ESB public charging plans

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2015/12/04/the-robust-pause-resists-a-robust-el-nio-still-no-global-warming-at-all-for-18-years-9-months/

Facts are facts, dismiss them all you want.

heliguyheliguy

Deleted User wrote: »

Well than you very much for the insult, says a lot more about you to be honest if that's the best you can come up with !

Wasn't really meant as an insult, Just an expression of shock at how far from the truth some of your views are from the available information.

I guess there is a major flaw in how science disseminates information if some members of the public are so detached from reality.

The battle to confuse the situation by vested interests must have more impact than I gave them credit for, It's easy to dismiss the mis-information when it just seems silly.

It all leaves me wondering how can this be corrected, but I fear it is a bigger job than can be achieved in few posts on a forum.

cros13

Deleted User wrote: »

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2015/12/04/the-robust-pause-resists-a-robust-el-nio-still-no-global-warming-at-all-for-18-years-9-months/

Facts are facts, dismiss them all you want.

So... I read that. Most of the data presented was very heavily cherry picked or outright false. The thing I found most interesting was some of the data was actually accurate, in particular data that acknowledged global average temperature has risen since 1950 but it lacked the context that this was a reversal of what should by essentially every other indicator have been a cooling period. It takes a craptonne of energy to turn around the planets atmosphere. The hilarious part is that they then extrapolated the bottom of the bell curve into a rate of increase, which is obviously dishonest.

The turn around on some of denial sites is hilarious...
it's not happening.....it's not happening.....it's not happening.....it's like totally the opposite....it's happening but it's different in some way that makes it not our fault or at the very least makes you wrong in some way.....

right, I'll say no more on the subject.... Just going to leave these here:

http://www.vox.com/2015/12/11/9898098/climate-skeptics-consilience

LOL you can find whatever data you want to find from whatever "pro Warming" site , ( or from whatever pro warmist) with their own cherry picked data.

Yawlboy

I thought this was the Electric Vehicle and Hybrids Thread not Conspiracy Theories :P

davidgdlt

So tinfoil hats aside, any news about the charging plans?

Who cares ? you'll charge at home most of the time anyway.

Villain

Never mind the troll, the CER process will need to be completed before there is any news. With an election coming in the middle of that I wouldn't expect any news before the new Government is formed.

Villain

Deleted User wrote: »

Who cares ? you'll charge at home most of the time anyway.

Actually no I have to correct that, my total cost of home night rate charging for the month of November was €22, so if you add €16.99 just for the ability to use public chargers, then my costs would 77% higher for the month.

But hey if no-one cares about 77% increase.......:rolleyes:

BoatMad

Unlike mad_lad who is howling at the moon in relation to climate change , my position is that there is clearly man made co2 and there is evidence of resulting warming.

Where the science it's not at all settled is what the effects of all of this will be. The theories range from Armageddon to virtually nothing.
We could be in danger of fixing something that turns out to be not much of a problem.

A classic example has been the over focus on c02 ( which is not a pollutant ) emmisuons from cars while ignoring the issues around emissions which are deadly pollutants.

You can always be assured of a good laugh here on Boards, just what I need after 6 12 hr shifts !

Villain

Deleted User wrote: »

You can always be assured of a good laugh here on Boards, just what I need after 6 12 hr shifts !

77% increase on an EV users cost is a good laugh? Only to the deluded imo

DrPhilG

Esb have updated their website to say that charging costs are to be deferred until after consultation with the CER.

Villain

Villain wrote: »

77% increase on an EV users cost is a good laugh? Only to the deluded imo

No you and others that blow it completely out of proportion , that's a laugh. Most charging is done at home, ridiculous. So what if it costs a few quid on the occasional long trip.

If I were to use the DC at Naas 5 days a week for 10 mins a day I pay 81 Euro's PM total inc 17 Pm and 30C/min and for the home leccy and for 135 Kms daily this is far cheaper than diesel and not small mileage.

If it costs me around the same for a couple of trips a year I might take the car on a much longer trip, big deal. Most of my charging comes from the home charger !

Anyone with the 30 Kwh saves more anyone in 3 years with the 60 kwh will save even more because trips to the public chargers will be rare.

cros13

Deleted User wrote: »

No you and others that blow it completely out of proportion , that's a laugh. Most charging is done at home, ridiculous. So what if it costs a few quid on the occasional long trip.

