ESB public charging plans

heliguyheliguy

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm not "pro ESB" I'm just trying to understand if they really are breeching any directive.

The per monthly charge doesn't prevent using the Network Ad-Hoc, that is , for it's intended purpose, and it isn't a contract.

A 30 day contract is still a contract under any legal definition.

As long as ev's charge at different rates a per minute charge discriminates against slower charge rates.

30 cent per minute could be up to 10 x the going rate per kwh this is neither reasonable nor clearly comparable.

(clearly comparable means work it out in your head on the side of the road the first time you pull up to the station)


It is clear that the directive is intended to facilitate the uptake of electric vehicles hence any interpretation of the directive that attempts to circumvent this purpose contravenes the directive.

Firblog

Deleted User wrote: »

The per monthly charge doesn't prevent using the Network Ad-Hoc, that is , for it's intended purpose, and it isn't a contract.

I would take ad-hoc to mean that it should be available for use the same way we use petrol stations, or used to use telephone kiosks, no up front payment, pay for just what you use.

I was thinking - prior to the announcement by the ESB - of buying a Leaf, but have been well put off since; however saw this ex demo on offer, which seems to be a very good price; why such a discount of a new one? Have the prices of 2nd hand fallen already?

Villain

Firblog wrote: »

I would take ad-hoc to mean that it should be available for use the same way we use petrol stations, or used to use telephone kiosks, no up front payment, pay for just what you use.

I was thinking - prior to the announcement by the ESB - of buying a Leaf, but have been well put off since; however saw this ex demo on offer, which seems to be a very good price; why such a discount of a new one? Have the prices of 2nd hand fallen already?

Looks like an SV model so good value alright, the resale values are rather poor tbh, I would hold out some hope of the ESB ecars seeing sense so I wouldn't be put off, unless you would need FCP charging a lot.

Leaf generally holds it's value better than most cars apart from the German cars based on carzone prices of "Irish" Leafs.

I doubt Nissan dealers are now flogging Leafs based on the ESB charges.

Firblog

Deleted User wrote: »

Leaf generally holds it's value better than most cars apart from the German cars based on carzone prices of "Irish" Leafs.

I doubt Nissan dealers are now flogging Leafs based on the ESB charges.

Well they seem to have reduced the price of the new battery upgrade by a grand all of a sudden

Firblog

Firblog wrote: »

Well they seem to have reduced the price of the new battery upgrade by a grand all of a sudden

Happy days, more range on your home cheap night rate electricity !

k123456

Deleted User wrote: »

Leaf generally holds it's value better than most cars apart from the German cars based on carzone prices of "Irish" Leafs.

Just out of interest what do you base that on

heliguyheliguy

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm not "pro ESB" I'm just trying to understand if they really are breeching any directive.

The per monthly charge doesn't prevent using the Network Ad-Hoc, that is , for it's intended purpose, and it isn't a contract.

http://www.nature.com/news/how-scientists-fool-themselves-and-how-they-can-stop-1.18517?WT.mc_id=FBK_NatureNews

k123456

k123456 wrote: »

Just out of interest what do you base that on

Carzone, Autotrader.

BoatMad

Villain wrote: »

Looks like an SV model so good value alright, the resale values are rather poor tbh, I would hold out some hope of the ESB ecars seeing sense so I wouldn't be put off, unless you would need FCP charging a lot.

I hope ESB sees sense too. or 2nd hand values will tank

boardzz

I was on the look out for a used Leaf the past month. I've gone off the idea now.
While the commute to work will be fine with charging at home, it's the other journeys I'll be making where I can't justify having the car.
The fast chargers will cost the same as diesel.
I could justify the sitting at a fast charger for half an hour at a time while I made a long journey because I was saving money over diesel, but now it doesn't make sense.
The normal day to day driving would be fine with a leaf, but I don't want to be paying money every month if I decide I need a public charger once or twice in the month.

boardzz

boardzz wrote: »

I was on the look out for a used Leaf the past month. I've gone off the idea now.
While the commute to work will be fine with charging at home, it's the other journeys I'll be making where I can't justify having the car.
The fast chargers will cost the same as diesel.
I could justify the sitting at a fast charger for half an hour at a time while I made a long journey because I was saving money over diesel, but now it doesn't make sense.
The normal day to day driving would be fine with a leaf, but I don't want to be paying money every month if I decide I need a public charger once or twice in the month.

So you think you won't save much over diesel for your "total" mileage or just don't want to pay to wait while you charge ?

Most People stand to save considerable money even with the ESb charges as I pointed out, to do my commute of 134 Kms 5 days a week it would cost me 81 Euro's including fast charging, the monthly charge and charging from home, diesel nearly 200 Euro's.

If I take a few trips a year that cost the same as diesel, big deal, still substantial savings on diesel.

I do agree the subscription is mad for light users of the network like myself.

I doubt very much much harm will be done by this because the majority of people are far from thinking about changing to EV.

