
time

A 3 or fewer segments
illuminated
More than approximately
90 minutes

B 4-5 segments illuminated
Approximately 30-90
minutes

C 6-7 segments illuminated
Approximately 30
minutes

D 8-9 segments illuminated
Approximately 30-60
minutes

E 10 or more segments
illuminated
More than approximately
60 minutes

thierry14

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If they want then sure, why not, guess they won;t notice all the 50-70 euro's going into the tank because there is no bill coming through the door !

How will they be saving so much money in current gen EV?

Forget about yourself for a minute

We know your grand, you have your work charger, your fine, your a smart guy unaffected by these changes.

If u need to travel long distance you will take your diesel, we should all be so privileged.

Your average current gen EV owners will have to use fast chargers, unless they want they want to be restricted to 100km

They will be paying 25% more than a modern diesel to use them

They have been screwed big time

Why can't u admit it?

Why are u defending this?

I find your smugness very irritating!

It doesn't affect you, so you don't give a ****.

thierry14

thierry14 wrote: »

How will they be saving so much money in current gen EV?

Forget about yourself for a minute

We know your grand, you have your work charger, your fine, your a smart guy unaffected by these changes.

If u need to travel long distance you will take your diesel, we should all be so privileged.

Your average current gen EV owners will have to use fast chargers, unless they want they want to be restricted to 100km

They will be paying 25% more than a modern diesel to use them

They have been screwed big time

Why can't u admit it?

Why are u defending this?

I find your smugness very irritating!

It doesn't affect you, so you don't give a ****.

I said even if people are paying the same as diesel for a few long trips the "majority" of charging will be done form home, saving a lot more than diesel.

If you only use the public chargers then this will be different when the 30 c/min fee applies, if you do lots of long trips where it will cost as much as diesel you need to add up the over all cost in the year to see if it works out the same or much cheaper than diesel but automatically people are saying the long trips will cost the same so why bother but it's the total driving people should calculate.

I don't appreciate the tone I get off people sometimes, considering the crap I had to endure form people in the motors section for a few years before we got the Ev section here on boards, but increasingly a lot more the tone from people here is becoming intolerable.

I have done a lot for the Ev community in trying to promote Electric cars the last 5 years and well over 5,000 posts alone here on boards not to mention the time consumption and the research involved in assuring I give out the most accurate information I can, not to mention all the PM's I get for advice and sometimes I get treated with such content and aggression. I get little appreciation and more crap form people.

Don't talk to me about irritating !

samih

While driving home from Kerry yesterday I kept a close eye on charging times and got following results:

Started at Killarney where I topped from 58-100 within 2 hours parked there.

The first stop was at Mallow for 45 minutes 49-67. The charger was standing in a puddle of water and seemed pretty slow.

The first FCP was in Cashel which charged 3-88 in 35 mins/€10.50. I needed as much charge as much as possible to make it to the next planned charger 101 km away. I overstayed my welcome as nobody was looking to charge after us.

Finally, at junction 14 I charged for another 30 minutes. The charge 5-78 would have cost 9 yoyo although I would have made it home charging for 20 minutes instead. Again nobody was waiting so I stayed.

Leaf mk 1.5 charges rather slowly. This once off trip to Kerry would have added 25.50 (3 * FCP) + 16.99 + initial charge of 1.50 i.e. 44 yoyo for the current monthly electricity cost of of €30.

So my past month's 2200 km would have cost me something between 70 to 75 yoyos calculated using post April pricing.

Hector Mildew

samih wrote: »

While driving home from Kerry yesterday I kept a close eye on charging times and got following results:

Started at Killarney where I topped from 58-100 within 2 hours parked there.

The first stop was at Mallow for 45 minutes 49-67. The charger was standing in a puddle of water and seemed pretty slow.

The first FCP was in Cashel which charged 3-88 in 35 mins/€10.50. I needed as much charge as much as possible to make it to the next planned charger 101 km away. I overstayed my welcome as nobody was looking to charge after us.

Finally, at junction 14 I charged for another 30 minutes. The charge 5-78 would have cost 9 yoyo although I would have made it home charging for 20 minutes instead. Again nobody was waiting so I stayed.

Leaf mk 1.5 charges rather slowly. This once off trip to Kerry would have added 25.50 (3 * FCP) + 16.99 + initial charge of 1.50 i.e. 44 yoyo for the current monthly electricity cost of of €30.

So my past month's 2200 km would have cost me something between 70 to 75 yoyos calculated using post April pricing.

off the top of my head, diesel at 4.5l/100km would cost around €120, so a decent saving over the month.