There is an exception.

It's a massive problem for CCS users as ESB has so poorly served us 100% charges are regularly required to reach the next rapid.

A recent trip to Galway would have cost me almost €120 in per minute fees on top of the €16.99.

My answer to that kind of thievery is a promise that if they do introduce those kind of charges I will do everything in my power to make their billing system unworkable. Including but not limited to: card swapping with those of a similar mind, cell jammers near charge points and other measures I'd better not publically admit to.

Cros, you have a Generator, why would you bother waiting for a 100% charge ?

120 Euro's against the total cost per your yearly driving.

Villain

Deleted User wrote: »

No you and others that blow it completely out of proportion , that's a laugh. Most charging is done at home, ridiculous. So what if it costs a few quid on the occasional long trip.

If I were to use the DC at Naas 5 days a week for 10 mins a day I pay 81 Euro's PM total inc 17 Pm and 30C/min and for the home leccy and for 135 Kms daily this is far cheaper than diesel and not small mileage.

If it costs me around the same for a couple of trips a year I might take the car on a much longer trip, big deal. Most of my charging comes from the home charger !

Anyone with the 30 Kwh saves more anyone in 3 years with the 60 kwh will save even more because trips to the public chargers will be rare.

No the issue is people like you who are typical in this country, research something buy into it the never want to see any negatives and blindly back their decision.

You keep saying people will charge mostly at home so why should they pay €17 a month to have the backup plan of public chargers. The 77% increase is a real figure just as your figures above are real and both are just as valid as each other.

I never suggested the 17 PM for light users like myself was fair however if I were to use the network daily it still works out far cheaper than diesel for 650 kms a week over a normal 9-5. And this is only counting work commuting. That's a lot of Kms.

I would pay the 17 Pm only when I need it.

Oafley Jones

Villain wrote: »

No the issue is people like you who are typical in this country, research something buy into it the never want to see any negatives and blindly back their decision.

You keep saying people will charge mostly at home so why should they pay €17 a month to have the backup plan of public chargers. The 77% increase is a real figure just as your figures above are real and both are just as valid as each other.

I've said it before, but free charging was an unsustainable situation going forward. They're a scarce resource and to achieve optimal use they'll need to be priced higher than what it would cost at home. Likewise, the idea of a flat fee is similar idiotic. People will go out of the way to use public chargers in order to gain "value" for their flat fee.

Villain

Oafley Jones wrote: »

I've said it before, but free charging was an unsustainable situation going forward. They're a scarce resource and to achieve optimal use they'll need to be priced higher than what it would cost at home. Likewise, the idea of a flat fee is similar idiotic. People will go out of the way to use public chargers in order to gain "value" for their flat fee.

Yep a cost per Kwh is the way to go, with a timer limit on FCP if they like, that was what ESB ecars proposed on their site when I bought my car. They then took the goal post and moved them into another field!

See Villan we all agree billing per Kwh is the way to go for the Current Gen cars but as I said a while back you're forgetting that if you're paying 30 mins now on a 45 kw charger then 30 mins on a 100 Kw charger will mean you get just over double the Kwh for the same 30 mins but if paying per kwh you'll pay twice or just over because you'll have twice the kwh of the 30 kwh battery and over twice the 24 Kwh.

Of course this depends on the availability of the 100 Kw+ chargers and funding.

Those with the 30 kwh battery will charge faster getting more range for the same time on the charger buy as much as 50-60 Km, so be careful what you wish for !!!

robtri

cros13 wrote: »

T

My answer to that kind of thievery is a promise that if they do introduce those kind of charges I will do everything in my power to make their billing system unworkable. Including but not limited to: card swapping with those of a similar mind, cell jammers near charge points and other measures I'd better not publically admit to.

do u agree with people driving to their local petrol station filling up with petrol and driving off, cause they don't agree with the pricing???

Firblog

Deleted User wrote: »

See Villan we all agree billing per Kwh is the way to go for the Current Gen cars but as I said a while back you're forgetting that if you're paying 30 mins now on a 45 kw charger then 30 mins on a 100 Kw charger will mean you get just over double the Kwh for the same 30 mins but if paying per kwh you'll pay twice or just over because you'll have twice the kwh of the 30 kwh battery and over twice the 24 Kwh.