Maybe the 60 Kwh leaf if it's not mad expensive will convince many more to go electric, 200-230 miles from your home ultra cheap night electricity is nothing to joke about !

pavelpro

Electric car owners will be given free electricity and have their tax and toll charges waived for five years under a plan set to be unveiled by Fianna Fail.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/no-road-tax-or-tolls-on-electric-cars-ff-plan-34201659.html

pavelpro

pavelpro wrote: »

Electric car owners will be given free electricity and have their tax and toll charges waived for five years under a plan set to be unveiled by Fianna Fail.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/no-road-tax-or-tolls-on-electric-cars-ff-plan-34201659.html

Don't know why they even mentioned this, because 99.5% of the Irish Public isn't interested in electric cars so I doubt this will encourage people to Vote for FF.

If the measures are implemented then people might change but who's going to vote based pre election BS ?

kawasaki1100

pavelpro wrote: »

Electric car owners will be given free electricity and have their tax and toll charges waived for five years under a plan set to be unveiled by Fianna Fail.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/no-road-tax-or-tolls-on-electric-cars-ff-plan-34201659.html

Ah Lads, do we really believe what Timmy Dooley from Fianna Fail is promising us regarding free electricity tax and tolls for electric cars. These lads from FF are still on planet Zog - ha ha.

kawasaki1100

kawasaki1100 wrote: »

Ah Lads, do we really believe what Timmy Dooley from Fianna Fail is promising us regarding free electricity tax and tolls for electric cars. These lads from FF are still on planet Zog - ha ha.

Don't believe it for one second.

So the Government are going to pay for all the millions of Euro's worth of tolls ? doubt it.

As I said, remove tolls and motor tax and then people might, but not until then.

People need a lot more educating and Dealers need to tell people ," well you really don't need the diesel to drive 30,000 Kms a year" !

Villain

kawasaki1100 wrote: »

Ah Lads, do we really believe what Timmy Dooley from Fianna Fail is promising us regarding free electricity tax and tolls for electric cars. These lads from FF are still on planet Zog - ha ha.

It's a cheap promise to make and is based on what worked on other countries so why not here?

To me this is a result of political pressure that has been applied in recent days, several TDs have been raising this and the Minister responsible has zero interest.

Villain

Villain wrote: »

It's a cheap promise to make and is based on what worked on other countries so why not here?

To me this is a result of political pressure that has been applied in recent days, several TDs have been raising this and the Minister responsible has zero interest.

The general interest in Ireland about Electric cars and air quality is pretty much 0.
Non of these things are important to most people however things like using bus lanes and free tolls would be far more attractive to people.

Even though the running costs are ultra low with electrics it's still not an incentive, most people will happily hand over 50-70 euro's a week for fuel.

Villain

Deleted User wrote: »

The general interest in Ireland about Electric cars and air quality is pretty much 0.
Non of these things are important to most people however things like using bus lanes and free tolls would be far more attractive to people.

Even though the running costs are ultra low with electrics it's still not an incentive, most people will happily hand over 50-70 euro's a week for fuel.

As I outlined to ESB ecars during the week you can't just rely on low running costs especially if those savings are being eaten into by the planned pricing changes.

You are not comparing like for like when you compare a diesel car to an electric car, the limited range is a huge factor and as shown by an EV driver yesterday in Cork you can end up on a flatbed truck pretty quickly when the charging infrastructure lets you down.

Adding extra incentives helps the argument though and has been shown to work in other countries, all TDs and even civil servants that I have spoken to seem to appreciate that the pricing model damages the Governments aims of increased EV sales, sadly the Minister and his advisors are totally ignorant to the issue.

Villain

Villain wrote: »

You are not comparing like for like when you compare a diesel car to an electric car, the limited range is a huge factor and as shown by an EV driver yesterday in Cork you can end up on a flatbed truck pretty quickly when the charging infrastructure lets you down.

It's only limited range if you're doing long distance driving regularly and if that's the case the current 75 mile range electrics are not suitable. My point is that if it costs a "Comparable" cost to diesel for a few trips a year so what ? the majority of charging is done at home.

I do agree the PM charge is stupid for light users like myself but in this case I would only sign up when I need to.

And I do admit for users who can't charge at home then this is expensive, however I would not advise anyone without home charging to get an Ev until the issue is solved at a political level so that someone can't be prevented from installing home charging.

In reality the majority of people will still charge at home and even if I were to use the Fast charger again to get home it would cost me 81 euro's PM including charging at home which is much cheaper than any diesel and this is to travel 134 Kms daily, however I could use more of that 25% I had left when I get home for less time on the charger.

Villain wrote: »

Adding extra incentives helps the argument though and has been shown to work in other countries, all TDs and even civil servants that I have spoken to seem to appreciate that the pricing model damages the Governments aims of increased EV sales, sadly the Minister and his advisors are totally ignorant to the issue.

There are already good incentives to buy electric, 5 K less VRT, 5 K Grant and free home charge point. The ultra low running costs mostly met by the home charger, lower motor tax and minimal maintenance.

