ESB public charging plans

nokia69

17 euro a month is a rip off its that simple, just because it may work out cheaper than petrol for some can't change that fact

they make plenty from people charging at home, this is just pure short sighted greed

Most of charging will be done at home, so I would only be using the network for the long trips and I'm still saving a hell of a lot over petrol or diesel even with the 200 yearly charge.

Lets be quiet clear here, without the network there wouldn't be any of us driving electric really, though now that I have the work charge point it would be possible.

The Network isn't cheap and it won't be cheap to maintain and just like the mobile phone companies, there is always a lot less return on profit on a small Island with a small population.

As I said if and this is the big "IF" , if the network is freed up from hoggers then this imo is no bad thing if a lot more of us can use the charge points when we need them because you can be damn sure that when billing starts there'll only be the people using the chargers that need them and I bet there will be a lot more queues as people get the most free Kwh they can before the billing starts !

There will be many more chargers needed in the future and the funds have to come from somewhere. Though with the current numbers of electrics on the road I highly doubt at the prices mentioned that there's be many chargers funded by this.

Villain

ESB made a profit of 415 million last year. I don't think €200 a year from under 1000 people is going to make much difference.

However adding incentives to build EV ownership numbers for the long term may, they are doing the opposite with this plan and remember the EU funded many of the FCPs

Villain

Villain wrote: »

However adding incentives to build EV ownership numbers for the long term may, they are doing the opposite with this plan and remember the EU funded many of the FCPs

They installed the Network and quiet a good one if you ask me for the numbers of electrics on the road, it needs to be maintained, and more chargers added as more electrics are bought.

That's hardly doing the opposite to encourage more electrics.

Benny_Cake

[Deleted User] wrote: »

They installed the Network and quiet a good one if you ask me for the numbers of electrics on the road, it needs to be maintained, and more chargers added as more electrics are bought.

That's hardly doing the opposite to encourage more electrics.

Be interested to know how charging the relatively tiny number of EV owners in this country €17 a month will cover the cost of maintaining and rolling out the network.

I have no problem in paying a reasonable per unit charge to access the public network, on the few occasions when I need to use it. But this proposed system will achieve nothing but discourage people from going electric.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

They installed the Network and quiet a good one if you ask me for the numbers of electrics on the road, it needs to be maintained, and more chargers added as more electrics are bought.

That's hardly doing the opposite to encourage more electrics.

Yes but this is not the way to do it.

DrPhilG

If the rumours are true and it's €17 a month and around €5 for a full fast charge, then this system will cost me in the region of €500 a year more.

€204 for the fee/tax to own an EV, and about €300 in costs from using FCPs.

Overall I still stand to save just under €2k a year compared to my old diesel.

But that's for me, who does a fair bit of fast charging and 5 or 6 long (over 100 mile) trips per year.

Someone earlier posted that they have had a Leaf for a year and used 99% home charging. Is it fair that they also have to shell out over €200 a year as a fee for the 1% of the time they need to use a FCP?

The proposed system is stupid and counter productive. And to make it worse ESB have ploughed into it without any common sense, any real consultation with the users, or any thought for the long term impact on EV growth.

Some will always want to drive an EV for environmental reasons. I would say that most are like me, and make the decision for purely financial reasons. That financial reasoning gets a lot closer for most people when you add in an extra €500 a year.

BoatMad

At 5 euros for a typical FCP session, that would approach the cost of diesel for a small modern diesel of similar range.

This would be my concern, that the ESB would ruin the economics of the EV

Villain

I spoke with ecars this morning, they said the flyer was a draft and not final details, they will be contacting EV customers in next week and hope to have multiple offerings.

samih

The problem with the EV network, I think, is the small number of current users. This will make financing the charger network very difficult unless the number of vehicles dramatically increase.

Even with the proposed payment structure the ecars will surely make a loss. I can't actually see how anybody can currently make money without actually charging 10 times the proposed amount per user. So the key here is to have users to get used to the idea that driving for free is not sustainable. At the same time if using chargers will cost the same/more than it would cost to use an ICE they nobody will use them.

I propose following charging pricing:

Subscription with a smart card:
1. Small Fixed monthly fee like the proposed 16.99/month
2. Rapid charging at your current domestic rate + 10 percent. Additional time component for usage over 30 minutes, say 10 EUR/h
3. Fast chargers: domestic rate + 10 percent. Per day rate of 10 EUR after first 10 hours at night/6 hours at day.
Capped at 80 EUR/month per card.