Of course this depends on the availability of the 100 Kw+ chargers and funding.

Those with the 30 kwh battery will charge faster getting more range for the same time on the charger buy as much as 50-60 Km, so be careful what you wish for !!!

I thought that one of the main reasons to go EV was to be green and help reduce pollution.. surely one of the main tenets of 'being green' is that the polluter pays?
Under the charging per min, the bigger polluter doesn't pay, the person who charges the slowest pays; what's green about that?

cros13

robtri wrote: »

do u agree with people driving to their local petrol station filling up with petrol and driving off, cause they don't agree with the pricing???

That's not a comparable situation.

1. The petrol station charges for the amount of fuel you get not the time spent on the forecourt. ESB wants to charge based on factors largely out of the control of the motorist.

2. The amount of petrol dispensed is verified by an NSAI approved metering mechanism and has specific legal tolerances. ESB are absolutely free to... and do manipulate the amount of power the chargers provide, often by a factor of two.

3. ESB provided written guidance of charges before I purchased my vehicles. That guidance indicated charges ten times lower than those introduced. It also promised more chargers than they have provided. I drove to Berlin in the summer but it's still not possible for me to drive from Dublin to Belfast on ESBs CCS network.

4. Petrol stations generally have multiple pumps and some level of reliability. If they don't pump the fuel they don't get paid. I stopped at two CCS rapid chargers today (out of 23 in the whole country) that were out of order, I queued for 30 minutes for the only one within range that wasn't out of order.

Personally I'm perfectly willing to pay 50-100 times the wholesale cost of the power. Collectively my EVs cost me into six figures, I'm perfectly willing to spend a similar amount to frustrate ESBs plans.

Mainly I'm pissed off because this will damage the EV market. I don't care what they charge as long as it's based on actual power delivered. Anything else divorces entirely how and how far you drive from how much it costs you.

I am one of the complainants the CER.

Firblog

Firblog wrote: »

I thought that one of the main reasons to go EV was to be green and help reduce pollution.. surely one of the main tenets of 'being green' is that the polluter pays?
Under the charging per min, the bigger polluter doesn't pay, the person who charges the slowest pays; what's green about that?

Yes, that's one reason I got the leaf for the reduction in actual pollution. Even though the majority of electricity is produced from gas and 20% coal there are a significant number of nights/days the Leaf is charged with up to 50% wind power. No energy in transporting oil to the refinery and in the refining process and the transportation of petrol/diesel to the petrol stations.

The other reason is I would rather put almost half the savings on petrol/diesel off the payments on the car rather than drive older cars with high mileage.

I think the majority of people are not getting the picture here, you will use the fast chargers a fraction of the amount you will use your home charge point. saving a lot of money over petrol or diesel.

I keep saying if I were to use the fast charger for 10 mins a day to get me 135-150 Kms total kms over a 5 day week it would cost me 81 euro's pm including charging at home and all ESB costs. In diesel that would be 180-200 PM.

If I've to drive a few times a year and it costs as much as diesel then I really don't care because I would really wouldn't mind paying for the privilege of being able to charge on a long drive.

If someone depends solely on the public network then they shouldn't have got an EV in the first place and it's mental to think they could continue to expect free fuel. If someone is prevented from installing a home charge point because of management agencies Co Councils etc then they should not have an EV at this time, this is a political issue that people should be far more vocal about if you ask me ! There are a lot of Leaf drivers that have benefited solely from "free" public charging since 2011.

As I said people should be careful what they wish for and if they really want to pay per Kwh now then they will pay 3 times more when the 60 kwh leaf arrives in just 2 years , of course then you get almost 3 times the range or almost however if paying per min and you are using a 100 Kwh charger then you get 3 times the range for the same cost as charging on a 45 Kw today for a hell of a lot less range.

I'm not saying leaf II will have 100 Kw charging capability but it's highly likely and there is no knowing how fast the ESB will upgrade. But I think under the proposed system we all will stand to benefit in the years to come much more than paying per Kwh because if you are paying per Kwh who's to say what the ESB will charge ? It maybe so that the regulator won't allow them charge more than the cost of charging at home which will mean there will be a high monthly rental, I believe paying per min is the best way to do it.

We do need different packages and options.