I wouldn't like to have to sit through that much charging on a regular basis!

Padraig Mor

The more I think about these charges, the more ridiculous they seem. I think the solution is simple - you get charged at your 'normal' home rate by your own electricity supplier, Electric Ireland, Airtricity (or whoever) at the relevant day/night rate. No surcharge for FCPs - as I said before, once they're being charged for, the only people who will use them are those who NEED to use them. As for the ongoing infrastructure maintenance cost (and remember most of the chargers were paid for by Europe) - I don't think this should be borne directly by EV drivers, and instead should be spread as part of ESB's general ongoing costs. I mean, you don't have to put a coin in a meter to get street lamps to work do you? ESB don't come to your door asking for extra money each month if they upgrade your local substation. Don't forget, as some of the highest users of electricity, EV users are *already* contributing a larger share to the general infrastructure because we have larger bills!

September1

I personally like idea of charging per minute on FCPs, as it creates incentive for more efficient charging. Otherwise FCPs are stuck with people charging above 70% which is painfully slow.

Hector Mildew

Padraig Mor wrote: »

As for the ongoing infrastructure maintenance cost (and remember most of the chargers were paid for by Europe) - I don't think this should be borne directly by EV drivers, and instead should be spread as part of ESB's general ongoing costs. I mean, you don't have to put a coin in a meter to get street lamps to work do you?

Paid for by Europe means we paid for it. Domestic rates for charging sounds great but I doubt that would pay for maintenence and future development. I posted an article about the experience in the UK, where it seems no one takes responsibilty for keeping the system maintained. I'd prefer to pay a fair amount than be in that situation.

I think that infrastructure and maintenance should be funded by a (defined) proportion of motor tax, VRT, fuel exise duty, and carbon tax. A top up per month charge shouldn't be required and puts off prospective buyers. As for how charging should be charged, there are arguments for per minute and per kWh and per minute, but regardless it must be fair but also encourage efficient use of resources.

Public lighting is maintained by local councils and paid for by property and motor tax revenue.

Yawlboy

Padraig Mor wrote: »

I think the solution is simple - you get charged at your 'normal' home rate by your own electricity supplier, Electric Ireland, Airtricity (or whoever) at the relevant day/night rate.

Totally agree with you on this - maybe happy to pay a connection fee everytime you plug in of say 50c at a SCP and €1 at an FCP - your electricity supplier could issue you with a branded RFID card or you could buy a PAYG one with slightly higher rates.

Yawlboy

Interesting post on FB earlier:

Directive 2014/94/EU of the European Parliament and of the Council of 22 October 2014 on the deployment of alternative fuels infrastructure

Article 4 Section 9 - All recharging points accessible to the public shall also provide for the possibility for electric vehicle users to recharge on an ad hoc basis without entering into a contract with the electricity supplier or operator concerned.
10. Member States shall ensure that prices charged by the operators of recharging points accessible to the public are reasonable, easily and clearly comparable, transparent and non-discriminatory.

DrPhilG

September1 wrote: »

I personally like idea of charging per minute on FCPs, as it creates incentive for more efficient charging. Otherwise FCPs are stuck with people charging above 70% which is painfully slow.

To an extent I agree. But I think that the per minute charge should only come into effect after the car reaches the slowdown point of 80%.

Nobody would ever have any issue with someone charging to 80% if they're paying for it. But to charge beyond that point should incur an extra charge.

stesaurus

Personally i think the FCP should stop at 80% and you then move on to an SCP or continue on your way until the next FCP. I understand people sometimes need more than 80% but they can get that at a nearby SCP. Or better still just save themselves some time and find the next FCP so that they can charge again at the higher rates once their capacity has dipped again.

DrPhilG

s.welstead wrote: »

Personally i think the FCP should stop at 80% and you then move on to an SCP or continue on your way until the next FCP. I understand people sometimes need more than 80% but they can get that at a nearby SCP. Or better still just save themselves some time and find the next FCP so that they can charge again at the higher rates once their capacity has dipped again.

There have been times where is was easier for me to charge to 100% at a FCP rather than doing 2 shorter charges.

He difference is that I would let someone else jump in rather than make them wait for me to go to 100%, others would not.

So I think full charging at FCP should be allowed, but strongly discouraged by the use of a heavy fee above 80%.

DrPhilG

s.welstead wrote: »

Personally i think the FCP should stop at 80% and you then move on to an SCP or continue on your way until the next FCP. I understand people sometimes need more than 80% but they can get that at a nearby SCP. Or better still just save themselves some time and find the next FCP so that they can charge again at the higher rates once their capacity has dipped again.