Pay as you go using mobile app:
1. Rapid charging at 10 EUR/h
2. Fast charging at 2 EUR/h
Capped at 100 EUR/month per car (Not sure if each car have an unique identifier).

nokia69

samih wrote: »

Even with the proposed payment structure the ecars will surely make a loss. I can't actually see how anybody can currently make money without actually charging 10 times the proposed amount per user. So the key here is to have users to get used to the idea that driving for free is not sustainable. At the same time if using chargers will cost the same/more than it would cost to use an ICE they nobody will use them.

but every electric car gets plugged in every night, thats where they make the money

over the course of it life an EV must be worth thousands to the ESB, if they support EVs with fair prices they will do very well

of course free charging is not sustainable and has to end, it was always just a nice perk for the early adaptors

samih

nokia69 wrote: »

but every electric car gets plugged in every night, thats where they make the money

over the course of it life an EV must be worth thousands to the ESB, if they support EVs with fair prices they will do very well

of course free charging is not sustainable and has to end, it was always just a nice perk for the early adaptors

The electricity companies make many selling power of course. You are responsible for your own electricity setup at home. If the consumer unit catches fire you need to fix it yourself, same for your home EVSE. For the other issues there is the standing charge which covers electrical company for their expenses.

There has to be some subscription charge for the EV customers. Otherwise the rest of the electricity users need to subsidy EVs which is not OK going forward.

DrPhilG

nokia69 wrote: »

over the course of it life an EV must be worth thousands to the ESB, if they support EVs with fair prices they will do very well

Exactly.

When public charging comes in and I end up doing 90% of my charging at home, it will be around €35 a month on my bill.

Multiply that by the 1000 EV drivers in Ireland and you have the ESB making a substantial extra income every month.

Surely it makes more sense in the long term to increase EV driving customers rather than just bleed out the ones they have?

samih

DrPhilG wrote: »

Exactly.

When public charging comes in and I end up doing 90% of my charging at home, it will be around €35 a month on my bill.

Multiply that by the 1000 EV drivers in Ireland and you have the ESB making a substantial extra income every month.

Surely it makes more sense in the long term to increase EV driving customers rather than just bleed out the ones they have?

Until a large portion of traffic is EV and the price of rapid chargers reaches the same cost per fill than a forecourt pump the fixed charges for providing for us will have to accounted for.

If you are e.g. a customer of Airtricity and pay for electricity to them how is ESB going to finance the cost of fitting the charging infrastructure. What if the EV customer is off grid altogether? How are they going to pay if they have no electricity bill?

Edit: The 35 a month per driver is currently around 425k per annum. So that pays for either for 4 rapid chargers or ESB engineers per year. So say 2 chargers and 2 engineers. Doesn't sound a lot. But that's what your electricity supplier is getting. ESB networks are going to get a small fraction of that money.

http://www.esb.ie/electric-cars/electric-car-charging/IT-charging-payment-system.jsp

The e-charging IT system gives drivers access to the public charge point network.
An online account will enable you to pay for public charge points. Your charge point access card will come as part of your welcome pack when you register for ecar charging. You will log into your account, choose your supplier, pre-pay €10 or €15 using your debit or credit card and away you go. You can then check your balance and top-up at any time. The system can even recall your normal charging pattern and let you know, via your mobile phone, when you need to top-up. You can see what the best online electricity tariff is and change energy supplier at any time with no penalty.
[End Quote]

Notice this bit

"You can see what the best online electricity tariff is and change energy supplier at any time with no penalty." ? seems like billing per Kwh ?

I see no mention of a 17 Euro PM charge ? or a set 5 euro's per charge.

stesaurus

There's money to be made in EV charging infrastructure. There's quite a few companies out there in Europe and the UK so clearly even with low numbers of uptakes there is potential for profits. This will multiply exponentially as uptake grows and economy of scale kicks in regarding hardware. They are sitting on a future goldmine if they handle it correctly.

I have no problem paying ECARS for a service but they better not start trying to gouge people due to their monopoly. The consumer doesn't have a choice here. They really need to think long term on this.

By the time there is mass transition to EV in Ireland EV range will be at least 200 miles ans the need for public charging will be greatly reduced.

I can't see Irish people give up the Diesel obsession any time soon.

heliguyheliguy

Deleted User wrote: »

http://www.esb.ie/electric-cars/electric-car-charging/IT-charging-payment-system.jsp

The e-charging IT system gives drivers access to the public charge point network.
An online account will enable you to pay for public charge points. Your charge point access card will come as part of your welcome pack when you register for ecar charging. You will log into your account, choose your supplier, pre-pay €10 or €15 using your debit or credit card and away you go. You can then check your balance and top-up at any time. The system can even recall your normal charging pattern and let you know, via your mobile phone, when you need to top-up. You can see what the best online electricity tariff is and change energy supplier at any time with no penalty.
[End Quote]

Notice this bit

"You can see what the best online electricity tariff is and change energy supplier at any time with no penalty." ? seems like billing per Kwh ?

I see no mention of a 17 Euro PM charge ? or a set 5 euro's per charge.

That sounds prefect much better than the flyer would indicate.

samih

I agree that ESB should not be gouging the customer but at the same time they are not a charity and unless a sustainable business model is created for them they'll get tired of maintaining a pet project once the public money dries.

For the charger network to be maintained even at current level we need to pay our way. Once ecars set in place a sane pricing structure that guarantees a steady income for the company it will benefit everybody, especially the folk that are currently contemplating of making the jump but are on the fence due to muddy future of ecar pricing.