The other point worth mentioning is that anyone who gets the 30 Kwh Leaf will benefit by it's ability to charge as fast as the 24 kwh Leaf for more range.

The 60 Kwh will mean most people will rarely see a charge point because you'll have significant amount of charge up to 350 Kms all from your home charge point.

What would be in the interests for the ESB or Electric Ireland would be to offer packages for home charging, cheaper rates , they stand to make a lot of money from this in the years to come. Up to 60 Kwh is a hell of a lot of electricity an even half that per day is a hell of a lot of electricity for one person + house electricity ! I do expect to see Ev packages from the electricity suppliers in the years to come as they realise the gold mine this will be in the future !

nokia69

Deleted User wrote: »

If someone depends solely on the public network then they shouldn't have got an EV

A bit unfair IMO

Deleted User wrote: »

in the first place and it's mental to think they could continue to expect free fuel.

Nobody expects free fuel, everyone is happy to pay for what they use, but what sane person want to be ripped off

Deleted User wrote: »

If someone is prevented from installing a home charge point because of management agencies Co Councils etc then they should not have an EV at this time, this is a political issue that people should be far more vocal about if you ask me ! There are a lot of Leaf drivers that have benefited solely from "free" public charging since 2011.

the free charging was never going to last forever, anyone buying a Leaf knew that from the very start

Deleted User wrote: »

As I said people should be careful what they wish for and if they really want to pay per Kwh now then they will pay 3 times more when the 60 kwh leaf arrives in just 2 years , of course then you get almost 3 times the range or almost however if paying per min and you are using a 100 Kwh charger then you get 3 times the range for the same cost as charging on a 45 Kw today for a hell of a lot less range.

paying per Kwh is the fairest way for everyone, most people with a 60Kwh leaf will only use a public charger a few times a year, if ever

Deleted User wrote: »

What would be in the interests for the ESB or Electric Ireland would be to offer packages for home charging, cheaper rates , they stand to make a lot of money from this in the years to come. Up to 60 Kwh is a hell of a lot of electricity an even half that per day is a hell of a lot of electricity for one person + house electricity ! I do expect to see Ev packages from the electricity suppliers in the years to come as they realise the gold mine this will be in the future !

just because someone has a 60Kwh Leaf does not mean they will drive the car to empty every day, in fact my guess is they will do more or less the same milage as other Leaf drivers

cros13

Deleted User wrote: »

Even though the majority of electricity is produced from gas and 20%

Even overall that's not quite accurate anymore, even excluding time of use: http://smartgriddashboard.eirgrid.com/#all/generation?scroll=fuel

With the additional renewables coming online in 2016, more than 50% of overall electricity production will be from renewables.

The real problem for Ireland is that the EU want 16% of total energy consumption to be from renewables by 2020.... and that means a massive electrification program.

Deleted User wrote: »

if they really want to pay per Kwh now then they will pay 3 times more when the 60 kwh leaf arrives

Untrue, consumption is still what matters. The 60kWh Leaf will only differ due to aerodynamics or weight.

Deleted User wrote: »

The 60 Kwh will mean most people will rarely see a charge point because you'll have significant amount of charge up to 350 Kms all from your home charge point.

True. I'm moving to Portlaoise in April. That's going to eliminate almost all of my rapid charging as home and work charging will meet 99% of my needs. A prospective battery upgrade in summer will reduce my rapid charging to probably in the region of 10 times a year. You only need enough capacity to cover your regular journeys to justify the EV.

cros13

cros13 wrote: »

The real problem for Ireland is that the EU want 16% of total energy consumption to be from renewables by 2020.... and that means a massive electrification program.

Well there is no sign of them trying to get diesel fuel eliminated from our streets so they are obviously not that serious about it.

cros13 wrote: »

Untrue, consumption is still what matters. The 60kWh Leaf will only differ due to aerodynamics or weight.

So having 60 Kwh has nothing to do with the massive range increase ? If anything the 60 Kwh will be far heavier than the current leaf unless they're using carbon.

cros13 wrote: »

True. I'm moving to Portlaoise in April. That's going to eliminate almost all of my rapid charging as home and work charging will meet 99% of my needs. A prospective battery upgrade in summer will reduce my rapid charging to probably in the region of 10 times a year. You only need enough capacity to cover your regular journeys to justify the EV.