The greatest difference in EV sales may come when Nissan introduce the 200-230 mile rang Leaf in late 2017, early 2018 ish. Dependant on cost. That's a large amount of range from your home charge point.

heliguyheliguy

The Norwegian Ev success story, A blueprint for other nations seeking to move into the 21st century.


https://youtu.be/WFHliGetDTc

Villain

Deleted User wrote: »

It's only limited range if you're doing long distance driving regularly and if that's the case the current 75 mile range electrics are not suitable. My point is that if it costs a "Comparable" cost to diesel for a few trips a year so what ? the majority of charging is done at home.

I do agree the PM charge is stupid for light users like myself but in this case I would only sign up when I need to.

And I do admit for users who can't charge at home then this is expensive, however I would not advise anyone without home charging to get an Ev until the issue is solved at a political level so that someone can't be prevented from installing home charging.

In reality the majority of people will still charge at home and even if I were to use the Fast charger again to get home it would cost me 81 euro's PM including charging at home which is much cheaper than any diesel and this is to travel 134 Kms daily, however I could use more of that 25% I had left when I get home for less time on the charger.

The thing is if you want EV's to become more main stream then those if and buts need to be become less and less and you need to stop putting a single use case forward because for every positive use case there are several negative ones.

Deleted User wrote: »

There are already good incentives to buy electric, 5 K less VRT, 5 K Grant and free home charge point. The ultra low running costs mostly met by the home charger, lower motor tax and minimal maintenance.

The greatest difference in EV sales may come when Nissan introduce the 200-230 mile rang Leaf in late 2017, early 2018 ish. Dependant on cost. That's a large amount of range from your home charge point.

Sorry but the incentives are not good enough and the proof of that is the low number sold here, if the incentives were good enough then the numbers would be much bigger.

We don't need to reinvent the wheel here, just look at those countries that have done it right and replicate it here, if you can't lead then you have to follow!

heliguyheliguy

Villain wrote: »

Sorry but the incentives are not good enough and the proof of that is the low number sold here, if the incentives were good enough then the numbers would be much bigger.

Excellent point, People , the government and the esb can argue their point all they want but the fact remains Ev uptake is shamefully low and if they truly want to see that change then they will have to accept that their thinking is flawed and move on. Their way has been tried and it is not working! Time for a change.

Free public charging until now had little effect on sales and ultra low running costs and 10K off the cost of a Leaf etc.

What would explode EV sales more than anything would be the use of the Left lane on the M50 and Naas road exclusively for electric cars ! hahaha

Sure they could do more I'm not suggesting that but I do think incentives now are good.

heliguyheliguy

Deleted User wrote: »

Free public charging until now had little effect on sales and ultra low running costs and 10K off the cost of a Leaf etc.

What would explode EV sales more than anything would be the use of the Left lane on the M50 and Naas road exclusively for electric cars ! hahaha

Sure they could do more I'm not suggesting that but I do think incentives now are good.

The fact that it was free up to now does not mean that it was adequate.
There have been constant complaints about chargers not being available when needed, for many reasons ie. in-use, not working, ice'd.
How can they think of charging for this on a promise that it will get better in the future, its laughable.

Imagine buying pint, getting handed a half pint and told that if I keep buying them one day soon (I promise) you'll get the full pint! laughable.

stesaurus

heliguyheliguy wrote: »

The fact that it was free up to now does not mean that it was adequate.
There have been constant complaints about chargers not being available when needed, for many reasons ie. in-use, not working, ice'd.
How can they think of charging for this on a promise that it will get better in the future, its laughable.

Imagine buying pint, getting handed a half pint and told that if I keep buying them one day soon (I promise) you'll get the full pint! laughable.

But but but that pint is slightly cheaper from this pub than the one next door. So it's OK to only be given half of what you paid for.

That's pretty much going to be Mad_Lads response. You're wasting your time debating as his style just seems to be to take a contrary opinion and stick to it no matter what.
I like him but he's a bit 'Mad' I guess ;-)

LOL right so I will unsubscribe and give ye and me some peace and let ye blabber on about what ye want to hear !

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

LOL right so I will unsubscribe and give ye and me some peace and let ye blabber on about what ye want to hear !

Thank god ,

By the way this piece

The thing is if you want EV's to become more main stream then those if and buts need to be become less and less and you need to stop putting a single use case forward because for every positive use case there are several negative ones.

Is spot on.

samih

So according to the article on Indo:

Aside from the government's measures to support electric car owners, the ESB has pledged to ramp up the supply of charging points in the coming months. The semi-state body wants to put in place ... 1,500 public charge points nationwide, and 30 fast points, ..."

That sounds very good, i.e. ESB is set to continue to invest on the charging network far more than what the expected revenue is. In other words ESB believes in the electric car sufficiently to continue to invest money from the general profits and therefore considers the charge points to be a part of general electricity network. Let's hope the government will also strive on towards the goal of 200k EVs regardless of which parties are on the driving seat.

Villain

I'm not sure where the 200k cars came from, the last Government promise was 50k cars by 2020 and that was Pat Rabbitte, Alex White is totally ignorant to the topic though as are his political advisers.