To add another aspect to this. The current reality is that Leaf is a 70 g/km CO2 emitting vehicle in the current Irish electricity grid. So better than ICE but not that much. But there is no reason really why it should a fraction of price to drive an EV compared to an ICE. So electricity companies need to invest on cleaner forms of generation.

Villain

I had a long conversation with head of ESB Ecars today and there will be more options than the flyer had and they will be communicating with customers within a week.

I outlined my use case and my opinions to him but I am meant to be meeting him next week for a meeting so I can relay the opinions of others here too.

anothernight

Villain wrote: »

I spoke with ecars this morning, they said the flyer was a draft and not final details, they will be contacting EV customers in next week and hope to have multiple offerings.

I wonder why the flyer was given out to dealers at all, if it was just a draft. Seems like a really stupid business mistake to make.

Villain

Villain wrote: »

I had a long conversation with head of ESB Ecars today and there will be more options than the flyer had and they will be communicating with customers within a week.

I outlined my use case and my opinions to him but I am meant to be meeting him next week for a meeting so I can relay the opinions of others here too.

I kept saying for people to wait for official confirmation.

Villain

Deleted User wrote: »

I kept saying for people to wait for official confirmation.

Indeed but as I said to Gareth a lack of communication creates a void and then when a piece of information like the flyer is found it fills that void.

My major concern after speaking with him was that he wouldn't commit to having a Pay as you go charging option so while there may be options I'm not sure how good those options will be!

toadfly

There is not a hope I will pay €5 for a fast charge, my trip Galway to Dublin is just about bearable as the fuel is free, if I get charged to use the fast chargers I will just bring the ICE. Cuts the time travelling drastically and not much more expensive.

samih

toadfly wrote: »

There is not a hope I will pay €5 for a fast charge, my trip Galway to Dublin is just about bearable as the fuel is free, if I get charged to use the fast chargers I will just bring the ICE. Cuts the time travelling drastically and not much more expensive.

5 eur per 80 km doesn't sound too hot alright in case of current crop of EVs. As a matter of fact it would be an absolute rip off. Will be much better though in the future if you were able to charge another 300 km of charge instead of 100 km in the same time frame. Due to different vehicle parameters charger pricing should be related to the units charged while discouraging overstaying at the chargers.

@55

First charge will take you 110 kms average from home one fast charge about 90-100 Kms average there after to 80%

Still a good bit cheaper than diesel @55 mpg.

I can't see a flat 5 Euro's for a fast charge, no one arrives with 0% so that would mean they charge for any length of time and that's not going to happen.

Anyway, it's all speculation until the announcement.

nokia69

anothernight wrote: »

I wonder why the flyer was given out to dealers at all, if it was just a draft. Seems like a really stupid business mistake to make.

flying a kite maybe

BoatMad

While several people have mentioned there may be more price plan options , the esb have not denied the 17 a month charge.

Mad lad , your logic is entirely flawed. Firstly long term home charging will not be a runner do to increasing charge time. Try 100% charging a 60 kW battery on a 16 A service. It's just not a runner.

The future is high capacity fast charging. Just like teslas supercharging network ( which is essentially free )

In my view the esb is loosing the plot. A fixed 17 euro charge might be acceptable if the FCP access was free. ( even for a further few years ). But a monthly fixed AND a variable charge will kill the marketplace, making EVs as dear to drive as small diesels. This coupled with the 20 % purchase lift , is a killer. ( this is before the inconvienence factors )

In my view the esb should allow free access , or sub economic access until we see 250 mile EVs and we see a full rollout of fcps. We also need to see how the ev market develops in the current economic situation

The esb is acting in advance of business logic. Most of the charging infrastructure was very heavily grant aided. This is simply the wrong time to monetise the charging infrastructure

BoatMad

Villain wrote: »

Indeed but as I said to Gareth a lack of communication creates a void and then when a piece of information like the flyer is found it fills that void.

My major concern after speaking with him was that he wouldn't commit to having a Pay as you go charging option so while there may be options I'm not sure how good those options will be!

It's the esb , remember this is one of the dearest countries in relation to electricity , there will be price gouging.

The esb knows it has the ev population over the preverbial barrel.

The fact is with these charges , and I was told that night rate in the future may be curtailed as well ( moving to more like economy 7 ) we will rapidly see EVs costing similar euros per 100 Kim as small modern diesels.

Then the non fanboy Ev market vanishes , never to return

The USA will reach oil self sufficiency in two to three years , we will be awash with crude oil and prices will continue to drop

Unless the esb as the effective monopoly generator is prepared to make EVs charging cost effective for users , the " revolution " will be still born.

samih

BoatMad wrote: »

Mad lad , your logic is entirely flawed. Firstly long term home charging will not be a runner do to increasing charge time. Try 100% charging a 60 kW battery on a 16 A service. It's just not a runner.

I need 40 percent/11 kWh of my battery for the return trip to work. In 60 kWh car I would need 15 percent/11 kWh daily so I could easily top up the battery every second night as I currently do. Don't see this as a major issue. If I updated the EVSE to a 7.4 kW model it would be even better. I mean how much more than 60 kWh you reckon the batteries will grow to. I don't really see much point in an EV with a 1000 km range for example.