Yes but the point being that on the longer trips you will use the chargers and if sales greatly pick up after the 60 Kwh arrives then most likely there will be a big demand for chargers as people travel around. So if the ESb do have 100 Kw chargers which is the next step and the Leaf can charge at 100 Kw, no reason why it won't be able then under the current system you'll get about twice the range for the same amount of time on the charger or a bit more.

The 30 Kwh leaf gets from 7-90 % in about 33 mins V the Leaf 18-80% in 30 mins, that's a decent amount of extra range for the same time on the charger or almost which if paying per Kwh will cost you more.

My whole point to this is that if you want to pay per Kwh it's not going to work out any cheaper anyway so if you are paying under the proposed system it will actually work out that you get twice as much for the same time on the charger on a 100 Kw charger, 100 Kw + is the future and there won't be mass transition to EV in the next 5 years so by the time a lot of people start changing there should be a good few 100 Kw chargers there.

Question is, who's going to pay for this upgrades ?

nokia69

nokia69 wrote: »

just because someone has a 60Kwh Leaf does not mean they will drive the car to empty every day, in fact my guess is they will do more or less the same milage as other Leaf drivers

Indeed , the 60 Kwh will mean most people will rarely use the Public network. Part of the point I was making. I bet the majority of leaf sales in 2016 will be the 30 Kwh and when the 60 Kwh comes out I bet there will be few 30 Kwh sold. So more and more charging will be done at home costing very little and I can also see the energy companies competing and offer reduced costs for EV owners as more and more people change to EV the money to be made is absolutely astronomical. I'll certainly be calling for a reduced Kwh rate in January !

It's likely there will be a 40 Kwh Leaf or maybe 30, 40, 50 and 60 who knows but it is almost certain there will be multiple options and people can choose depending on needs but I would imagine that the cheaper cost to buy the 30-40 kwh would probably mean poorer resale value, no one knows yet of course.

The other point I'm making is that most people charge at home as it is now for the majority of their driving and if it works out as expensive as diesel for a couple of trips a year I don't see the big deal if most of my charging comes from 8.5 C/kwh, that's the cheapest form of motoring you can get.

I don't think it's unfair in the slightest to say anyone who has no home charging shouldn't have an EV, too much time wasted at fast chargers, having your home as your own ultra cheap fuel station is one of the greatest things about EV ownership. I would not have the Leaf without home charging unless I had the 30 kwh Leaf and knew I could make it to work and back on one charge but even then it would be foolish to buy an EV based on the ability to charge at work only then relying on the public network for the rest.

There is very few of us early adopters that will keep our current 24 Kwh leafs in 2018 and I expect many 30 kwh owners will change too so if we use the public network less and less that means the ESB will get less and less unless there is serious uptake in electric cars that is, so there will be the need for funding to come from somewhere to upgrade the network to 100 kw chargers and have multiple chargers on site.

Part of the reason for the ESB introducing the charges was to greatly enhance the efficiency of the current network to stop people using the network as their sole means of charging. It wasn't just about making money.

nokia69

Deleted User wrote: »

It's likely there will be a 40 Kwh Leaf or maybe 30, 40, 50 and 60 who knows but it is almost certain there will be multiple options and people can choose depending on needs but I would imagine that the cheaper cost to buy the 30-40 kwh would probably mean poorer resale value, no one knows yet of course.

I agree, I expect to see far more battery options in the future

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't think it's unfair in the slightest to say anyone who has no home charging shouldn't have an EV, too much time wasted at fast chargers, having your home as your own ultra cheap fuel station is one of the greatest things about EV ownership. I would not have the Leaf without home charging unless I had the 30 kwh Leaf and knew I could make it to work and back on one charge but even then it would be foolish to buy an EV based on the ability to charge at work only then relying on the public network for the rest.

this will only be a problem for a while, I see your point about people wasting time at chargers, but in the future I think there will be far less problems with installing chargers at apartments or rented houses, so it won't be a problem in the long term IMO

Deleted User wrote: »

Part of the reason for the ESB introducing the charges was to greatly enhance the efficiency of the current network to stop people using the network as their sole means of charging. It wasn't just about making money.

Maybe but I doubt it, this is Ireland after all, it just looked like another short sighted rip-off to me

any kind of fair payment system for public charging would greatly enhance the efficiency of the public charging network, no need to turn it into a scam