There have been times where is was easier for me to charge to 100% at a FCP rather than doing 2 shorter charges.

The difference is that I would let someone else jump in rather than make them wait for me to go to 100%, others would not.

So I think full charging at FCP should be allowed, but strongly discouraged by the use of a heavy fee above 80%.

stesaurus

DrPhilG wrote: »

There have been times where is was easier for me to charge to 100% at a FCP rather than doing 2 shorter charges.

The difference is that I would let someone else jump in rather than make them wait for me to go to 100%, others would not.

So I think full charging at FCP should be allowed, but strongly discouraged by the use of a heavy fee above 80%.

It might have been easier but with a heavy charge would you still have bothered or just moved on? Heavy charge or stopping automatically at 80% should have the same effect for most users.
If you left it with a heavy charge you'd possibly end up with a novice user getting charged heavily without them realizing the situation. Stopping at 80% would remove that possibility.

DrPhilG

s.welstead wrote: »

If you left it with a heavy charge you'd possibly end up with a novice user getting charged heavily without them realizing the situation. Stopping at 80% would remove that possibility.

Not sure I understand the question there...

stesaurus

DrPhilG wrote: »

Not sure I understand the question there...

It's a statement, not a question. A new user comes along to a FCP and plugs in. They're nervous anyway trying to figure out what cable can go where and what the hell DC or AC means. They then charge past 80% sitting there until the car tells them it's done.
They do that for a few days and then get a whopping bill as they didn't know that
A. it's painfully slow after 80% and not very efficient use of their time and
B. that there is a massive surcharge after 80%.

Dealers are not going to drilling it into them about any surcharges above 80%. They'll keep quiet to make a sale.

stesaurus

s.welstead wrote: »

It might have been easier but with a heavy charge would you still have bothered or just moved on? Heavy charge or stopping automatically at 80% should have the same effect for most users.
If you left it with a heavy € charge you'd possibly end up with a novice user getting € charged heavily without them realizing the situation. Stopping at 80% would remove that possibility.

Just realised this is a bit confusing as charging could mean both monetary and electrical

pwurple

Deleted User wrote: »

You're asking that ESB Networks set up an additional company to be able to bill people per Kwh ? that's mental that cost will be reflected in the Kwh cost I guarantee you it won't be cheaper reflected by a higher monthly cost.

The ecars division already exists. Gavin or Gareth, or Gary or whoever is the head of it. I've registered companies, the cost is minimal. 500 euro fee.

Besides... There is the EU directive to comply with. How would they manage it otherwise?


Directive 2014/94/EU of the European Parliament and of the Council of 22 October 2014
Article 4 Section 9 - All recharging points accessible to the public shall also provide for the possibility for electric vehicle users to recharge on an ad hoc basis without entering into a contract with the electricity supplier or operator concerned.
10. Member States shall ensure that prices charged by the operators of recharging points accessible to the public are reasonable, easily and clearly comparable, transparent and non-discriminatory.


Per minute billing is not clearly comparable or transparent or non-discrimatory. It has to be kWh.

pwurple

pwurple wrote: »

The ecars division already exists. Gavin or Gareth, or Gary or whoever is the head of it. I've registered companies, the cost is minimal. 500 euro fee.

Besides... There is the EU directive to comply with. How would they manage it otherwise?


Directive 2014/94/EU of the European Parliament and of the Council of 22 October 2014
Article 4 Section 9 - All recharging points accessible to the public shall also provide for the possibility for electric vehicle users to recharge on an ad hoc basis without entering into a contract with the electricity supplier or operator concerned.
10. Member States shall ensure that prices charged by the operators of recharging points accessible to the public are reasonable, easily and clearly comparable, transparent and non-discriminatory.


Per minute billing is not clearly comparable or transparent or non-discrimatory. It has to be kWh.

The E.U directive doesn't look to me that they must bill per Kwh ?

If they can use E-cars to bill per Kwh what's to stop them increasing the monthly charge ?

Villain

Deleted User wrote: »

The E.U directive doesn't look to me that they must bill per Kwh ?

If they can use E-cars to bill per Kwh what's to stop them increasing the monthly charge ?

The directive states they must allow ad-hoc access without a contract but it doesn't come into force until November next year.

pwurple

Per minute billing would be both discriminatory and non-transparent. Different cars will charge at different rates (discriminatory), and cars will charge at different rates at various battery temps, state of charge etc (non-transparent).

They can increase the monthly charge away, but who will pay an exorbitant charge when there is another option.